Open Theism Discussion Board
  HomeLog InRegisterSearch the ForumHelp
   
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > (No Subject)
 
Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

callie
Registered Member


Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 10
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 10:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi there. New here.
 
I have a question for you guys:
 
Theism, from my understanding, is not necessarily of any one religion, but just a person that believes in God.
 
Right??
 
Now, is this board pretty much geared for Christians? (And this is not meant negatively) It seems like it is.
Which is making me wonder if I have the wrong idea of theism.
 
Anyway, I am in the market for good conversation about religion and God without being subjected to ridicule or having a bible beat over my head for not being saved.
I grew up a Jehovah's Witness, and miss having people to talk to about the bible and God.
 
I'm actually, don't kick me out ;) more of a pagan of sorts. Feel free to ask questions to understand this better. As in all honesty, I don't exactly fit the average pagan peg hole.
I'm more monothesitic then the average pagan.
 
Anyway....back to reading some of the other posts.
 
callie
Back to Top
 

Corey
Five with a Four-wing




Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 11:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Welcome! Yeah, the term "theism" simply means the belief in God or gods. But the term "open theism" is a label to describe a particular view within Christianity about the nature of the future (is it "closed" or "settled" or is it "open"?)

I know you'll be treated with great respect and love here. No "bashing", I promise! The center of the center of the center as far I'm concerned is God's unsurpassable love for you. We all want to be beautiful echos of that love toward you. 
 
Tell us more of your story... how's it been for you? How did it come about that you consider yourself a "more monotheistic" pagan?

Post Edited (Corey) : 7/5/2007 11:11:00 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

callie
Registered Member


Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 10
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 11:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Corey,

Thank you for the welcome!

Bashing seems to be so popular amongst boards. Ick. Tiring to deal with. Hence my search for another board.

For me...I have a difficult time viewing God in multiples and comprehending their existance.
I tend to think that, yep, there is a God. Said God is not necessarily genderless. But has the qualities of both genders.
IT jsut doesn't make sense to me to think that there are multiple Gods and Goddesses. But while I don't personally believe it, it doesn't make it untrue.

I'm "pagan" in a very, very loose sense of the word. Seems that it has become equated with the Wicca religion.
I, for a long time now, have believed that whatever God is, is a part of each of us and also all of creation. So, my need is to honor the divinty that is within us all and around us. I seek to do that by being aware of my ecological footprint and how I treat others.
Something like "namaste" the divine in me recognizes the divine in you.
I certainly am not perfect at it. I try.
Pagans, of all sorts, had a belief in gods and goddesses of the various elements, also their deities seemed to have a very human aspect to them, less divine, perhaps?
So, I'm less quick to judge the various gods and goddesses as being not "real", I just see them as being more faces of what people have perceived God to be.
And even though, I find myself returning to Christianity now and then, possibly because of a comfort zone, not sure, I would not consider myself Christian because I don't KNOW that Jesus himself is God (that is not a JW teaching btw) and I am not entirely settled on the sin issue.
Maybe someday that is something I would believe and grasp, but for now.....no.

Now this open theism term is very interesting. Something I definitely need to explore a bit.

You said this:
The center of the center of the center as far I'm concerned is God's unsurpassable love for you. We all want to be beautiful echos of that love toward you.

What an awesome sentiment.
Love and peace "sound" so nice. I think, imho, that they are the most difficult things to acheive because we are so materilistic at times and ruled by our emotions, by our bodies. Seems like somewhere in the bible St Paul had something to say about being ruled by sin.
I like that statement. I think on many levels that is so true.
To be ruled by love is tough, to think and "be" peace is tougher!!
So, I look forward to talking with you more as I would like to widen my world of people who are seeking to be echoes of love.

nice to meet you btw

callie
Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 12:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Callie-

Welcome aboard! Glad you're here. I can't chat right now. Gotta run, but wanted to say hi.

Tom


 

Back to Top
 

Corey
Five with a Four-wing




Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 12:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I resonate with so many points of your description. Thanks for that... we have a lot more in common than you may imagine. Actually, several people around here consider themselves "panentheists" (probably myself included... still in process in my thinking on a lot of this.) Panentheism (literally "all in God" ) is a bit different than classic theism in several respects, most sharing some of the intuitions you've just described. Interestingly, one of the board members here used "Namaste" as his screen name for quite some time. FYI, now he calls himself "UNISON".

I'd like to better understand what you have in mind when you talk about "the sin issue". To me, that just means that all of us have misrelated in various ways to ourselves, to others, to God. None of us love as we should, probably stemming from the Matrix we find ourselves in. Sounds like you'd agree with that, so I'm not sure what "the sin issue" means to you.

Very nice to meet you too!

Corey

Back to Top
 

callie
Registered Member


Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 10
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 1:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ah yes the term panentheism. I Have actually used that term in the past.
Lol, I believe the exact phrase was:
Panentheistic monotheist
:-)

But have since dropped it, because I realized that my understanding of that philosophy is very limited and until I have a better grasp of it, it might be more respectful to cease and desist.

I will keep my eyes open for Unison.

Ok, sin issue:
a) Matrix? Huh? (making mental note to look that up later)
b) You said:
To me, that just means that all of us have misrelated in various ways to ourselves, to others, to God. None of us love as we should,
What a great way to put that and yes I would agree with that. Defining it like this:
Not thinking like God.

The "issue" comes with the idea of Jesus dying for the sins of mankind.
Virgin birth and all..
I just don't know about that.
Now, coming from the background of having friends who are very polytheistic and have some pretty interesting beliefs, I would not rate the Virgin Birth as being impossible, I just don't know that I can personally accept that.
Dying for the sin of man.
Wow, I mean when you really get into what that means:
If you just take what we've discussed, then this gets pretty interesting.

Something that had gotten me to pondering this deeper, of all things, was the Catechism of the CC.

looking forward to your thoughts on this

Tom, a pleasure to meet you! Looking forward to talking some more with you on this!


callie
Back to Top
 

Corey
Five with a Four-wing




Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 3:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My use of "Matrix" is just metaphor from the sci-fi movie of that name. People born into an illusion and instilled from birth with beliefs that the world was a certain way which was completely different from reality. Have you seen it? Have you experienced the "splinter in your mind" that things just aren't quite adding up right in this life? There's gotta be something more? Know what I mean?
Back to Top
 

JET
Registered Member


Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 3:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Welcome, Callie!  I should warn you that this board may become addicting.  I've been here (mostly lurking, sometimes talking) for years.  I love reading the thoughts of all the smart people here (much smarter than me!) who really "get it" when it comes to the centrality of love.
 
Regarding sin and atonement, Tom (aka "Many") was on a roll here:
 
Back to Top
 

Corey
Five with a Four-wing




Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 3:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Callie said: Defining [sin] like this: Not thinking like God.

Corey: Excellent. That's it, although I'd say it's probably more than just "thinking", I'd want to say "relating" instead.

Callie said: Dying for the sin of man. Wow, I mean when you really get into what that means: If you just take what we've discussed, then this gets pretty interesting.

Corey: Keep going. What specifically do you have in mind? Are you asking, "How could it be that Jesus' death does anything to remedy MY misrelating?"

Post Edited (Corey) : 7/5/2007 3:19:39 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 4:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Callie.

Welcome.


(o)

Back to Top
 

Starkman
Registered Member




Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 4:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah, when Jef says, "I've been here . . . reading the thoughts of all the smart people here (much smarter than me!), um, don't believe him. The guy is brilliant!

It's I who ain't so smart. I don't just lurk here when they start talking philosophy, I crawl into the corner into an Extreme Makeover fetal position and, with super vocal output, wail for mercy (I can't keep up with them. My mind turns to mush at that point).

For the "I got left behind" group (and I'm NOT talking about ala LeHaye!),
Starkman


 

Back to Top
 

callie
Registered Member


Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 10
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 4:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
corey said...
My use of "Matrix" is just metaphor from the sci-fi movie of that name. People born into an illusion and instilled from birth with beliefs that the world was a certain way which was completely different from reality. Have you seen it? Have you experienced the "splinter in your mind" that things just aren't quite adding up right in this life? There's gotta be something more? Know what I mean?
 
Ok well first, we would need to define reality. What is reality? hmmm
 
Next, the splinter that things are adding up right in this life....something more....
 
Let me see if I have this understood in my brain before I attempt to answer:
 
This is not all there is to life?
 
Be that the case my answer is....
 
Yup. That's why I just can't claim atheism. Uhm...maybe this is matrix-y biggrin
There is, not I think, there is another realm. Realm is a loose term. There ARE spirits. I don't know if they are good or bad. I don't know if they are ghosts or spirits. I don't know if they are angels or demons.
 
But THIS what we see is not all there is.
 
If I misunderstood you...well, erase everything I wrote and let's start again biggrin
 
 
Corey said...
Excellent. That's it, although I'd say it's probably more than just "thinking", I'd want to say "relating" instead.
 
Yeah, that is a very good way to put it. I think that I have heard it worded like: Not being of the same mind as God. So that would be closer to what you say, relating. Being of the same mind is not just thinking. Deeper then that.
 
 
Corey said...
Keep going. What specifically do you have in mind? Are you asking, "How could it be that Jesus' death does anything to remedy MY misrelating?"
 
How? Well for starters:
As a JW I believed that before Jesus advent, the Israelites were required to make sacrifices. Much of the OT would be used to prefigure Jesus life and death. Now, my question to start might be worded like this:
Why would God need the sacrifice? Why not just accept heartfelt apologies? And further, how do I know that God really did exact that and it wasn't just a group of men who felt that this was what God wanted?
Interestingly, early man (if you believe that there was "early" man) had their own sacrifices. The whole concept of sacrifice and communion is not unusual in various religions.
Still, why would God need this from people? I think of when Jesus was born and his parents took him to the temple.
Because I do realize that to adequately answer why Jesus died, I have to answer why God asked for sacrifice in the OT.
What was the purpose?
 
 
Pot on Wheel: Thank you for the welcome!!!
 
 
Starkman said...
Yeah, when Jef says, "I've been here . . . reading the thoughts of all the smart people here (much smarter than me!), um, don't believe him. The guy is brilliant!

It's I who ain't so smart. I don't just lurk here when they start talking philosophy, I crawl into the corner into an Extreme Makeover fetal position and, with super vocal output, wail for mercy (I can't keep up with them. My mind turns to mush at that point).

For the "I got left behind" group (and I'm NOT talking about ala LeHaye!),
Starkman
Ahhh I shall remember that about JET. So far the posts that I've been reading, seems like everyone is pretty well read and "smart".
I am Really interested now in the Philosophy you speak of.
I've been craving intelligent conversation which goes into Theology and Philosophy.
Don't crawl into a corner and cry for mercy! How would we learn if we did that?
Believe me, I have been around some super smart people who could quote you the Greek and Latin texts and give you a thorough explanation of the exegesis of Genesis. (I can hardly spell the words, lol)
Yet, honestly, I have learned a great deal.
 
Looking forward to talking with you more!!
 
Jet said...
Welcome, Callie!  I should warn you that this board may become addicting.  I've been here (mostly lurking, sometimes talking) for years.  I love reading the thoughts of all the smart people here (much smarter than me!) who really "get it" when it comes to the centrality of love.
 
Regarding sin and atonement, Tom (aka "Many") was on a roll here:
 

Ok, I DID see that and started reading it, but with two kids discovering what to do with scissors I couldn't really get into it. I have to say I am very much looking forward to reading it.
 
I Need a board to be addicted to that is going to be mentally stimulting and beneficial.
Something about listening to the whiny voice of SpongeBob all day sort of turns off brain function....
 
Smart. Hmph.
You guys sound like you are waaaay ahead of me!
 
I invited a Christian friend here. He's too a former JW, nice, nice person. THought he may like this place.
Hope he gets my message.
 
callie
Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 5:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oh Jeff, thanks for finding that. I lose track of those and then never find them. Yeah. I wanna pass that thread by Greg here and see what he thinks.

Tom


 

Back to Top
 

Corey
Five with a Four-wing




Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 6:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Callie: As a JW I believed that before Jesus advent, the Israelites were required to make sacrifices. Much of the OT would be used to prefigure Jesus life and death. Now, my question to start might be worded like this:
Why would God need the sacrifice? Why not just accept heartfelt apologies? And further, how do I know that God really did exact that and it wasn't just a group of men who felt that this was what God wanted? Interestingly, early man (if you believe that there was "early" man) had their own sacrifices. The whole concept of sacrifice and communion is not unusual in various religions. Still, why would God need this from people? I think of when Jesus was born and his parents took him to the temple.
Because I do realize that to adequately answer why Jesus died, I have to answer why God asked for sacrifice in the OT. What was the purpose?
 
Corey: Greg talked about this once (well, more than that I'm sure). Check this out if you have the time.
 

1/29/2006 – A Pigeon, a Lion and Deep Magic, Greg Boyd  –  sermon length is 39:38 minutes

God’s love and mercy for us is fully revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. Christ did not come to hold back the wrath of God; rather He came to deliver us from the bondage of Satan. Through sin, we are made slaves to Satan’s dominion. However, through Christ’s death on the cross, we are bought back from the power of sin and death. The sacrifices of the Old Testament remind us of the consequences of sin and point to a time when Christ would pay the price of sin for all who choose to believe in Him.

 

Audio - 4.64 mb
High-Quality Audio - 18.5 mb

Presentation Slides
Covenant Group Study Guide
Individual Study Guide

 
Back to Top
 

callie
Registered Member


Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 10
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 6:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I will likely listen to that tomorrow afternoon.
Which btw, thank you, I am always looking for things to listen to while I work.
I was just listening to Kreeft's audio on moral relativism. Very interesting man.

Thnx!!!

callie
Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 8:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
callie said...
How? Well for starters:
As a JW I believed that before Jesus advent, the Israelites were required to make sacrifices. Much of the OT would be used to prefigure Jesus life and death. Now, my question to start might be worded like this:
Why would God need the sacrifice? Why not just accept heartfelt apologies? And further, how do I know that God really did exact that and it wasn't just a group of men who felt that this was what God wanted?
Interestingly, early man (if you believe that there was "early" man) had their own sacrifices. The whole concept of sacrifice and communion is not unusual in various religions.
Still, why would God need this from people? I think of when Jesus was born and his parents took him to the temple.
Because I do realize that to adequately answer why Jesus died, I have to answer why God asked for sacrifice in the OT.
What was the purpose?
 
 
Pot on Wheel: Thank you for the welcome!!!

I don't know JW, but I'll take on the question of "what need God would have of a sacrifice." The answer is LOVE.

Toss out the notions that God could not love us without being paid off in some way. Instead use the illustration Fredrica Matthews-Green used of a firefighter. The firefighter makes a sacrifice -- a sacrifice not "to" someone but "for" something. A sacrifice for US. God can hear heartfelt applogies. But if they are appologies from the window of a burning building we still need saving; and the more God loves us the more he wants to save us.

The OT sacrifices were an accomodation which did two things: connected with what they could understand in their place of growth (Abraham's ceremony with the cut up animals, where God makes him sleep so that required payment for sin would fall on the sole signitor of God himself, still, is less grown than the major prophets picture of God writing his law on our hearts and giving the Holy Spirit in Ezekiel.), and giving them the tangible means they needed so as to make a difference in their lives. (Scape goats are good psychology, but they also underlined that sin is not just a notion and that it bears dreadful consequences on mankind and the whole cosmos.) All these were shaddows to point to what would happen. What happened later required saving by God who also is one of us.

We need saving and God wants to save us.

The "group of men" had feelings. But when the incarnation began it was an angel and a young girl.

God had asked for sacrifice in the OT to teach of his love to forgive people over and over, but not never accept them staying in the burning house's windown. To mix (metaphors from scripture) the "glowing ember" he did not "snuff out", and the lost sheep he went and looked for.

To the sheep came the shepherd. First God's Spirit overshaddowed the young woman who said an unequivocal "yes" to God's will -- Mary. Before God began saving the world from the moment of conception through all those "obediences" of taking on himself everything that we bear in struggles, striving, and sorrow, and before Jesus was formed by the Holy Spirit from someone having the same needs of saving and healing as us...God prepared the moment when one human person would be able to say "yes" without hesitation or duplicity.

Salvation does not just come from God "forgiving" us; it comes through God healing the illness of sin and its consequences of death in his own flesh -- in our flesh -- in his own life and death and resurrection, for us.

I've answered "why God asked for sacrifice in the OT." and I've went on to say why and a bit of how God became the sacrifice that was not "to" but was "for" us.

THAT was and is the purpose!

A human being became the NT equivalent of the burning bush that was not consumed, and the alter upon which the "sacrifice" was laid. She is the one through whom "salvation" (the person of her son Jesus) entered the world. And her son, who was born of the flesh with a mother but no father is also God from beyond all ages begotten of the Father without a mother. And he is the living expression of the Love of God to us, who are in need of the salvation by which we can partake of the eternal life of God through the conduit of Christ's glorified humanity. He is the true vine, the bread of life, the mustard tree.

PoW


(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 7/6/2007 9:45:29 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Similitude
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 7/5/2007 9:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Welcome, Callie. I'm sure you'll find takers on all subjects about theism here. Hope you enjoy it!


 

Back to Top
 

might-be-don
Registered Member


Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
 
   Posted 7/6/2007 7:50 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Callie... another lurker here.

MANY touched on your "who is Greg?" question, but didn't flesh it out much.

Greg started this forum back in 2001 ( I think ) as a way to talk out the many subjects he finds interesting and "try out" new ideas. Also using this as a means to discuss his take on "Open Theism" . Much of what has been discussed over the years revolves around the paper Greg ( also known around here as "the Doc" ) wrote for his doctorate, "Trinity and Process: A Critical Evaluation and Reconstruction of Hartshorne's Di-Polar Theism Towards a Trinitarian Metaphysics " . I can't even say it without taking a breath much less have any notion of what all the philosophical lingo means. Three other books he wrote, God of the Possible, God at War, Satan & Problem of Evil, also provide the springboard for much of the conversation. "God of the Possible" can give you much insight into what "Open Theism" is all about.

A few years ago Greg's heavy writing schedule and his church pastorate no longer allowed him to continue participating on the board. Corey was kind enough to take over running the board and giving us a place to call home.

Many of us here know Greg and often refer to him in a very personal way. Don't be putoff ( i don't think you will ) by our personal references to him. He is unlike any other pastor/preacher/teacher/author you are likely to run across.

Anyway, welcome.

peace, don


The world's perfect, wouldn't change a thing.
 

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 7/6/2007 11:16 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hello, Callie.

Welcome to the Open Theism Discussion Board. Got some good people and good conversation here.

I pray the God of Love meets you here (and everywhere else!) through your interaction.

Have fun and live in perpetual love,
:-)


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
 
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.  The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship.  And by him we cry, "Abba,  Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 6:29 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads