B: Tom, a little clarification, please. What does THIS mean?: "...everything about the person is determined by the divine will (EVEN IF THE PERSON IS FREELY ASPIRING TO THIS)"

Tom: A person may refuse to exercise their will without being told by God how to exercise it, exactly what choice to make, thinking that this sort of surrender is what God wants from us. I don’t think it is—as an end state.

B: You (Tom) asked:  "the question of WHAT a human being actually is in such communion." That's the key question. "Saints" is the answer.

Tom: “Saints” doesn’t help me very much. I’m looking for a bit more of a definition of individual personhood, the “self,” the subjective thinking, feeling, choosing individual.

B: Tom, do you suppose that the distinctions between individuals is gonna melt away? Naw. So why should we cease being ourselves.

Tom: What will it mean for us to “be our individual selves” if it’s the case that everything about that self (you, and me, and D), particularly our choices, will be determined by God? THAT one thing makes us all the same. Hence human individuality and diversity in the eternal state are posited in the divine will (as I understand you and D) and so are as determined as everything else about us. God decides it all in the eternal state—where we go, who we visit, whether we buy flowers or bake a cake for our neighbor, whether we dance or bow when we worship, everything about us and all our choices. As I said, I think it’s better to posit the determination of diverse choices and loving expressions IN THE HUMAN WILL and NOT IN THE DIVINE WILL.

Tom

Jeff: I totally agree with you that we will not be robots when we partake of the divine nature. I think all that means is that we will no longer desire that which is or constitutes wrongly-relating.

Tom: I like the sound of it.

Jeff: But we will still be free to positively-affect the sentient satisfaction of our fellow sentient beings in a host of diverse, creative ways.

Tom: Yes! Absolutely.

As for food and fasting, I wasn’t following ya. But that’s OK. I don’t know if we’ll eat of not, have dogs or not, poop and pee or not. Dunno.

If we poop, will it smell nice?

Tom

Post Edited (jefscott) : 6/16/2007 10:53:20 AM (GMT-5)

D: Tom wants glorified humans. Basically human beings who are purified to the point where they exhibit all of the communicable divine characteristics (fruit of the Spirit , all that), fully purged of all sin, but while having their own will for determining at least something for itself. There is always a measure of human will that is NOT COTERMINOUS with God's Will, for the sake of distinction of relationship.

Would you say this is accurate, Tom?

Tom: Close enough, yeah.

D: I want an idea of "gods" born from God. Human beings freely submit their wills to the Will of God for all things at all times in all occasions. This "liberates" the eschatological essence in a human which is nothing less than the Spirit of Christ living it's eternal, universal life in particular, temporal human becoming. So, in essence, you have human beings who are BY GRACE what God is BY NATURE. In this trajectory of living, the human will is "hidden" in God's will at all times, by it's own choice.

Would you say this is accurate, Tom?

Tom: Yes, except that much of the 'language' you use to describe your view over and againt mine is language that I'm perfectly comfortable using (we're born of God, submit our wills to God at all times, have our essences liberated, are indwelt by the Spirit, etc.). None of this distinguishes your view from mine. In my construal we are also by grace what God is by nature, but this includes FREEDOM of expression, and CREATIVITY. On your view, however, we are not these things. There’s no creative movement determined by us; so we're NOT "gods" in perhaps the most important sense. On your view the only creative movement will be God’s, determined in/through/for us by God alone; not determined by us. What kind of "god" is that?

Jeff: What if God likes novelty in relationships? What if He truly enjoys the surprise of seeing how we will creatively positively-affect the sentient satisfaction of others?

Tom: Precisely. D can’t comfortably imagine God wanting this or purposing us for this.

D, I’m already composing my reply because I know what you’re going to come back with. But we’ve been through the whole Christology thing.  

Tom

Post Edited (MANY) : 6/16/2007 11:07:01 AM (GMT-5)

Post Edited (jefscott) : 6/16/2007 12:29:42 PM (GMT-5)