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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 6/8/2007 11:25 AM (GMT -6) |   | Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.
By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.
By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.
By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.
And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were put to death by stoning; they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/8/2007 11:30 AM (GMT -6) | | D, I think there was another thread in which you said that if someone were to hurt your boys and the only thing you could do, the only option left was to take the perp out you would do it. Now you are saying you would stand by and let it happen? You are right. It's unfortunate, but the best thing is bad SHORT TERM consequences. And that is better than LONG TERM consequences.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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One Love
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| Posted 6/8/2007 11:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
D, I think there was another thread in which you said that if someone were to hurt your boys and the only thing you could do, the only option left was to take the perp out you would do it. Now you are saying you would stand by and let it happen? You are right. It's unfortunate, but the best thing is bad SHORT TERM consequences. And that is better than LONG TERM consequences.
What's most important in ANY SITUATION, Brandon, is discerning the Father's working in that situation, not the preservation of human life. Many times, discerning one will LEAD to the other. But one must be vigilant and ready to die (and let death happen) if that's what that situation requires.
I was too blinded by my narcissistic, worldly attachments to the inaccurate ideas of "family" to see this before.
If I create a habit in myself of trying to co-mingle temporal self-preservation with unconditionally seeking and following the will of God, not only will I be self-deceived, but I will end up hurting Kingdom activity in the long term if left to continue.
That's why we need the renewing of the mind.
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 6/8/2007 11:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
I'm talking about using force to save ANOTHER.
All we need is the power of influence (which can be what we call "force" ) to discern what's going on and pull out the possibility of saving another that already exists in the situation itself. God can give us the WISDOM to tap into those possibilities that our natural animalistic "limbic brain" minds don't want to conceptualize. I don't trust my own natural mind to see things ACCURATELY ENOUGH to tell if killing them is the "only option." Only divine wisdom will do. (James) God will let us see how much influence and in form it should take. Will it be me jumping in front of the gun and dying for the children? Will it be me stripping the gun from the assailant? Will it be me saying "God really loves you"? I don't know. God does. And I can trust that.
Sometimes the "force" needed to restrain a amazingly dangerous situation is a soft word.
"Peace, be still."
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/9/2007 7:35 PM (GMT -6) | | D, I hear what you are saying. Let me ask you this. Seeing as we want to discern God's voice in a particular situation, could you not agree that God may be telling you to kill the perpetrator (as you alluded to earlier in the other thread)? If so, would that not rule out absolute pacificism as noted by jefscot (which by the way, seems to be more like a passivity)?
You also say, "Many times, discerning one will LEAD to the other. But one must be vigilant and ready to die (and let death happen) if that's what that situation requires."
You seem to be take it for granted that you are listening to the Spirit and having the ability to discern, that is trust your faculties (natural mind) in a particular situation. In other words, you are trusting your faculties enough to know what a sitution requires. The opposite of what you said before. But it also seems that to the extent that the situation REQUIRES a particular action that that rules out the Spirit. Am I making sense here?
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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One Love
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| Posted 6/9/2007 7:54 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
You also say, "Many times, discerning one will LEAD to the other. But one must be vigilant and ready to die (and let death happen) if that's what that situation requires."
You seem to be take it for granted that you are listening to the Spirit and having the ability to discern, that is trust your faculties (natural mind) in a particular situation. In other words, you are trusting your faculties enough to know what a sitution requires. The opposite of what you said before. But it also seems that to the extent that the situation REQUIRES a particular action that that rules out the Spirit. Am I making sense here?
Brother, I'm afraid that my communication was inadequate. It seems like I gave the impression of saying that I would determine for myself a situation's requirements...and that's not what I meant.
From my perspective, that "if that's what that situation requires" was assuming that God himself would be the determiner and revealer of that information. I would look for what the Father was doing in that situation, trusting God for the wisdom. And, if in my submitting to the Lord's will, my death was necessary, then that's what that situation required.
Just wanted to clarify that for you, bro.
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/10/2007 7:06 AM (GMT -6) | | UNISON: Brother, I'm afraid that my communication was inadequate. It seems like I gave the impression of saying that I would determine for myself a situation's requirements...and that's not what I meant.
From my perspective, that "if that's what that situation requires" was assuming that God himself would be the determiner and revealer of that information. I would look for what the Father was doing in that situation, trusting God for the wisdom. And, if in my submitting to the Lord's will, my death was necessary, then that's what that situation required.
Just wanted to clarify that for you, bro.
Brandon: When you say "the determiner" of that information, do you mean that God could be the one orchestrating said events such that your death may be necessary? It seems to be what you are saying as then you finish by saying, "then that's what that situation required." I can jump on board that wisdom requires trusting God (though I'm not certain that we can be certain that we are in fact submitting to God's will, which is faith right?). But the other question is, do you rule out that God might in fact be calling you fatally wound the perpetrator? How 'bout, "And, if in my submitting to the Lord's will, the perpetrator's death was necessary, then that's what that situation required."
See, if you were before a court of law, and it was revealed that you stood passively by because "you were obeying God's voice" well I have to tell you D, that most likely wouldn't fly. And that is why pacificism is on a spectrum from Zach's "do nothing" to your "non-violent" resistance and so on. Now you may say that spending time in jail for the rest of your life would be the "cost of obeying the Lord" but that SEEMS like a bad long term consequence for such behavior. Not to mention that it is seemingly not "the most loving thing to do."
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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One Love
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| Posted 6/10/2007 8:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon (emphasis mine):
When you say "the determiner" of that information, do you mean that God could be the one orchestrating said events such that your death may be necessary? It seems to be what you are saying as then you finish by saying, "then that's what that situation required." I can jump on board that wisdom requires trusting God (though I'm not certain that we can be certain that we are in fact submitting to God's will, which is faith right?).
After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.' "
When we heard this, we and the people there pleaded with Paul not to go up to Jerusalem. Then Paul answered, "Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." When he would not be dissuaded, we gave up and said, "The Lord's will be done."
I have to say that the same thing may be possible for me.
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Brandon:
But the other question is, do you rule out that God might in fact be calling you fatally wound the perpetrator? How 'bout, "And, if in my submitting to the Lord's will, the perpetrator's death was necessary, then that's what that situation required."
In my mind, one doesn't "rule out" anything. I have the belief that if a person is genuinely seeking ONLY the furthering of God's will and Kingdom in all situations, that God will give the person wisdom of what to do. As we submit all things to the Holy Spirit...and make sure to control our animalistic self-preservation instincts...I'm sure God will help us either overcome our trials or endure unto death well. After we follow that, it will be our responsibility to deal with the consequences of our actions...knowing that we have honestly sought to display God's love and power in a given situation.
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Brandon:
See, if you were before a court of law, and it was revealed that you stood passively by because "you were obeying God's voice" well I have to tell you D, that most likely wouldn't fly. And that is why pacificism is on a spectrum from Zach's "do nothing" to your "non-violent" resistance and so on. Now you may say that spending time in jail for the rest of your life would be the "cost of obeying the Lord" but that SEEMS like a bad long term consequence for such behavior. Not to mention that it is seemingly not "the most loving thing to do.
I am not worred about going to jail, losing my life, or ethical people thinking me irrationally immoral for a given action, Brandon. If Paul worried about that, where would we be right now? The Lord alone is my judge. I would HOPE that my brothers and sisters in Christ would unconditionally love me and pray for me, even if they were diametrically opposed to my stances. (Some may say this hope would be wishful thinking...oh well... ) Being completely submitted to God means being willing to take ALL ramifications for following those steps...which may lead you to beatings, arrests, and even death at the hands of the state. I'm down for that.
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Now, Brandon...
How do YOU believe that the Church should extend love to MS-13? What are some practical things that we can do?
How can we be Christ to our brothers and sisters trapped in this web of ignorance and sin?
I'd like your thoughts on that for real.
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/10/2007 6:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Unison: Brandon (emphasis mine):
When you say "the determiner" of that information, do you mean that God could be the one orchestrating said events such that your death may be necessary? It seems to be what you are saying as then you finish by saying, "then that's what that situation required." I can jump on board that wisdom requires trusting God (though I'm not certain that we can be certain that we are in fact submitting to God's will, which is faith right?).
After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.' "
When we heard this, we and the people there pleaded with Paul not to go up to Jerusalem. Then Paul answered, "Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." When he would not be dissuaded, we gave up and said, "The Lord's will be done."
I have to say that the same thing may be possible for me.
Brandon: That's kosher. That's what I was thinking you were thinking. That the Lord's will be done.
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Unison: Brandon:
But the other question is, do you rule out that God might in fact be calling you fatally wound the perpetrator? How 'bout, "And, if in my submitting to the Lord's will, the perpetrator's death was necessary, then that's what that situation required."
In my mind, one doesn't "rule out" anything. I have the belief that if a person is genuinely seeking ONLY the furthering of God's will and Kingdom in all situations, that God will give the person wisdom of what to do. As we submit all things to the Holy Spirit...and make sure to control our animalistic self-preservation instincts...I'm sure God will help us either overcome our trials or endure unto death well. After we follow that, it will be our responsibility to deal with the consequences of our actions...knowing that we have honestly sought to display God's love and power in a given situation.
Brandon: OK. I was thinking you were totally on a pacifistic kick when you said that you agreed with Zach. I want to follow up on the idea of animalistic self-preservation instincts down below.
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Unison: Brandon:
See, if you were before a court of law, and it was revealed that you stood passively by because "you were obeying God's voice" well I have to tell you D, that most likely wouldn't fly. And that is why pacificism is on a spectrum from Zach's "do nothing" to your "non-violent" resistance and so on. Now you may say that spending time in jail for the rest of your life would be the "cost of obeying the Lord" but that SEEMS like a bad long term consequence for such behavior. Not to mention that it is seemingly not "the most loving thing to do.
I am not worred about going to jail, losing my life, or ethical people thinking me irrationally immoral for a given action, Brandon. If Paul worried about that, where would we be right now? The Lord alone is my judge. I would HOPE that my brothers and sisters in Christ would unconditionally love me and pray for me, even if they were diametrically opposed to my stances. (Some may say this hope would be wishful thinking...oh well... ) Being completely submitted to God means being willing to take ALL ramifications for following those steps...which may lead you to beatings, arrests, and even death at the hands of the state. I'm down for that.
Brandon: Right. I'm going to have to start reading SK on that. I do want to ask you this question. In terms of self-preservation what do you think of vss like this:
Matt 10:23
23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Acts 8:1
On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.
Acts 11:19
19Now those who had been scattered by the persecution in connection with Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, telling the message only to Jews.
Would you say those who were persecuted and fled were guilty of self-preservation? There are some countries that have not had missionaries come because the persecution was so great. I wonder if we should say that this is selfishness.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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One Love
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| Posted 6/10/2007 8:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
Would you say those who were persecuted and fled were guilty of self-preservation? There are some countries that have not had missionaries come because the persecution was so great. I wonder if we should say that this is selfishness.
Why should I waste time and energy attempting to pronounce actively guilt upon fellow Christians? Especially when God may have well been telling them exactly what to do. I don't know. As long as someone is completely submitted to the will of God and living in continuous Christ-like love at all times in what they are doing, more power to them.
Honestly, I'd rather talk about how we can concretely begin to love these MS-13 fellow human beings!
Your thoughts on that, Brandon?
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 6/10/2007 11:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
It's a question of, "Is fleeing persecution simply a matter of self-preservation? Is this necessarily selfish?" If I decide NOT to participate in witnessing to MS-13 gang members because of the persecution I would most likely endure, am I not doing so simply because I want to save my own hide? Is this such a bad thing? Maybe it's a matter of stradegy. Waiting for a more opportune time. See my point?
Brandon, if you are doing everything you do as unto the Lord and for his glory alone...then trust that. If you are seeking absolutely first God's righteousness in all things, then what you have the grace to do, God will allow you to do. You know your own heart. My main issue is when self-preservation trumps the priority of seeking the Father's activity to join Him in His work, regardless of situation. That's all.
Nothing comes before God's Kingdom. Especially not my "own hide" 
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
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| Posted 6/11/2007 7:41 AM (GMT -6) | | | Brandon: If I decide NOT to participate in witnessing to MS-13 gang members because of the persecution I would most likely endure, am I not doing so simply because I want to save my own hide?
Jeff: I think what we don't want to advocate is that we avoid circumstances "simply" to save our hide. "Simply" has the connotation of "merely." And I don't think that's what you're saying. Because you know that there is value in living--not only to yourself, but your neighbor/family as well. You truly are saying that, if you had God given wisdom that dying in such a situation was appropriate, you ought to submit to death. For you would be trusting that He knows more than you about the situation.
That's what I hear D. saying. He is acknowledging that there are knowable principles that will help us adjudicate these situations. But he is also allowing for something more privately revealed--like Abraham and like the Spirit's spontaneous giving of words to the apostles in Acts. IOW, ya'll are agreeing, as far as I can tell. Because apart from the spontaneous gift of wisdom/knowledge, we make our best judgment from the principles we have abstracted from Christ's teaching.
Post Edited (jefscott) : 6/11/2007 7:51:16 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 6/11/2007 7:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Jeff:
...apart from the spontaneous gift of wisdom/knowledge, we make our best judgment from the principles we have abstracted from Christ's teaching.
Exactly, Jeff. And we seek to be in continuous relationship with God (through prayer and community) such that we ALWAYS have the "spontaneous gift of wisdom/knowledge" from having the Presence of Christ in us.
Living a SPIRIT-LEAD LIFE where one always lives in the Will of God, always following the Law of Love.
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 6/11/2007 8:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Well-worded, by the way.
"spontaneous GIFT of wisdom/knowledge"
Yes!
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/11/2007 10:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Zach: "Now you may say that spending time in jail for the rest of your life would be the "cost of obeying the Lord" but that SEEMS like a bad long term consequence for such behavior."
Or from another perspective, a bad short term consequence.
Brandon: Yes, but how can you be sure of that? How do you know that THAT isn't the bad long term consequence? Do you remember D talking about this? How we don't know whether something is a judgment from God or Satan or just bad luck? All I know is what I have to live with at that moment. And it seems that those "knowable principles" which SK acknowledged that help us adjudicate these situations (forsaking a lower law for a higher one) and of which D acknowledges (or else he would be a moral relativist and are set aside for private words from God) are what they are--adjudicators.
When Christ heals the man with the withered hand Matt 12:10-13 this seems to be an instance of forsaking a lower law for a higher one. Not something that we can't know because we don't have a God's eye view on things. It is in the moment. The now. The present. Call it situationalism. This doesn't mean that we don't have morally ambiguous situations. We do. But it won't be for some pie in the sky teleological purpose that we can't know. One time we are saying that we can't know. Now we are saying we CAN know.
Secondly, when I speak of "fleeing persecution" it just seems to me that there is something life affirming and self-preserving about it. Do I agree that we should be ready to lay down our lives? Yes. That's if God tells ME. I can't speak for someone else. But I wonder if there is something that is not morally askew when we would not preserve someone else's life when we have it within our power to do so i.e. forsaking a lower law for a higher one--one that for all intents and purposes is set before us.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 6/12/2007 8:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon,
Bro, what are some things that the Church can do to reach out to people like MS-13 trapped in the gang life? What are some of the "knowable principles" from Scripture that we can apply here? Since we are not explicitly dealing with being Spirit-lead spontaneously at every moment, let's use the "knowable principles" we have from Jesus to tell us. Given what you know about things, what do YOU feel is a step forward on this issue that we can take as the Body of Christ? Sahid said that it would probably take years of strong effort, and I completely agree. But what directions should we begin to expend this effort towards MS-13 and the rest?
Let me hear you on this.
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/12/2007 9:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Sorry Unison. I didn't mean to de-rail your thread. I know you have been asking for this for awhile short of beating it outta me. I'm just trying to sort it all out in my head.
First, I think we have to recognize MS-13 as some sort of sub-culture. Thus we need to think cross-culturally. Thus, as with any subculture it will have it's own rules, language, etc. Aristotle spoke of three kinds of friendship.
1. friendship in which a weaker person recieves help from a stronger person and the relationship is focused on this help.
2. friendship in which two persons relate because of reciprocal need and each party maintains the relationship fo what they can get out of it.
3. the deepest kind of friendship, in which equals care for each other out of something like pure virture-friendship for friendship sake, so to speak.
In real life, these things overlap. Once someone gets to the third kind, it is this that can bridge any barrier. True friendships are both costly and very precious. They sometimes cross not only cultural barriers but class barriers. Personally, I would not be of the mind of attempting to "winning someone" to Christ (at least at first). I wouldn't attempt to change/abolish the structures in place because it is doubtful that this could achieve any leveling of the relationship anyway. Friendships can take place in the context of hierarchal roles for instance that can transcend the possibilities of a given culture 1 Cor 7:21-23.
It has been pointed out that people in foreign cultures are strangers and guests. Actually, many languages do not distinguish the two words. As guests we must always remember that our hosts (MS-13) are superordinate. We are on their turf. Thus, if we allow ourselves to be contextualized as strangers, rather than position ourselves as controllers, dictators, initative-takers or proselytizers, then mutual friendships may greatly benefit and be more conducive to a responsible and creative sharing of stories--and thus AUTHENTIC evangelization.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 6/12/2007 10:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
It has been pointed out that people in foreign cultures are strangers and guests. Actually, many languages do not distinguish the two words. As guests we must always remember that our hosts (MS-13) are superordinate. We are on their turf. Thus, if we allow ourselves to be contextualized as strangers, rather than position ourselves as controllers, dictators, initative-takers or proselytizers, then mutual friendships may greatly benefit and be more conducive to a responsible and creative sharing of stories--and thus AUTHENTIC evangelization.
Thanks, man. Good thoughts.
So, perhaps the Church should try to open lines of communication with the "hosts" to try to engage them on their own terms? That would mean a WHOOOOLE lot of different implications. This would take not a little bravery, just speaking politically within certain "church" structures. But I believe that is an essential way to get this done. Hmm...
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
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