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|  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 10/19/2007 7:46 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Epiklesis said... Creation is now and continually "divinized" and is one with God through Christ's Real Presence. Who can you ask--by email? Local EO priest? Podcaster on Ancient Faith Radio?
Ask someone; but tell me what you find out.
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 10/19/2007 7:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  Violin for God Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!

Date Joined Dec 2004 Total Posts : 690 | Posted 10/20/2007 2:45 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Sorry I haven't been here much. Thanks for the clarification, D.
I have another "I don't get it" question...all this is new and I have very little background in this high church stuff (other than growing up in a Lutheran church)... and this may be completely off topic, so I apologize.
But related to the part you quoted here D:
"We offer to Thee this reasonable and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee that Thou, sending forth Thy Holy Spirit on us and on these present gifts"
In what way is this a "sacrifice" when it's just talking about the Eucharist? When it's talking about an "unbloody sacrifice", I understand that the unbloody part is referring to the communal elements... but how's this a sacrifice? That's totally preventing me from seeing the link between this and the Romans 12:1-2 passages.
I mean, when they recite this litugical piece during the communion part of the mass, are they really referring to the person taking the elements, or are they referring to the partakers? If they are, great... I'm just checking to see if traditionally that's what was actually being referred. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 10/20/2007 11:00 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Violin for God said... Sorry I haven't been here much. Thanks for the clarification, D.
I have another "I don't get it" question...all this is new and I have very little background in this high church stuff (other than growing up in a Lutheran church)... and this may be completely off topic, so I apologize.
But related to the part you quoted here D:
"We offer to Thee this reasonable and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee that Thou, sending forth Thy Holy Spirit on us and on these present gifts"
In what way is this a "sacrifice" when it's just talking about the Eucharist? When it's talking about an "unbloody sacrifice", I understand that the unbloody part is referring to the communal elements... but how's this a sacrifice? That's totally preventing me from seeing the link between this and the Romans 12:1-2 passages.
I mean, when they recite this litugical piece during the communion part of the mass, are they really referring to the person taking the elements, or are they referring to the partakers? If they are, great... I'm just checking to see if traditionally that's what was actually being referred.
It looks to me that it speaks of Christ: "Nevertheless, through thine unspeakable and boundless love toward mankind thou didst become man, yet without change or alteration, and as Lord of all didst take the name of our High Priest, and deliver unto us the ministry of this liturgic and unbloody sacrifice. For thou alone, O Lord our God, rulest over those in heaven and on earth..."
==================================================
THE PRAYER BEFORE THE GOSPEL
PRIEST:
LLUMINE our hearts, O Master who lovest mankind, with the pure light of thy divine knowledge, and open the eyes of our mind to the understanding of thy Gospel teachings; implant in us also the fear of thy blessed commandments, that trampling down all carnal desires, we may enter upon a spiritual manner of living both thinking and doing such things as are wll pleasing unto thee: for thou art the illumination of our souls and bodies, O Christ our God, and unto thee we ascribe glory, together with thy Father who is from everlasting, and thine all-holy, good, and life-giving Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen. (Compare to Munda cor meum in the Roman Mass.)
(The People Stand)
G O S P E L
PRIEST: Wisdom! Attend! Let us hear the holy Gospel. Peace be to all.
CHOIR: And to thy spirit
PRIEST: The Reading is from the Holy Gospel according to Saint N.
CHOIR: Glory to thee, O Lord, glory to thee.
(The Priest sings the appointed passage from the holy Gospel; when he has finished, the Choir sings:)
CHOIR: Glory to thee, O Lord, glory to thee.
(The people sit)
(The Priest preaches the sermon. Often this is moved to the end of the service.)
(The Priest makes the sign of the Cross over the Antimins with the Gospel Book, and places it before the Altar tabernacle; he unfolds the Antimins, makes the sign of the Cross above it with the sponge, and says the following prayer:)
THE PRAYER OF THE EKTENIA OF FERVENT SUPPLICATION
(The people stand)
PRIEST: (aloud) Help us; save us, have mercy on us; and keep us, O God, by thy grace. Wisdom:
THE SECOND PRAYER OF THE FAITHFUL
PRIEST:
GAIN and oftentimes we fall down before thee and beseech thee, O Good Lord who lovest mankind, that looking down upon our petition thou wilt cleanse our souls and bodies from all defilement of flesh or spirit; and grant us to stand blameless and without condemnation before thy holy Altar. Grant also, O God, to those who pray with us growth in life and faith and spiritual understanding. Grant them always blamelessly to serve thee with fear and love, and to partake without condemnation of thy Holy Mysteries, and to be accounted worthy of thy heavenly Kingdom:
That guarded always by thy might we may ascribe glory unto thee: to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages.
CHOIR: Amen.
(The Choir now sings the Cherubimic Hymn as far as the words "the King of all"; meanwhile, the Priest reads the Prayer of the Cherubimic Hymn, and prepares to make the Great Entrance.)
C H E R U B I M I C H Y M N
CHOIR: Let us who mystically represent the Cherubim, and sing to the life-giving Trinity the thrice-holy hymn, now lay aside all earthly care: [Non-Russian: that we may receive the King of all, who comes invisibly upborne by the Angelic Hosts. Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.]
THE PRAYER OF THE CHERUBIMIC HYMN
PRIEST: (quietly)
O one who is bound with the desires and pleasures of the flesh is worthy to approach or draw nigh or to serve thee, O King of Glory: for to serve thee is a great and terrible thing even to the Heavenly Powers. Nevertheless, through thine unspeakable and boundless love toward mankind thou didst become man, yet without change or alteration, and as Lord of all didst take the name of our High Priest, and deliver unto us the ministry of this liturgic and unbloody sacrifice. For thou alone, O Lord our God, rulest over those in heaven and on earth; who art borne on the throne of the Cherubim; who art Lord of the Seraphim and King of Israel, who alone art holy and restest in thy Holy Place.
Wherefore I implore thee who alone art good and art ready to listen: Look down upon me, a sinner, and thine unprofitable servant, and cleanse my soul and my heart from an evil conscience; and by the power of thy Holy Spirit enable me, who am endued with the grace of the priesthood, to stand before this thy Holy Table, and perform the sacred Mystery of thy holy and immaculate Body and precious Blood. For I draw near unto thee, and bowing my neck I pray thee: turn not thy face from me, neither cast me out from among thy servants; but vouchsafe that these gifts may be offered unto thee by me, thy sinful and unworthy servant: for thou thyself are he that offers and is offered, that accepts and is distributed, O Christ our God: and unto thee we ascribe glory, together with thy Father who is from everlasting, and thine all-holy, and good, and life-giving Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.
(The Priest now says the Cherubimic Hymn, censes the Altar, the ikons and the people, saying Psalm 50 as he goes. He makes three low bows before the Altar, kisses the Antimins and the Altar, turns and bows to the people, and goes to the Prothesis Table; he censes the holy Gifts, bows, and says:)
PRIEST: (quietly) O God, be gracious unto me a sinner, and have mercy upon me. (Then he takes up the Aer and places it upon his shoulders saying:)
PRIEST: (quietly) Lift up your hands to the holy Places, and bless ye the Lord. (The Priest takes up the Diskarion in his left hand, and the holy Chalice in his right hand, and preceded by the Cross and the taper and censer-bearers proceeds 1) in Russian practice in front of the ikon screen or 2) in other recensions around the Temple, saying aloud:)
PRIEST: The Lord God remember us all in his kingdom, always: now and ever, and unto ages of ages.
CHOIR: Amen.
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 10/20/2007 11:06:41 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 10/20/2007 11:08 AM (GMT -6) |   | |
HERE is a very readable explanitory text written for us common people!
http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=99
(by Fr. Thomas Hopko)
It is now time for the sacrificial offering to God. There is only one true and acceptable offering with which God is pleased. It is the offering of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God Who offers himself eternally to the Father for the sins of the world. In Christ men can offer themselves and each other and all men and the entire world to God. Christ has united all things in himself, and has taken all things upon himself. Thus, in and through him, men can offer all that they are, and all that they have, to God the Father. They can do this because they are in Christ, and have received the Holy Spirit from him. At this moment in the Divine Liturgy the celebrant prays for himself, confessing his personal unworthiness and affirming that the only Priest of the Church is Jesus:
For Thou art the One who offers and the One who is offered, the One who receives and the One who is given, 0 Christ our God...
|
The altar table, the icons and all of the people are incensed once again as the Cherubic Hymn is sung: |
Let us who mystically represent the cherubim and sing the Thrice-holy Hymn to the life - creating Trinity, now lay aside all earthly cares. The Gifts of bread and wine which stand for Christ, and in him, for all men and the entire world of God's creation - for Life Itself - are now offered to God. They are carried in solemn procession from the table of oblation, into the middle of the church, and through the royal doors of the iconostasis to the altar table. This procession is called the Great Entrance as distinct from the Small Entrance that was made earlier with the Book of the Gospels. In some Orthodox Churches the offertory procession of the Great Entrance is made around the entire nave of the church building, and so it is actually of greater length and solemnity than the small procession with the Gospel Book.
During the offertory procession of the Great Entrance, the celebrant once again prays to God on behalf of all with the prayer of the Crucified Thief: Remember, 0 Lord in Thy Kingdom... The bread and wine are placed on the altar table and the people conclude the Cherubic Hymn:
That we may receive the King of all who comes invisibly upborne by the angelic hosts. Alleluia. At this time the celebrant quietly recites verses which call to remembrance the absolute perfection and total sufficiency of Christ and his self-offering. For the Lord who "fills all things" with himself makes even his tomb "the fountain of our resurrection." The Cherubic Hymn and the meditative verses of the celebrant just mentioned are a late addition to the Divine Liturgy. They were added in the imperial era of Byzantium in order to enhance the essential liturgical act of the offertory which is the movement of the Church offering itself to God the Father through its, Head, High Priest and King Jesus Christ who is also the Suffering Servant, the Lamb of God and the New Passover; the sole sufficient sacrifice which is perfect, total and fully acceptable to the Father. In the liturgical offertory, the faithful give themselves in sacrifice to God together with Christ. They do so through the Holy Spirit as those who have died and risen with Christ in baptism. In order for the liturgical act of offering to be genuine and true, it must be the living expression of the Church's constant and total self-offering to God. If each member of the Church is not in perpetual sacrifice with Christ to the Father and is not "bearing his cross" by the power of the Spirit, the offertory entrance of the Divine Liturgy be comes a sterile symbol devoid of reality. As such it is done not as a movement towards God, but unto condemnation and judgment.
Thus, once again a litany is chanted and a prayer is made that God would be merciful, because of the sacrifice of Christ, and would accept his people and their offering in spite of their sins; and would allow them worthily to offer the Gifts and to receive Holy Communion with God.
0 Lord God Almighty, who alone art holy, who acceptest the sacrifice of praise from those who call upon Thee with their whole heart. Accept also the prayer of us sinners, and bear it to Thy holy altar, enabling us to offer unto Thee gifts and spiritual sacrifices for our sins and for the errors of the people. Make us worthy to find grace in Thy sight that our sacrifice may be acceptable unto Thee, and that the Good Spirit of Grace may dwell upon us, and upon these Gifts here offered, and upon all Thy People... At this time in the Divine Liturgy the gifts of money for the work of the Church, the propagation of the Gospel and the assistance of the poor and the needy are collected and offered to God.
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 10/20/2007 11:11:27 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 10/20/2007 2:49 PM (GMT -6) |   | POW: Who can you ask--by email? Local EO priest? Podcaster on Ancient Faith Radio? Ask someone; but tell me what you find out.
I'm going to email the Rector of this local EO church that's nearby. It's about 7 mins from where I live. I may go to Divine Liturgy there tomorrow. We'll see...
And thanks for the context for us. Good stuff.
Here's two more that are simple and good...
OCA on the Eucharist
OCA on the Epiklesis of the Divine Liturgy
***********************************
Violin: In what way is this a "sacrifice" when it's just talking about the Eucharist? When it's talking about an "unbloody sacrifice", I understand that the unbloody part is referring to the communal elements... but how's this a sacrifice? That's totally preventing me from seeing the link between this and the Romans 12:1-2 passages.
I mean, when they recite this litugical piece during the communion part of the mass, are they really referring to the person taking the elements, or are they referring to the partakers? If they are, great... I'm just checking to see if traditionally that's what was actually being referred.
Here's how I understand it. Christ is THE sacrifice; the sacred offering of God-once for all and for all time. We participate in this consecration and self-giving surrender in and through who Christ is and what Christ has done. The bread and the wine are surrendered and consecrated unto God the Father to be transformed into the Real Presence of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. According to the EO view of "Real Presence", believers partaking of Holy Communion they are actually taking in Christ's real Body and Blood (though this process itself is mysterious) In this way, the bread and wine are part of a sacramental reality that unifies and grounds the reality of the Church. Restated, insofar as the bread and the wine are used in participating in this reality, they are sacrificial in a true sense.
Now, when we look at Romans 12, where it talks about us being "living sacrifices" that are to be "holy and pleasing to God" (as well as other Scripture that clearly teaches that our embodied states are to be the indwelling places [temples] of Christ's Spirit ), it seems to me that the consecration and surrender implied in such a reality is "epicletic"; that is to say, the only thing that makes us "living sacrifices" and "temples" is the open, humble invocation and reception of the transforming presence of the Holy Spirit of Christ. We participate in THE Sacrifice moment-to-as we live our lives completely in the power of Christ's Spirit. Supposedly, Christ truly DOES live in our members through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Hopefully, this...plus POW's context...can help a bit. 
My main question is pretty simple: If it's possible for the bread and the wine to become the Real Presence of Christ (Body and Blood) through the transforming power of the Spirit, why can't our own bodies be transformed into Christ's Real Presence by the same power?
Seriously.
I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be possible, at least...especially if we are indeed "living sacrifices" and "temples of the Holy Spirit" as we are "saints" (hagioi) of God? Moreover, it pretty much seems this way anyway. We ARE what we EAT, right? If we EAT and DRINK Christ, then how is His Divine Life NOT in our members as a result? And then where we bring quantum entanglement into things...things REALLY get interesting. Everything seems to point in the same direction, though.
"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit of Christ, who is in you, whom you have received from God the Father? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies."
"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." Post Edited (Epiklesis) : 10/20/2007 2:59:13 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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 Date Joined Apr 2004 Total Posts : 4968 | Posted 10/20/2007 5:23 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 10/23/2007 8:15 PM (GMT -6) |   | Ok.
Giving an update...interesting stuff...
I had a very, very pleasant phone conversation with Father Jonathon Proctor from Holy Trinity Orthodox Church nearby. He seemed to be a very encouaging, gracious guy who really knew his stuff (obviously). I hope to meet him in person sometime soon. Anyway...long story short...I asked him my question concerning epiklesis. Basically, I just asked him:
Given what we know about theosis, the Theotokos, and epiklesis, and all that, isn't it possible that the "living sacrifices" (meaning the believers themselves) can be mystically transformed into Christ's Real Presence by the power of the Spirit...just like the bread and the wine?
I told him that I wasn't merely trying to say that the bread and the wine were some form of "middle man". Not at all. What I was trying to address was the incarnational power of the epicletic encounter with God (like what happened with the Theotokos!). It just seemed to me that if we were indeed to be "living sacrifices" and "gifts" to be giving sacrificially to God everyday...that we could have the Spirit of Christ "change" our members into His. Epicletic living.
What he said was pretty interesting.
He said that what I proposed was "directly in line" with the saints, the prophets, the Fathers, and the Tradition...but for pastoral reasons, that may not be the most effective thing to talk about. As I understand him, he said that there would be some dissonance between the reality of whole thing and the continuing struggle of the Christian life that may make things to prone to misunderstanding or abuse. But, yes, epicletic living is a potential Christian reality.
He said I was quite the informed and intuitive Christian.
But guess what...
He also just politely, nicely let me know...
If I go to Divine Liturgy...
I could watch everything..
but I can't partake in the "Real Presence" of Christ in the Eucharist there...
...because I'm not an Orthodox Church participant.
Of course, I understand...but dang...
Hmmm...
Like I said...
Interesting.
"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit of Christ, who is in you, whom you have received from God the Father? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies."
"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." Post Edited (Epiklesis) : 10/23/2007 8:21:50 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 10/23/2007 10:40 PM (GMT -6) |   | From OCA...
-----------
"After the elevation of the eucharistic gifts to the Father, the celebrant of the Divine Liturgy prays for the Holy Spirit to come upon them, and upon all of the people, and to change (or as the Liturgy of St. Basil says, to show) the bread and wine offered in remembrance of Christ to be the very Body and Blood of the Lord.
The prayer for the coming of the Holy Spirit is considered by the Orthodox to be an essential part of the Divine Liturgy. It is called the epiklesis, which means literally the calling upon or the invocation.
The Orthodox Church believes, as it prays, that the Holy Spirit is always "everywhere and fills all things." The invocation of the Holy Spirit at the Divine Liturgy is the solemn affirmation that everything in life which is positive and good is accomplished by the Spirit of God. Creation, salvation, eternal glorification; the entire work of God in making and saving the world is accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit. He is the one who dwelt in Jesus making him the Christ. He is the one by whom Christ was incarnate of the Virgin Mary. He is the one who led Christ to the cross as the innocent Victim, the one who raised him from the dead as the triumphant Victor.
He is the one who guarantees the indwelling of God with men in the Holy Communion of the Church and in the life of the Kingdom to come."
------------------------------
Then the epicletic prayer...
"Again we offer unto Thee this reasonable and bloodless worship, and we ask Thee, and pray Thee, and supplicate Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here offered. And make this bread the precious Body of Thy Christ.
And that which is in this cup, the precious Blood of Thy Christ.
Making the change by the Holy Spirit.
That these gifts may be to those who partake for the purification of soul, for remission of sins, for the communion of the Holy Spirit, for the fulfillment of the Kingdom of Heaven; for boldness towards Thee, and not for judgment or condemnation. "
"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit of Christ, who is in you, whom you have received from God the Father? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies."
"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 10/24/2007 7:55 AM (GMT -6) |   | POW: You may not partkcipate because you are not a prepared Orthodox Christian -- two things. Roman Catholics, even if prepared, may not participate due to their part of the church not being in full communion with the Orthodox. Were you to be chrismated Orthodox you could participate.
I'm not telling you anything you don't know -- I know.
But I'm just directing our attention to the fact that you can't participate WITH THEM AND THEY WITH YOU (com-munion). Its not just a "limitation on you" but on them also -- an honest and necessary one.
I understand all that. That's what I told him too. I know that it's nothing personal. I just think it's funny that, from Fr. Proctor's perspective, I had an especially good grasp about what the Divine Litugy was all about and the incredible reality that it represents...but, as I see it, none of that ultimately matters. I can't participate because of my non-chrismatic state. It's just funny to me.
Remember the radio show with Fr. Hopko that you posted, B? He was quite open about the Church's stance where a person being baptized did NOT automatically mean that they would not experience hellish "tollbooth" experience...while it was also possible for unbaptized, unchrismated people to be saved by God. In other words, lack of chrismation or baptism doesn't exclude one from having God's Spirit working in their members into salvation-unto-theosis. He seemed very clear on that.
Well, if that's truly the case...AND if it IS possible that the self-offering faith of the faithful can indeed lead to "epicletic living" without formal presentation and participation in the bread and wine "elements" (this was my understanding from Fr. Proctor) ...it seems a bit confusing that I can supposedly experience the deep reality of this form of life in community with OTHER non-Orthodox saints of God, but not with the Orthodox themselves...based on me not being baptized into the Orthodox formally.
I can participate in the reality...just not WITH them.
Just interesting.
"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit of Christ, who is in you, whom you have received from God the Father? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies."
"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." Post Edited (Epiklesis) : 10/24/2007 7:59:28 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 10/24/2007 10:25 AM (GMT -6) |   | Peter at Cornelius's House
The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the believers from Joppa went along. The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only human myself."
While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with Gentiles or visit them. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. (Epiklesis' Note: Actually, the voice of God said "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." ) So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?"
Cornelius answered: "Three days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me and said, 'Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. (Epiklesis' Note: Faith demonstrated by works!!) Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.' So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us."
Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts those from every nation who fear him and do what is right. You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, "Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
------------------------
Epicletic faith...before water baptism.
Hmm...
"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit of Christ, who is in you, whom you have received from God the Father? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies."
"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." Post Edited (Epiklesis) : 10/24/2007 5:06:58 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 10/24/2007 5:07 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Epiklesis said... ...for pastoral reasons, that may not be the most effective thing to talk about.
Good point.
Btw, any desire to go to St. Great Vespers?
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
   |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 10/24/2007 5:17 PM (GMT -6) |   | I don't know about y'all. But it seems to me that there are SIGNIFICANT implications about all this.
The idea of REALLY having Christ live his hypostatically-unified life in you in mind (Mind of Christ), body (Body and Blood of Christ), and spirit (Holy Spirit of Christ) through a being a "walking epiclesis" or "living sacrifice" is too deep for words.
Wouldn't this change...like...everything about how American Evangelical Christianity views it's ecclesiology?
"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit of Christ, who is in you, whom you have received from God the Father? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies."
"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 10/24/2007 5:19 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 10/26/2007 5:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | | for D., for the road to theosis...
The Passions: How we get into this mess and how we get out
Posted Saturday, October 20, 2007
Mother Melania, stavrophor (little schema) nun at St. Barbara Monastery, Santa Paula, California and author of the series, "The Twelve Great Feasts for Children", and the series, "The 3-Day Pascha" (for Great and Holy Friday, Great and Holy Saturday, and Pascha) discusses purity (and impurity) of heart and overcoming the passions.
http://audio.ancientfaith.com/illuminedheart/IH-motherm_passions.mp3 (o) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 10/27/2007 7:58 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
  |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 10/28/2007 8:05 AM (GMT -6) |   | B: But I'm just directing our attention to the fact that you can't participate WITH THEM AND THEY WITH YOU (com-munion). Its not just a "limitation on you" but on them also -- an honest and necessary one.
E: I understand all that. That's what I told him too. I know that it's nothing personal. I just think it's funny that…, from Fr. Proctor's perspective, I had an especially good grasp about what the Divine Litugy was all about and the incredible reality that it represents...but, as I see it, none of that ultimately matters. I can't participate because of my non-chrismatic state. It's just funny to me.
Tom: Not 'funny' but perhaps 'tragic'.
E: I can participate in the reality...just not WITH them. Just interesting.
Tom: ...and tragic.
E: The idea of REALLY having Christ live his hypostatically-unified life in you in mind (Mind of Christ), body (Body and Blood of Christ), and spirit (Holy Spirit of Christ) through a being a "walking epiclesis" or "living sacrifice" is too deep for words.
Wouldn't this change...like...everything about how American Evangelical Christianity views it's ecclesiology?
Tom: How it ‘views’ ecclesiology, sure, but more importantly how it ‘actually relates’ to others (which I'm sure is what you had in mind anyhow); like whether or not we create requirementes another brother in Christ has to meet (in addition to just BEING a brother in Christ) before we'd share the Lord's table with him. And in this important sense perhaps a deep apprehension of what you're describing would change the EO as well as American Evangelical Xty.
I’m not bashing the EO, B, just INCLUDING them with the rest of believers around the world who need reform and change.
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I’m still alive! Sorry I can join in more.
Peace out, Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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