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One Love
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   Posted 1/15/2008 12:56 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
What's MORE important is that gross misinformation about who we are and the nature of our relationship to God can led to gross misrelation. So we all must have enough RIGHT about our views to make it possible for God to transform us.

Agreed, bro.

God brought something back to me. I'd actually forgotten about this. I tell ya...but by the Grace of God, go I...

10/22/2006 – Remembering the Forgotten Beauty, Dwayne Polk – sermon length is 40:39 minutes

Click here to listen...

This was from the Individual Study Guide that I wrote for this...

Then God said, "Let us make human beings in our image, in our likeness, so that they
may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the
wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
So God created human beings in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
Genesis 1:26-27 (TNIV)

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now
on, you do know him and have seen him."
John 14:6-7 (TNIV)

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear
much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a
branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the
fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you
wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit,
showing yourselves to be my disciples."
John 15:4-8 (TNIV)

"Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in
the earth."
Psalm 46:10

----------------------------------------------------------


We spend a lot of our lives in hectic, anxiety-producing situations. We may be just trying
to provide food and clothing for our loved ones and ourselves. We may be trying to
achieve something for ourselves to give ourselves a better life. Whatever the reason,
the outcome is the same. We fall into a form of anxiety-created memory loss...where we
begin to forget who we truly are. We forget the unimaginable beauty that exists within
us. But the question becomes: why would we think that we have such beauty in the first
place?

In the book of Genesis, we discover that all human beings have been created in the
image and likeness of God. This means that all human beings have some essential
similarity to God, such that we are like God in some real ways.

It's important for us to understand this point: Once we understand that God is beautiful,
we know that there are implications for us. If we are created in the image of the
Beautiful God...then that means that WE are beautiful as well! One of the hardest things
for us to understand is that we are much more that we have allowed ourselves to
become! We were never meant to be slaves to alarm clocks, paychecks, and stress.
We were meant to live in love, freedom, and power as we bring more and more beauty
and reconciliation into the world! We have fallen into a state of despair where we have
forgotten this beauty.

How do we recover it? We have to "be still" in our spirits and get to know God by
spending time with Jesus. We have to be willing to have silence with God where we
shut off all of the noise of the world...and we can listen clearly to God. We also have to
have solitude with God where we get alone with God. In other words, we have to create
"spaces" for God so that we can get in contact with the Spirit of Christ. The more time
that we spend being with God, the more that we will relearn our own beauty!


Wow. God knows what he's doing...period...


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 1/15/2008 12:00:39 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 1/15/2008 8:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: "Non-God person-ness" (that's the best I can do right now... ) is a self-relational perspective that can be subjectively appropriated by a human "center of willing"...which leads to the possible experience of DESPAIR.

Tom: I understand that this is the best you can do right now. And this is why we DON'T agree on an indeterminist model of theosis. I mean something different than you here mean.

Peace,
T


 

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One Love
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   Posted 1/15/2008 8:22 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oh, yeah. I meant to tell y'all. I got that job that I was applying for. I'm a new addition to the Spiritual Care team at St. Joseph's Home for Children. It really feels "full circle" because I worked at a psychiatric facility for children and adolescents when I was in seminary. My mindstate is a LOT better off than it was then...praise the Father...so I believe that God will do some good through me. By God's grace, I pray to be a vessel of "humble love" (Ware) to these little ones of God.

Keep them and me in your prayers, please!


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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One Love
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   Posted 1/15/2008 8:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: "Non-God person-ness" (that's the best I can do right now... ) is a self-relational perspective that can be subjectively appropriated by a human "center of willing"...which leads to the possible experience of DESPAIR.

Tom: I understand that this is the best you can do right now. And this is why we DON'T agree on an indeterminist model of theosis. I mean something different than you here mean.


Then, brother. Show me what things would need to change in the self-understandings of those two people I talked about earlier that would BRING THEM CLOSER TO YOUR VIEW.

I want to understand FROM THE INSIDE how your indeterminist model of theosis would alter "my" view to become your view. How would the perspectives of those two human beings be corrected to reflect the reality that you see.

I'm ready to receive. Show me.
 
-----------------------------------------------------
 
Reposting...
 
So let's say that you have two people ACTUALLY doing this. Two people who strive only define themselves as God's Child (Father's Child born from and borne by Father's Spirit)...and they relate to the created order from that perspective. Moreover, they REALLY BELIEVE that, as they see themselves this way and, by divine grace, strive to live in continual "poverty of spirit"...the Father's Spirit never ceases to 1) use them providentially for God's divine purposes such that effectively God is TRULY the subject of their actions and 2) they find a fullness of love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, etc through their relationship with Father and Father's Spirit through inhering in the personhood of Father's Child. Following this scripture...

For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

...we freely choose to be "led" by the Spirit of God in absolutely ALL AREAS of their human existence, not leaving ANYTHING out. They believe that, through epicletic faith (faith leading to mystical "revealing" of the Real Presence of Christ in the "ordinary";-), they can be a "continuation of Christ's Incarnation". In relating to Father (and his Spirit), they FREELY CHOOSE the stance "Not my will, but Your will be done" for absolutely everything they think, feel, and desire. They only think about God and they ONLY desire the accomplishment of God's will in them at all times.

How would you straighten out their self-concepts so that they would align with your view?

Seriously. Show me step by step how these people are inaccurate in their interpersonal relationship with the Father.


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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One Love
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   Posted 1/15/2008 8:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Seriously, Tom. Show me where things are wrong in your mind. Because this stuff is seeming so self-evident to me at this point, it's getting hard for me to see how this CAN'T be true. But I'm teachable...and open to see what's inaccurate.

Come on, dude. Give it to me...


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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One Love
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   Posted 1/15/2008 8:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Listening party...

Church
T-Pain

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hvEsCUj0xQ

Be...fore...the...end...of...the...night...I'm...gone...have...ta...take...you...right...ta...Church!


Urban Dictionary on "Church"


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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One Love
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   Posted 1/15/2008 8:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Corey! Hey, man...comeeeeeeer! ;-)

Seriously, dude. We've known each other for some time on this board and with Kierkegaard stuff (through Modes). Is the stuff on this thread making ANY SENSE to you at all? I mean, can you see a believer in Jesus having these experiences?  I know that it sounds crazy...but when you put everything together, doesn't it make some kind of sense?  If it doesn't, help me see how I can be more understandable.

I trust you.  cheers


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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Tom
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   Posted 1/15/2008 12:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm crazy busy. Got some VIPs doing their thing and have to translate for them.

I'll get back atcha D. We got lots of time. At this point what I'd really like to do is print out all 50 pages of that thread and get Greg to commit to read it, write in notes on the margins, and really think about it. THEN we sit down this June when I get home and duke it out.

Greg ain't gonna do that is he?

T


 

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Corey
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   Posted 1/15/2008 2:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
First.... I just love you. Sometimes there's almost a Elizabeth-like experience of an internal leaping when I see you at church. (Okay, that IS weird!) I know deeply that God is working in and through you. I know there's a kindred spirit. I know there's deep beauty emerging.

Second.... with all the craziness in my life these days, I just have not been able to fully engage. You guys are prolific!

Third.... I haven't had any personal existential motivation to intensely pursue this. I don't have a deep intuitive sense of WHY this is important. I don't see anything particularly ugly about my present view of selfhood. I don't sense any conviction that I may be presently misrelating to God.

Fourth.... I wonder if we may be ascribing excessive warrant to these abstractly constructed beliefs. This stuff seems SO FAR REMOVED from anything properly basic that I don't find it compelling. This ties back to my #3. I don't have any properly basic sense that corresponds to the model you're describing.


Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are.

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One Love
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   Posted 1/15/2008 7:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, Corey. I love and respect you and where you're at on this. Mad love, dude... ;-)

Bruce? What are your thoughts?  Am I making sense to you?


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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Sahid
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   Posted 1/15/2008 8:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I echo #3 and #4. But also this: "Two people who strive only define themselves as God's Child..." You go from plural to singular. I see love as essentially a relationship between two or more. If these two ONLY define themselves as one Child of God, then there is no love between them because there is only one person by his/herself. And if we extend this apparent-plurality-but-actually-unity to the Trinity and the doctrine of theosis, we are left with one pantheistic person with no one to whom there can exist any loving relationship. So your conception (apparently) radically redefines love as fundamentally self-directed rather than other directed, for there is no real other to whom love could possibly be directed. So either all love is essentially self-love or love is not a relationship between persons but between whatever is left of us when you remove personhood (or hypostasis, which is even more awkward).

Unless terms such as person and hypostasis are defined meaningfully, I can't find my way to seeing the fine distinction you seem to be drawing. I'm much more comfortable with a more Hebrew understanding that takes all of our being, material and immaterial, and calls it a living soul. If circumstances were to arise which demanded a more detailed conception of the person than that, then maybe the Greek distinctions would be useful. But apart from apologetics directed toward philosophy professors I can't imagine what those circumstances would be. There are limits to the usefulness of these terms, these metaphors. I think we are well past those limits with this subject.


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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Tom
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   Posted 1/15/2008 10:49 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On Corey's 2, 3 and 4, right on. Yep. We may now be way beyond whatever is even communicable to average people, D.

On your 1 (Elizabeth-like experience of an internal leaping), don't repeat that to ANYBODY!!

T


 

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One Love
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   Posted 1/16/2008 12:49 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
We may now be way beyond whatever is even communicable to average people, D.

That can't be so. The guys that I've been mentoring/discipling (including my 23 year old brother-in-law) are understanding ALL of this. And they some of them haven't even had ANY theological training or even college experience.  They're just ordinary young guys.  And God's been radically changing their lives.  From crack-sellers to God-lovers.  They live like Dallas Willard wrote about. (There's actually been a physical healing miracle with one of them. Yes.  Physical healing by God. )  And my wife's always had intuitions in this direction long before I knew she did. They ALL see it. Clear as day.


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 1/15/2008 11:54:27 PM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 1/16/2008 8:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Then you should give 'em all honorary PhDs!

T


 

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One Love
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   Posted 1/16/2008 8:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ha! ;-)


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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One Love
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   Posted 1/16/2008 8:22 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If theosis is as CRUCIAL to Christian faith as it's seeming, Tom, aren't YOU wondering why this stuff isn't just plain taught and discussed more in evangelical settings? It's really mind boggling...


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 1/16/2008 5:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Imago Dei said...
Bruce? What are your thoughts?  Am I making sense to you?
Too many big words, and compound-concepts. eek
 
Forgive me?


(o)

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One Love
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   Posted 1/16/2008 5:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah...no problem. biggrin
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