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One Love
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   Posted 7/6/2007 2:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My thought...

If what Greg says is true, we are to see the carnivorous and predatorial activity (and instincts and body adaptations) of the bald eagle as essentially of demonic origin...and not to be in God's will for the eagle's true nature (which we know is the "divine ground" that sustains the eagle's becoming.)

Isn't this right?


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
 
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.  The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship.  And by him we cry, "Abba,  Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

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Tom
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   Posted 7/6/2007 2:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think that's right. And I'd agree that in the New Creation 'death' will be no more. THAT quantifies over the fulfillment of ALL eschatological essences. So if eagles are around, they won't be carnivorous. Wouldn't you agree?

Tom


 

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One Love
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   Posted 7/6/2007 2:21 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I guess.

And I suppose that they wouldn't have the things that were SPECIFICALLY EVOLVED for them...

Like their flesh-piercing BEAKS...or their blood letting TALONS...

Right?

And I suppose that we have to say that the evolutionary process of that adaptation was demonic in origin, right?


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
 
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.  The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship.  And by him we cry, "Abba,  Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

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One Love
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   Posted 7/6/2007 2:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
JP did say one thing about the God working within the created order. He said there's NO WAY to disentangle the different contributions so that we can say, "Here's God's distinct influence, and there's Satan's, and there's Tom's neurons, and there's Tom's dispositional freedom, etc." We can't do that.

I hear ya, but in SATPOE, Greg makes it very clear that two of the MAIN conditions of our freedom are "the ongoing influence of God" and our "original consitution". I'm willing to bet that this "original constitution" of something is the "divine ground" we've been talking about. That's a LOT of influence, man...


*************************************

Greg:
It's within the parameters of Satan's created essence to become so evil he delights in pain and destruction of all sorts.

That's exactly what Iconoclast said was wrong with this. And I agree. Doc seems to completely equates all pain and suffering with evil. Those are NOT the same thing. There are pains of becoming ("growing pains" as it were). Some forms of destruction are for the purposes of RECREATION...and the formation of higher levels of order. Wouldn't JP agree with this, you think?


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
 
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.  The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship.  And by him we cry, "Abba,  Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

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Tom
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   Posted 7/6/2007 2:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I DON'T KNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!


 

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One Love
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   Posted 7/6/2007 2:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom,

I'm serious as a heart attack. If you get another chance to talk to JP, PLEASE ask him about this. Does he think that all evolutionary adaptation towards carnivorousness or predatorial behavior essentially of demonic origin?
 
I think THAT will be an interesting answer! biggrin


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
 
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.  The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship.  And by him we cry, "Abba,  Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

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One Love
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   Posted 7/6/2007 2:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oh, and about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics...

I thought that, before, Greg said that it was a product of demonic origin. Entropy and all that.

You remember that way back when, don't you, Tom?


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
 
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.  The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship.  And by him we cry, "Abba,  Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

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Tom
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   Posted 7/6/2007 3:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think JP was pretty clear during his talk that he would not view all evolutionary adaptation towards carnivorousness (or decay even, with entropy) as demonic. No way. Greg would.


Tom


 

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One Love
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   Posted 7/6/2007 3:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
I think JP was pretty clear during his talk that he would not view all evolutionary adaptation towards carnivorousness (or decay even, with entropy) as demonic. No way. Greg would.

Hmmm. So, if I have this straight, John Polkinghorne would fundamentally disagree with Greg's view of "natural" evil. There's something to be said for that.

If it comes between Greg's perspective and JP's...what do we do?

What really gets me is this: Greg's perspective evidently ends up giving Satan more creative power over the evolutionary process that God EVER has. Just look at all of the new levels of biological order created through the destruction (and re-emergence) of life! Through the painful STRUGGLE of life.  The bald eagle wouldn't be as MAJESTIC (talons and all! ) as we Americans often think it is WITHOUT that struggle.  Hmmm. Satan becomes a functional Demiurge, baby. But it doesn't even have to get that deep. It really doesn't.

Oh well...


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
 
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.  The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship.  And by him we cry, "Abba,  Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Post Edited (UNISON) : 7/6/2007 3:26:28 PM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/6/2007 3:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
UNISON said...
Tom,

I'm serious as a heart attack. If you get another chance to talk to JP, PLEASE ask him about this. Does he think that all evolutionary adaptation towards carnivorousness or predatorial behavior essentially of demonic origin?
 
I think THAT will be an interesting answer! biggrin

I have to admit not being so literal in my reading of scripture...BUT...I think I can "feel" a parallel of how sexual reproduction is thought of as an accomodation (even if foreknown) of the fall. What I'm saying is that a world affected by the fall could JUST AS EASILY have carnivorous adaptations AS A SHOW OF GRACE just as DEATH is also seen as GRACE in the Heidelberg Confession as it limits sin and prepares us for the resurrection.
 


(o)

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One Love
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   Posted 7/6/2007 3:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW,

I don't think that many Protestants nowadays understand that idea of Death being a demonstration of GRACE. For real. I feel ya though.... :-)

And I just thought about it. John Hick would probably agree more with JP than with Greg. Just an observation.


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
 
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.  The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship.  And by him we cry, "Abba,  Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/6/2007 4:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
UNISON said...
POW,

I don't think that many Protestants nowadays understand that idea of Death being a demonstration of GRACE. For real. I feel ya though.... :-)
Here's what my kids get in Sunday School, at our Reformed church:
THE HEIDELBERG CATECHISM, 1563
 
42  Q.  Since Christ has died for us,
        why do we still have to die?

    A.  Our death does not pay the debt of our sins.^1
        Rather, it puts an end to our sinning
        and is our entrance into eternal life
.^2

    ^1  Ps. 49:7
    ^2  John 5:24; Phil. 1:21-23; 1 Thess. 5:9-10
 
http://www.crcna.org/site_uploads/uploads/heidelberg.txt


(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 7/6/2007 4:55:43 PM (GMT-5)

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Similitude
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   Posted 7/7/2007 10:49 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I appreciate the clarification, D. and T., about Greg on "eschatological essences" of non-volitional, sentient beings. I was having a hard time understanding how the eschatological essence of a non-volitional being could be anything like that of a volitional being. The only idea of an "eschatological essence" of animals I could imagine would be that description of the natural world being freed at the revelation of the sons of God in Rom. 8. But this seems to be an act of God, not some mode of becoming the natural world has an innate capacity for. Such an "eshatological essence" of nature would have to do with its divine purpose, but not necessarily having anything to do with it's own native capacities.

Much of the diversity of opinion on natural evil has to do with whether we see epistemic distance, itself, as increasing according to divine intention. Here's Hick's statement:

...sentient nature supports and serves its human apex [] by helping to constitute an independent natural order to which man is organically related and within which he exists at an epistemic distance from which he may freely come to God who has thus bestowed upon him the autonomous status of a person... from the point of view of the divine purpose of soul-making, animal life is linked with human life as the latter's natural origin and setting, an origin and setting that contribute to the 'epistemic distance' by which man is enabled to exist as a free and responsible creature...

Hick seems to be saying here that God's purpose is better served by the increase of epistemic distance created by evidence for common descent. I don't see any such idea in scripture. In scripture, I see
 
1) God flooding the earth to give man a fresh and better start, free of violence,
 
2) God creating languages to cause man to separate and abandon the leadership of Nimrod,
 
3) God lowering epistemic distance for the Egyptians and the world by shewing His power so they would know that He is lord of the earth,
 
4) God lowering epistemic distance via signs and wonders to the Hebrew poeple in the wilderness so they would know that MOSES was the true prophet to be obeyed,
 
5) God destroying the Caananites because their iniquity was filled up to the point that they hosted the Nephilim,
 
6) God determining the boundaries of the habitations of Gentiles, that they might seek after God,
 
7) God seems to restrain the deceptive designs of Satan and fallen angels,
 
8) God giving signs and wonders to prophets to confirm their word,
 
and so on. It seems that God is always in the business of helping LOWER epistemic distance created by humans and spirits so that new generations are not raised in ignorance and deception. God seems to be about SELF-REVELATION. Maybe that's part of Greg's difficulty with the view advocated by Hick. It's certainly what makes it problematic for me. Especially since Hick is saying that we, because of our recently acquired evidence for common descent, are in a better position to exist as a free and responsible creature.
 
If responsible freedom is best served by increases in epistemic distance, then it is hard to explain why God would confirm His prophets' testimony by signs and wonders and why He seems to be about self-revelation so much of the time. Hick needs a principle to explain both increases AND decreases of epistemic distance in a way that is consistent with an ultimately benevolent, "eschatological essence" of intelligent, sentient, volitional beings.


 

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One Love
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   Posted 7/7/2007 11:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff:
It seems that God is always in the business of helping LOWER epistemic distance created by humans and spirits so that new generations are not raised in ignorance and deception. God seems to be about SELF-REVELATION. Maybe that's part of Greg's difficulty with the view advocated by Hick. It's certainly what makes it problematic for me.

My tentative thought. Self-revelation is communication which deals with "revealing" and "concealing", which correspond to decreasing and increasing epistemic distance (respectively). The God who "Hides" and "Reveals", right? If we use divine self-revelation as our motif (which works biblically and philosophically), then I believe we have our princiiple to explain those increases and decreases of epistemic distance.


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
 
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.  The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship.  And by him we cry, "Abba,  Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

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Similitude
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   Posted 7/7/2007 12:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My tentative response to that, D., would be that God does truly conceal. But without having verses on the top of my head, I would guess that any verse that talks of God "concealing" is probably in the context of judgment against those who improperly responded to prior "revelation." In this case, those from whom truth is concealed are NOT profiting from that epistemic distance, though others may be profiting from the observation of their judgment.
 
I doubt Hick is saying that the human discovery of circumstantial evidence for common descent was an act of judgment by God upon anyone. And if I'm right about that, he needs a purely philosophical principle that has the explanatory power to show how both the increases AND the decreases in epistemic distance are beneficial to their recipients. Because that's how he is advancing that idea--as though epistemic distance is ultimately profitable for those who experience it.


 

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One Love
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   Posted 7/7/2007 12:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff:
I doubt Hick is saying that the human discovery of circumstantial evidence for common descent was an act of judgment by God upon anyone. And if I'm right about that, he needs a purely philosophical principle that has the explanatory power to show how both the increases AND the decreases in epistemic distance are beneficial to their recipients. Because that's how he is advancing that idea--as though epistemic distance is ultimately profitable for those who experience it.

Cool. Then we just talk to Hick about dispositional ontology...and go from there. We'll end up in the same place, basically. Perspectival sociality and all that. :-)


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
 
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.  The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship.  And by him we cry, "Abba,  Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

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Similitude
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   Posted 7/7/2007 1:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The other issue is this: Can any dispositional ontology that entails divine purpose for increasing epistemic distance ultimately account for the perfection of divine love apart from UR? And does Hick even believe in any kind of theology of universalism?


 

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One Love
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   Posted 7/7/2007 1:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff:
Can any dispositional ontology that entails divine purpose for increasing epistemic distance ultimately account for the perfection of divine love apart from UR?

Probably not. That's exactly what Hick says. Without the eschatological component, things fall apart.


***************************

Jeff:
And does Hick even believe in any kind of theology of universalism?

I believe so, yes.


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
 
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.  The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship.  And by him we cry, "Abba,  Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

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One Love
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   Posted 7/7/2007 1:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My thing is this: If we have good reasons to believe in eventual universal reconciliation (and I think we do) ...

then, everything's gravy, baby. ;-)


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
 
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.  The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship.  And by him we cry, "Abba,  Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

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JET
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   Posted 7/7/2007 1:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Also, regarding John Hick, epistemic distance and Scripture . . .

Hick's theodicy is "Irenean" as opposed to Augustinian, and so his interpretation of Genesis (and, accordingly, much of Scripture) is different from the Western interpretation we have inherited. Basically, if I understand correctly, "Irenean" refers to Hick's idea of man (mankind) starting immature, as opposed to a literal fall from perfection. For Hick, the "beginning" is really the end. The garden is interpreted metaphorically, eschatologically, and teleologically. The "Fall" is a metaphor for the gap between our current state and what we're intended to become. I believe Irenaeus is associated more with the Greek fathers and EO, although he is recognized as a saint by both the EO Church and the RCC. I'd be interested in POW's thoughts. . . .
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One Love
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   Posted 7/7/2007 1:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It...makes...sense...to...me...


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
 
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.  The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship.  And by him we cry, "Abba,  Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

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One Love
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   Posted 7/7/2007 1:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Put all this together with the idea of THEOSIS and the STRUGGLE of the Christian life from immature, self-centered, territorial, animalistic living to mature, self-giving, communal human life...and booooyaaaah!!!  biggrin


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
 
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.  The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship.  And by him we cry, "Abba,  Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

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Similitude
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   Posted 7/7/2007 1:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff: Can any dispositional ontology that entails divine purpose for increasing epistemic distance ultimately account for the perfection of divine love apart from UR?

Unison: Probably not. That's exactly what Hick says. Without the eschatological component, things fall apart.

Jeff: Ah! I agree that WITHOUT THAT, "things fall apart." But "WITH THAT," that whole epistemic distance argument doesn't contribute much to our understanding of God. The eschatological component is much clearer in that respect.


 

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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 7/7/2007 4:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
JET said...
 I believe Irenaeus is associated more with the Greek fathers and EO, although he is recognized as a saint by both the EO Church and the RCC. I'd be interested in POW's thoughts. . . .
 
Irenaeus of Lyon is someone John Behr likes to write about. Behr IS the current Dean of St. Vladimir's Orthodox Seminary, is Professor of Patristics; used to edit the Popular Patristics series of SVOTS Press; and at least was the Editor of St Vladimir's Theological Quarterly. His D.Phil. in Theology is from Oxford University, and under Kallistos Ware.
 
You can find many books by him, but let me just recommend one:
The Mystery of Christ: Life in Death  $13.22
 
 
REVIEW:

Mystery of Christ: Life in Death, The

This dynamic, challenging, and transforming vision of Christian theology, presented in a systematic manner, invites readers to approach the mystery of Christ in the same way that the first disciples of Jesus Christ learned theology. Although the disciples had denied and abandoned the Crucified One, they came to realize, through the reading of Scriptures and the breaking of bread, that Jesus had given himself up for the life of the world, so transforming death into life, darkness into light, and flesh into word.

Beginning with the Passion narratives, Fr Behr examines how we search the scriptures to encounter Christ and thereby realize that we were created for this encounter, thus opening a profound perspective on creation, the fall, sin, and salvation history. He further explains how Christ is born in those who are born again in the Church, their “Virgin Mother,” so that they become truly human, after the stature of Christ, and continue the incarnation of the Word by glorifying God in their bodies.

By returning to the approach of the early Church, this fresh study by a renowned patristic scholar offers a way out of the problems that have beset theology and scriptural study in recent centuries.

A Christian's first concern is for truth. The Mystery of Christ provides astounding insights into thetruth, indeed the many truths, of and about God’s gospel in his Son Jesus, the crucified Lord.

-Protopresbyter Thomas Hopko, Dean Emeritus, St Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary.

This magnificently conceived, tightly presented and argued introduction to Christian theology is brilliant...I haven't enough superlatives to do it justice.

Rev. Dr. Andrew Louth, Professor of Patristics and Byzantine Studies, University of Durham

Details

No. of Pages: 188 pp

Author: John Behr

ISBN: 0-88141-306-2


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Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 7/7/2007 5:03:32 PM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 7/7/2007 4:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

REVIEW:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Behr

The Mystery of Christ

The Mystery of Christ is a systematic presentation of theology that emerged from Behr’s first two volumes, The Way to Nicaea and The Nicene Faith. A break from The Formation of Christian Theology series, the book provides a vision of Christian theology that challenges the reader to rethink the modern historical approach to theology—a discipline that has become ever more fragmented in its study.

Once again returning to the earlier witnesses, Behr begins with the way in which the disciples came to know Jesus Christ as the Son of God—through the Cross and the manner in which the Passion was interpreted and proclaimed. This revelation does not occur in light of the Passion, but when the risen Christ himself directs the disciples to the scriptures. The text of the Old Testament, previously viewed as a narrative of the past, is revealed as a thesaurus of imagery, with the historical event of the Passion as its starting point. It is Christ, not scripture, who is exegeted. The crucified and risen Lord standing before them is the one of whom the scriptures have always spoken— the one who is still the Coming One.

Given this perspective, Behr continues by explaining how the results of the theological debates of the first four centuries—particularly Trinitarian theology and Christology—have become separated from the way in which they were exegetically formed and articulated. Within this structure he considers questions of canon and tradition. How is it that we speak of creation and salvation today? How is the “Fall” (mis)understood? This is crucial, not only regarding the narrative of salvation history, but more importantly how we understand our own lives. Additionally, Behr examines how Mary is spoken of in the Gospels and liturgical texts—both the nativity and the Virgin Mother as the church. Finally, he focuses on theme of incarnation, which upon interpretation presents the body as that through which Christians are to glorify God

In the carefully worded postscript, Behr provides further attention to modern theology’s paradigmatic shift away from the exegetical methods from which early Christian doctrine was originally elaborated. Today's starting points are conclusions without arguments that have resulted in ambiguity. Much of our theology now works within a modern historical framework, recounting the interaction between God as Trinity and the world. With a Trinity as a starting point, the linear movement proceeds to retell the creation story, our time in Eden, and the Fall of Man as a historical moment in history. Thus begins salvation history, the second person of the Trinity—the pre-incarnate Logos—revealing himself to Abraham, conversing with Moses, and speaking through the Prophets. This culminates in the incarnation of one of Trinity, who then returns to the Father, sends the Holy Spirit to guide the church for the rest of humankind until the second coming, which is the literal, definable end of the time-line. This popular modern trend which seeks the reality of history—how things really occurred as a neutral statement—ignores the recognition that history is an interpretation of past events. Instead of interpretation and confession, theology has become a fusion of metaphysics and mythology.


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