Seriously...what do y'all think of this?  Does this make sense?

Post Edited (One) : 4/4/2007 9:35:41 AM (GMT-5)

Question. I know that the dictionary definition of hate is intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury.  An expression of that would be "record keeping."  But I wonder if when we degrade people or dehumanize them or use people i.e. manipulate, that that is hatred expressed in another form.  Yes, sometimes manipulation happens and the person doesn't have the dictionary hatred on the front burner.  However, maybe on some subconscious level hatred is actually driving the manipulation such that it dehumanizes the other.

Also, say someone punches you in the face.  At some point thereafter, you are going to have a dictionary definition of hatred even if it is for a minimal amount of time.  Now if you are "record keeping" you are obviously hating.  But say you forgive that person, and you make attempts to right the wrongs and reconcile.  You are not hating in that instance.  However, say someone keeps punching you in the face.  Now if after you have made attempts at reconciliation you don't reconcile but they continue to punch you in the face, at some point you are going to have the dictionary definition of hatred.  Those feelings will crop up.  Now, I'm not talking about holding on to the hatred and revenge (Spiderman 3 looks like it's going to be an awesome movie on this), but what would you say to walking away from the person and the situation such that you are no longer being dehumanized by them.  Healing is what it is.  It can be fast and total.  But in most cases it is slow and long.

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 4/4/2007 9:45:10 AM (GMT-5)

One said:  From what I hear you saying, it's key what a person wills to do once they experience the feelings of hatred.

From what I'm hearing you say, ONCE someone experiences feelings of hatred they are not loving Jesus.  Not talking about "holding on" or "keeping records." Would you say that that person is not loving Jesus in that instance?  See, 'cause I cannot separate so easily the feelings of hurt and the accompanying feelings of hatred.  It seems to me that both are intertwined.

What do you say about "working through your issues?"  Someone desires to love Jesus with all they are, but has struggled with numbness toward those who have hurt them (that's a biggie for me.  I kinda get this "Deer in the headlights look").  I would like to believe that Jesus knows how we have been wired.  And that forgiveness is a process that can take a long time.  So they will struggle with feelings of hate.  On and off.  Sometimes coming in waves and torrents.  Other times, little ripples on the silent pond of our hearts.  Basically, would you say anyone that "struggles" with ill feelings is not loving Jesus?

What do you say about "working through your issues?" Someone desires to love Jesus with all they are, but has struggled with numbness toward those who have hurt them (that's a biggie for me. I kinda get this "Deer in the headlights look". I would like to believe that Jesus knows how we have been wired. And that forgiveness is a process that can take a long time. So they will struggle with feelings of hate. On and off. Sometimes coming in waves and torrents. Other times, little ripples on the silent pond of our hearts. Basically, would you say anyone that "struggles" with ill feelings is not loving Jesus?

Post Edited (One) : 4/4/2007 10:47:55 AM (GMT-5)

Post Edited (One) : 4/4/2007 6:53:16 PM (GMT-5)

One: in his book, Knowing The Unknowable God, James Lucas makes a case that the Bible depicts God both hating and loving evildoers. In fact, King David states "Do I not hate those who hate you, oh Lord, and adhor those who rise up against you?" While most of the verses are from the Psalms and the Old Testament I think CHristians, by and large, do not take them seriously because it is easier to not deal with the paradoxes of God. Its easier to believe God just wants us to go around lovin'everybody equally. But when viewed acturately the Bible does not depict God as being that simple, nor the Christian walk that easily explained.

While I wouldn't put it as haboring hate in the heart, I do think Lucas makes a great case that the Bible calls us to love and pray for OUR enemies and, at the same time, have a holy hate for God's enemies. Novel concept yet scriptural nonetheless.

To put it another way: I believe it is possible for a person to have the Spirit of Christ and hate God's enemies.

I have never understand why people feel that God's love must be unconditional to have true validity. True love always requires something from the person loved, because true love wishes for that person the best. No, I don't believe in God's unconditional love and the Bible doesn't describe it as such. The Bible describes God's love as unfailing. There is a major difference.

Post Edited (feelinahole) : 4/5/2007 1:13:40 AM (GMT-5)

Post Edited (One) : 4/5/2007 4:42:21 PM (GMT-5)

Post Edited (One) : 4/5/2007 4:43:40 PM (GMT-5)

One: I am usually hesitant to use bulletin boards as a forum to dialogue on subjects such as love and hate, given their inherant limitations. I will, however, try my best to give you a general answer to the scriptures cited rather than each particular one.

There is no doubt that we are called to love our neighbors and love our brothers and sisters. The Bible teaches this; however, the question of how this is accomplished is much more difficult to discern. My own take is that, within scripture, there is a great difference bewtween how we love those who are our brothers and sisters in Christ and those who are active enemies of God. I think the problem this poses for Christians of today is a inconsistant view of what love entails. Love, in essense, is either relational or non-relational. Christians err when they do not seperate the two.

We, as Christians, are in relational love with God. Therefore, we are loved by God differently then those who are not in a relationship with God. There is no way around that fact. It offends we deeply that there are Christians out there who believe we should love our neighbors in the same sense as our brothers in Christ. What nonsense!

Therefore the love we have for our Christian brethen is greater and deeper than those who are not in Christ. As the epistles are written specifically to help Christians live a godly life, they do not apply to non-Christians. The actions described within them are how we are to act toward those who are followers like we are, and not about how we are, in general, to act towards non-Christians. They describe living within a community of Christians, not the world. As such, of course, we should not have hatred towards each other. And I do not believe we should harbor hatred in out hearts. I would argue, however, that hating God's enemies is not harboring hatred in our enemies.  You are confusing the two: God's enemies are our enemies in the sense that we love what God loves and hates what God hates. But they are not our enemies in the sense of having offended us personally. So there is a difference.

I have no problem with actively hating those who have shown themselves to be opposed to God, have built up a lifetime of opposing God and seek to tear down God's kingdom. Christians of today err in the sense that they do not discern between those who are trapped in sin and those who rejoice in sin, wallow in sin and are in active rebellion against God. Those we, as Christians, should actively oppose. King David, a man after God's own heart, had no problem hating.

Actually, two comments posted are examples of what Iam talking about. Brandon makes the statement that he doesn't like the term "God's enemies." I would say what does that matter? Is God in the business of making us comfortable and feeling good about who he is? But, of course, Brandon again confuses what I am saying because he confuses those who are actively opposing God's kingdom, knowing full well they are, with those who are sinners, yet are actively seeking God's kingdom. God is not about the business of reconciling enemies. What a short-sighted statement, as if that were the only thing that makes God God. God is about the business of being who he is, whatever that may entail, and much of it is none of our business. Many times when I read these posts I get the idea that God's sole reason for existance is to serve us, as if salvation and love were just about us and God were nothing of a side product of the process.  But nothing could be further from the truth. God is our enemy because we are sinners and God hates sin. However you put it it comes out the same.

At the same time, Jefscott make the statement that he wouldn't carry the example of King David too far. What exactly does that mean? Was David lying? Was God wrong in not condemning David for hating? If Christians are going to treat the Old Testament with intergrity they need to stop reinterpreting it in the light of what makes them feel comfortable and learn to ask what exactly is it saying, not what do I feel comfortable with what it is saying. If we are to take seriously that Jesus is God, the second person of the Trinity, then we have to be honest with ourselves and admit that Jesus, as God, okayed some pretty extreme things in the Old Testament, that cannot be explained away just because Jesus acted in a certain way in the New Testament. Otherwise, we might as well throw the whole Old Testament out as a piece of out-of-date literature and simple keep the New Testament as scripture.

I find it ironic that Christians will condemn terrorists as wrong for using violence yet will not look honestly at the record of their own God in the Old Testament. For me, I am willing to accept that God owes me absolutely nothing, that He will, upon occasion, act in ways that are hard to stomach (for me), and that, he owes me no explanation. Yes, God is about grace. But his grace is given in a complete freedom that is totally unmerited. At the same time, that freedom gives him the right to judge those he deems are his enemies, regardless of whether I or anyone else like it. AS Christians we need to take seriously the fact that God judges, both those who love him (to purify them) and those who don't (to bring out true righteousness). If we lose that, we have lost all of hope of justice.

I do find it interesting on a sight dedicated to open theism, where Christians supposedly believe in trying to find the true literal meaning behind the texts could so easily dismiss the meaning of said texts.

Post Edited (jefscott) : 4/6/2007 7:51:29 PM (GMT-5)