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One Love
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Posted 6/2/2007 8:31 AM (GMT -6)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_UO_FgG4IE&mode=related&search=

Church, stand up.

How can we love these people into the Kingdom?

What does that look like?

I'm very VERY serious!

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

One Love
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Posted 6/2/2007 8:33 AM (GMT -6)

Interestingly enough, there is an MS-13 gang tag about 2 blocks from my house in St. Paul, MN. (55106)

Hmmmm...

One Love
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Total Posts : 13888

Posted 6/2/2007 8:43 AM (GMT -6)

A personal growing conviction.

If all of my theologizing can't come up with practical, spiritual things that I can do to get some love and healing into these types of situations...which may be closer than I think...

Then it's worthless.

Absolutely worthless.

All of it.

God help us all.

One Love
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Posted 6/2/2007 8:45 AM (GMT -6)

Lord, make me a channel of thy peace;
that where there is hatred, I may bring love;
that where there is wrong, I may bring the spirit of forgiveness;
that where there is discord, I may bring harmony;
that where there is error, I may bring truth;
that where there is doubt, I may bring faith;
that where there is despair, I may bring hope;
that where there are shadows, I may bring light;
that where there is sadness, I may bring joy.
Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort than to be comforted;
to understand, than to be understood;
to love, than to be loved.
For it is by self-forgetting that one finds.
It is by forgiving that one is forgiven.
It is by dying that one awakens to eternal life.
Amen.

--St. Francis (alternate translation)

Give us the Strength, Lord...

One Love
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Posted 6/2/2007 8:55 AM (GMT -6)

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? As for those who come to me and hear my words and put them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But those who hear my words and do not put them into practice are like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."
Luke 6:46-49 (TNIV)

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Those who listen to the word but do not do what it says are like people who look at their faces in a mirror and, after looking at themselves, go away and immediately forget what they look like. But those who look intently into the perfect law that gives freedom and continue in it—not forgetting what they have heard but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.
James 1:22-25 (TNIV)

-----------------------------

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

---------------------

Are MS-13 our "neighbors"?

If so, then we have to love them as ourselves.

We have to.

Jesus commands it.

And he said that we have no right to call him Lord if we are not going to do what he tells us to do.

So, Church.

HOW do we love MS-13 as ourselves?

What does that look like?

One Love
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Posted 6/2/2007 9:29 AM (GMT -6)

(There is graphic language in the link that follows. If you don't want that...uh...don't look?)

The suprisingly young face of MS-13
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifS_ebEUdMw&mode=related&search=

Coming to a city and/or suburb near you...

Sahid
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Total Posts : 2013

Posted 6/6/2007 12:41 PM (GMT -6)

I'm no expert, but I don't think gang members even like those in MS-13 are fundamentally that much different from anyone else. They are people who are dealing with their circumstances. It's not as though a bunch of well-fed, secure, middle-class folks got together and said, "Let's form a gang that kills for no reason and supports itself from smuggling, drug pushing, and prostitution. From what I understand, they were people who were having their lives threatened on a regular basis and were trying to survive.

So #1, the Church should stand up for the victim. When people are being targeted for racial, sexual, or religious reasons or for any or no reason, we come to their aid. Things like what Tom did in Palestine. This provides an alternative to the cycle of violence.

But once you've already got the cycle (victim has now become oppressor) things are much more dicey. How do you love the enemy who is about to kill you for no reason regardless of what you say or do? There is no answer. I think Christ teaches willing yieldedness, but when about to be murdered there is not much you can do except die with courage and faith. Yieldedness is forced.

I do, however, think that Christian support of 'stepping up security' is just a step backwards. Deporting 'illegal' aliens is what caused the problem. Stronger immigration laws are hardly going to help. In general the Church should seek to love all. If we see that the we treat Greeks with less care than Jews, we should make an effort to fix that. If we show more kindness to citizens and 'legal' residents that to 'illegal' residents, then we should make an effort to fix that. Should we care for those people whose sin is condemned by the state less than we care for those whose sin the state ignores? Certainly not. The phrase "out of your comfort zone" is trite and void of meaning anymore, but that is exactly where we must be willing to go. We must forsake our "short-term sentient satisfaction" and leave our comfortable distance.

As it is "Christian" and "American" have become effectively synonymous terms both meaning "exclusivist." Whether that definition is technically right or wrong is irrelevant. It's what many victims take the words to mean. We need to demonstrate that the Church (or whatever name it goes by) is the opposite. We need to show that we are Christlike, that we love our enemies.

Practically, it is hard or impossible to demonstrate love for MS-13 in particular. Getting to that point will take years of sustained effort. But it is to that point we must get, because it is the only place of reconciliation. If we fight back in the usual sense, we will either lose (and there will be hell to pay) or we will win and the same thing will pop up somewhere else (and there will be hell to pay).

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

Post Edited (Sahid) : 6/6/2007 12:46:13 PM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 6/6/2007 2:23 PM (GMT -6)

The problem's bigger than we think. PLEASE WATCH THIS, Y'ALL!

Gang Bangers in the Military
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gqShQTSDCM

Did you see that ON-BASE party full of SOLDIERS????? ( at 4:25 on the video)

Hell to pay, Sahid. Just like you said...

Why do I hear the voice of Malcolm X...something about chickens coming home to roost...

One Love
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Posted 6/6/2007 2:31 PM (GMT -6)

Here's the question in my mind that I'm asking myself for a minute:

If it came down to it, am I willing to lovingly sacrifice my life/livelihood for a MS-13 gang member (or any other gang member) who may be a serial rapist, child seller, and serial murderer...in the name of Jesus?

If I am not willing to do this, then I am not living up of the high calling of being a true disciple of Christ.

Yeah...it stings...

One Love
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Posted 6/6/2007 3:26 PM (GMT -6)

Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

One Love
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Posted 6/6/2007 3:39 PM (GMT -6)

about the oppressed becoming the oppressors...

Tiny Rascal Gang (the largest Asian-American street gang in the US)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_Rascal_Gang

This is the gang that the MS-13 crew was hating on in the video I posted here...

Round and round, the crazy wheel goes...

Sahid
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Posted 6/6/2007 3:55 PM (GMT -6)

Malcolm X refers to the cycle: the chickens coming home to roost (I don't think he said it at an appropriate time). Jesus said the same thing: those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

Gandhi says you should be the change that you want to see in the world. Jesus says, "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

BTW, is gangs in the military that big a surprise? The military specifically targets inner city kids from low income neighborhoods. You should see my school. These kids wear either all red or all blue four days out of the week and then green on the day the have to be in ROTC uniform. It not exactly a secret. It's pretty much standard procedure: elementary school, gang/middle school, gang/ROTC/high school, military/gang... What's the alternative? Go to church and have someone yell at you for having a tattoo and belittle your friends from the neighborhood? Or even better, go to a church where they condescendingly treat you as a badge of pride, because they are the kind of church that accepts THOSE kids?

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

Post Edited (Sahid) : 6/7/2007 1:20:58 AM (GMT-5)

Sahid
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Posted 6/7/2007 1:18 AM (GMT -6)

Whatever anyone decides and whatever happens with the gang situation in North America, I am very encouraged to know that one man, before considering the well-being of himself and his family, first asked, "How can we love these people into the Kingdom?"

For what it's worth, you made the crazy guy on the discussion board deeply happy (if that's allowed in the context of this tragic issue).

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

BBBCanada
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Posted 6/7/2007 10:45 AM (GMT -6)

Zach: I do, however, think that Christian support of 'stepping up security' is just a step backwards.

Brandon: All I know is that it is good to know that if you and I were walking down the street and we came into a MS 13 situation, that I'm glad that you have my back. hmmm

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

Sahid
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Posted 6/8/2007 4:44 AM (GMT -6)

I hope I would take the bullet if that would help you escape.

Honestly, what do you want me to do? Pull out my Rambo machine gun and mow them down? I don't know if I'd be any help against these guys. I don't know if Bruce Lee would be any help against these guys.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

BBBCanada
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Posted 6/8/2007 5:17 AM (GMT -6)

I would hope that you would do everything you possibly could. Either take a bullet, a machete or use either lethal or non-lethal force. If it required you to do the last two, I don't think I would stand a chance. And THAT, my friend, is where pacifism ultimately leads you.

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

Sahid
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Posted 6/8/2007 6:32 AM (GMT -6)

Yes. Jesus left a lot of Jews behind who would be later killed by Romans. He could have had all the kingdoms of the world transfered from Satan's control to his own. Jesus' actions (or inaction if you want) have absolutely horrible consequences. When you bump into MS-13 and pray, "Lord save me," is it evidence of Jesus' foolishness if you die? If you turn to me and say, "Zach kill them," is it evidence of my foolishness if I act like Jesus instead?

Jesus was killed by MS-13. He let it happen. More than that, he let it happen after predicting that MS-13 would lay waste to the entire city (not just one other guy he was taking a walk with).

"How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

You worship the God who lets this happen! He practices self-sacrificing love even when this results in the suffering and death of others.

Oh, I recognize the consequences. So do countless millions who have cried out to God and are not rescued. We wouldn't stand a chance. I would die and leave behind others in danger. But if this is a case for my foolishness, it is an infinitely stronger case for God's foolishness.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

Post Edited (Sahid) : 6/8/2007 7:27:18 AM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 6/8/2007 10:22 AM (GMT -6)

Sahid,

I agree with you.

My thought on something.

Perhaps, we just don't believe Jesus.

Period.

Jesus blatently...BLATENTLY...said that ALL THINGS are possible with God. Specifically in the context of CHANGING HEARTS (remember the rich man..."Lord, then who can be saved?"...all that)

We, by and large, don't believe that we can save people by being willing to die for them.

We, by and large, really don't believe it.

And because we don't believe it...we can NOT see it. (Faith of a MUSTARD SEED)

We are not able to see that God is the GOD OF THE POSSIBLE!

A God that can make a way out of NO APPARENT WAY!

(The whole metaphysic fits into this SOOOOOOOOOOOOO nicely...)

We are NOT creative enough to see that strategic nonviolent resistance CAN work...

even though we've been given HISTORICAL EXAMPLES that it DID WORK.

We are not creative enough because we LIVE in our animalistic, "fleshly" minds of SELF-PRESERVATION...

instead of the spiritual Mind of Christ...that abides in SELF-GIVING, SELF-SACRIFICAL, and ENEMY-LOVING (1 Cor 13, 1 John)

Sad.

One Love
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Posted 6/8/2007 10:28 AM (GMT -6)

Let's get very practical.

If someone REALLY, REALLY wants to reach out to MS-13 with the love of Jesus...

...and believed in the power of the Spirit of God in them...

don't we believe that God would allow them the words to say when they came in contact?

Wouldn't that person see this as a KINGDOM OPPORTUNITY, and not a THREAT...because they would have a universal perspective (Kingdom Lenses?)

If a person is so thinking about their own self-preservation, they are NOT going to be thinking about what the Father is trying to do in that moment.

They would rather find some way to preserve their temporal existences...than to seek to be an occasion for God to meet the godless, at the possible expense of their earthly lives.

Hmmm...

BBBCanada
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Posted 6/8/2007 11:02 AM (GMT -6)

I wasn't thinking of my life when I wrote this. I was thinking of the life of another. That if I had it within my power to stop someone from killing another person and the only means left was for me to kill them and I just stood by that would be shameful.

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

One Love
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Posted 6/8/2007 11:08 AM (GMT -6)

Brandon:
I wasn't thinking of my life when I wrote this. I was thinking of the life of another. That if I had it within my power to stop someone from killing another person and the only means left was for me to kill them and I just stood by that would be shameful.

Would the shame be coming from God or your own conscience with it's own ways of interpreting good and evil?

Could this be a projection of your superego...more than anything else?

Maybe?

Another thought...

It was thinking like this that probably lead Abraham to NOT TELL anyone what he was going to do with Issac. Good natured, moral people would have probably tried to stop him using the VERY SAME thought process as you, Brandon. Especially with Issac being the future of Abraham's family. It would have been UNETHICAL in their minds to let Abraham just go off and kill Issac.

Teleological suspension of the ETHICAL (Big ups to SK)

THAT's why Abraham is the FATHER OF FAITH.

See what I'm saying?

Sahid
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Posted 6/8/2007 11:13 AM (GMT -6)

Right on. But I want to point out that, free will being what it is, although it can happen, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes our Maundy Thursday decision results in a Good Friday consequence with a considerable wait for Resurrection Sunday's vindication. Sometimes the only short-term consequences are bad.

Brandon, I don't know if that last post was addressing me or not, but I hear you. It's not just self-sacrifice. It's also a refusal to use certain means to protect others. If it is shameful, then Jesus' is the most shameful being.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

One Love
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Posted 6/8/2007 11:13 AM (GMT -6)

Please remember. This is the same guy who said on the now-infamous "CARLIE" thread that he would "dropkick someone in the face" if they would stand by and let innocents get hurt FOR ANY REASON. I was passionately angry at anyone who wouldn't prevent the loss of human life for ANY REASON...even at the risk of killing the assailants or using torture.

I've nuanced my views since then.

One Love
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Posted 6/8/2007 11:16 AM (GMT -6)

Sahid:
But I want to point out that, free will being what it is, although it can happen, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes our Maundy Thursday decision results in a Good Friday consequence with a considerable wait for Resurrection Sunday's vindication. Sometimes the only short-term consequences are bad.

Yes. God works within his self-limitations...and sometimes that BEST THING that can be done in a situation has bad short-term consequences.

That's why the New Testament keeps talking about PATIENCE...and why PATIENCE is a "fruit" of the Spirit.

BBBCanada
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Posted 6/8/2007 11:23 AM (GMT -6)

Unbelieveable....(that's a guy thing to say).

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

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