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One Love
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Substition time.
 
In the Spirit, we say "I, not I, but Christ."  That's our determinining self-identification relationship.
 
At the same time,  Christ says "I, not I, but the Father"  That was his determining self-identification relationship.
 
If we make some substitution... we have...
 
"I, not I, but 'I, not I, but the Father' "  The "Christian" I takes on the bi-polar assymetrical self-understanding of Abba, Father that was the Incarnate Word demonstrated.
 
This "I not I, but the Father" is an ETERNAL, PERSONAL (HYPOSTATIC) self-identification (tropos, subjective form)
 
Christ's constant, eternal, personal self-identification that he has BY NATURE becomes ours BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH.
 
Christ's human "logos" (the logos COMMON TO ALL HUMANS) is the POTENTIAL of the human hypostasis to non-divinely self-dispose hypostatically into the divine "I, not I, but the Father" self-identification of Father's Child.
 
When our TROPOS is aligned with our LOGOS...then...
 
We are creaturely Father's Child(ren) in the HYPOSTASIS of the ONLY BEGOTTEN ETERNAL Father's Child.  Creaturely "images" of the Eternal Image.
 
The Progeny of God.  Gods born from and borne of God.
 
Does this make sense?

I would like ALL POSSIBLE INPUT on this.  Thanks. biggrin


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 1/13/2008 11:21:28 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I should send you a copy of an unpublished article from which these comments come (Derek Malone-France’s “Between Hartshorne and Molina: A Whiteheadian Conception of Divine Foreknowledge”). Althought the article is about divine foreknowledge, there are some interesting application to our debate, D.

 

From the article:

 

First…

 

As I have already indicated, according to Whitehead’s understanding of the metaphysically basic character of subjective freedom, the expression of ‘creativity’ in the formation of the actual occasion’s ‘subjective aim’ is a substantive, rather than merely formal, element of the ontological event of concrescent becoming (indeed, creativity is the ontological ‘substance’ of the becoming event). For, Whitehead agrees with Plato and Locke that to be an actual individual is to exercise ‘power’. There can be no merely passive, or purely receptive, actuality.

 

D, you see what I see here don’t you? Do you see what attracts me? Yep. Apply this to our debate. Ahuh.

 

Again…

 

Indeed, what we see here, it seems to me, is Kant (somewhat unreflectively) developing the fundamental underpinnings for an ontology of serially-ordered occasional selfhood. The problem, of course, is that Kant fails to perceive the full implications of this potentially epoch-making shift and, therefore, attempts to graft this revolutionary insight about the self-constructive character of each moment of empirical subjectivity onto a traditional enduring-substance conception of the noumenal self.

 

In other words, Kant articulates a serially-ordered phenomenology that fundamentally contradicts the logic of traditional enduring-substance ontology—to which he clings, rather than taking the next logical step and resolving the contradiction in favor of a serially-atomic ontology of temporal endurance. Hence, he fails to see that his insight regarding the necessarily active—that is, agential—character of selfhood implies the essential incoherence of ontological determinism (and so, it seems, have most contemporary analytic philosophers, the majority of whom have, in one way or another, maintained Kant’s nonsensical notion of the symmetricality of time).

 

It remained, therefore, for Whitehead to recognize and develop the full implications of Kant’s insight.  Whitehead saw clearly that freedom—or, more precisely, ‘creativity’—must be immanent within, rather than transcendent of, the temporal order of subjective experience.  This is why Whitehead’s insistence on the substantive character of the act of creativity as constitutive of the actuality of the concrescent subject—as that which is required to manifest an abstract determinate possibility in the concrete superjective determination of a concrescent actuality—is so crucial to the ultimate coherence of his account of creaturely freedom.

 

On the Whiteheadian view, God’s primordial envisagement of the eternal possibilities for actualization that are relevant to some future individual’s choice in a given situation does not (indeed, cannot) include (certain) knowledge of which will in fact be actualized (assuming that the given situation itself is realized in the course of actual events), precisely because such knowledge would imply that the apparent “freedom” of the individual in question is logically reducible to a merely formal component of God’s temporally transcendent imagination, rather than being the very substantive essence of the contingent temporal process of concrescent becoming that constitutes the actual individual as such.

 

Thus, according to Whitehead, the relevant possibilities in the divine primordial apprehension are known only qua possibilities, each of which has some relative probability of actualization—and, thus, none of which can be identified with the actual outcome, qua actuality.  This understanding preserves both the logical and the ontological distinction between the identity of the subjective-agential determination of the individual through its exercise of its own creative freedom and the identity of any and every particular primordially envisaged possibility (including whichever one of these the individual does, in fact, actually manifest).

 

D, you see how I’d like to apply this to our debate, right?

 

Kant’s system manifests this implication in his appeal to the notion of a noumenal or ‘intuitive’ intellect and in his treatment of the real unity underlying the apparent temporal diversity of all past, present, and future phenomenal objects and states of affairs, which defines ‘actuality’ in his system.  Hegel recognizes and seizes upon this implication in Kant’s thought in his reframing of phenomenal reality as the deterministic unfolding of the eternally predetermined dialectical representation of the one, all-encompassing noumenal reality of ‘the Idea’—which is (at least by implication, if not Hegel’s intent) the only being that is really ‘real’ in his system [this is D’s problem too; D isn’t deterministic throughout—he grants us freedom now—but in spite of taking different trains, both D and Hegel get off at the same final destination]. 

 

Only if creaturely freedom is understood as the essential, substantive characteristic that differentiates temporal actuality from eternal ideality—such that it cannot be logically reduced to, nor adequately represented in terms of, the formal constitution of the order of eternal ideality—can we maintain the logical and ontological distinctions between Creator and creatures, as such, without which the notion of ‘free will’ (on both sides of this distinction) is rendered nonsensical.

 

Yep. We need an indeterminist model of theosis which views ‘logoi’ as “creative packages” that human beings unpack in ways NOT determined by the divine will (though the divine will determines the possibilities).

 

T


 

Post Edited (HumanHypostasis) : 1/13/2008 11:52:10 AM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Can you interact with my stuff, please? I'm reading your stuff right now...


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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One Love
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
We need an indeterminist model of theosis which views ‘logoi’ as “creative packages” that human beings unpack in ways NOT determined by the divine will (thought he divine will determines the possibilities).

I was scanning and I saw this. I don't disagree with this. 


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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Tom
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How do you NOT disagree with it? It's the core deal I've been arguing against you. It's all I was arguing for 50 pages.

But I guess if I can still not know what epiclesis is you can still not understand my core thesis.

T


 

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Tom
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I got a bit lost in how many I's inside of other I's there were!

If you got "face to face" (prosopon to prosopon) in there, I'm good to go.

;o)

T


 

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One Love
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let's play this out, Tom.

Each HUMAN BRAIN is inalterably unique...and, given personal interaction, inalterably self-relational.  We've all all the neurophysiology and psychology we need to back that up.  Even if you were to instantly and perfectly CLONE a person (sci-fi stuff), they would begin being distinct as soon as they became conscious individually. They would undeniably have two different, unique hypostatic existences, to that degree.

But what if we have two TOTALLY SEPARATE AND DISTINCT brains had only ONE CONCEPT as their personal existence "I, not I, but the Father."...and both brains related to God ONLY from that perspective?

Wouldn't you have a weird situation where two "singularities" of human hypostatic existence would be participating in the same SINGLE eternal hypostatic reality?

An inconceivable oneness-in-differentiation?


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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One Love
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tell me you see this...please...


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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One Love
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
For me, the 'logos' determines a measure of freedom. It just IS a spark of creative and free love. When we become into THAT, we are creative centers centered in God.

and...

We need an indeterminist model of theosis which views ‘logoi’ as “creative packages” that human beings unpack in ways NOT determined by the divine will (thought he divine will determines the possibilities).



“The free man is, if he is really free, freedom itself, yet only insofar as he is free.”
Meister Eckhart

We DON'T DISAGREE here.


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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Tom
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't think I understand "I, not I, but Christ" in deeply metaphysical terms. I think if you sprung all this on Paul when he wrote the words he'd be like, "Huh? What?" I think he just meant to say that he had given up attempting to live his own independent life his own independent way in favor of following Christ and obeying him. I don't know if there's enough here to extrapolate ANY deeply metaphysical conclusions about ultimate reality per se, D. I could be wrong. Who knows? I mean, I 'do' see important implications in 1Cor (though I think the context warrants it). But here? I, not I, but Christ? It's like a policeman who commands you, "Open the door in the name of the Law!" or an ambassador who communicates to a foreign country in the place of his own country. Our ambassadors in other countries ARE the US Government in a real sense. When the ambassador or the policeman act, they act within a fundamental identity determined BY a fundamental INTER-RELATIONALITY by which they medidate the presence and authority of the government. The scope of possible choces and movements compatible with that identity is determined by the government, but the ambassador determines WHICH possibility is actualized. This can only be if the irreducible creaturely freedom Whitehead talked about is in place, and it partly determines IDENTITY.

Tom


 

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One Love
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom, you can't see it?


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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Tom
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You have ALWAYS said God alone determines EVERYTHING about EVERY movement the perfected humans make. If I even tried to squeeze out a bit of unique, CREATURELY DETERMINED movements you balked as if I wanted to take something away from God. Why would I want to be separate from God? you kept asking me. NOW you're telling me you agree?

I gotta go get a stiff drink.

T


 

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One Love
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
FOCUS, Tom.

What do you hear my stuff saying RIGHT NOW?


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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Tom
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I see what "I" mean. I know longer have any idea what you mean. If after 50 pages of mud-wrestling you now tell me that you're cool with an indeterminst model of theosis in which CREATURES are free to determine the unique shape their loving expression takes, then I no longer have any idea what you've ever meant.

Very confused (about you, not about me).

T


 

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One Love
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
We're still going down the rabbit hole. Is God involved in this whole process or not?


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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Tom
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tell ya what. Since I can't follow you but you follow me. Just tell me if you agree with ME. If you do, I'll believe you.

T


 

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Tom
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:49 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Forget the $10 words (bipolar, asymmetrical whatever). Describe it for me. Describe the experience of it.

T


 

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Tom
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Not following the rabbit hole analogy.

T


 

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One Love
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ok. I will describe it VERY directly.


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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One Love
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When I interact with myself (self-relation)...at every practice of the present moment, I basically say "Who am I"? Who am I really?

Through hesychasm (in the form of Jesus prayer), I experienced the "stillness" that helps one really sort that out.

Through this process of SELF-DENIAL and EGO DEATH(S), only one personal self-identifcation remains eternal, steady and sure. (Not like the self-identifcations of this world [husband, wife, cousin, uncle, rich, poor, male, female, Latino, Russian, "White", etc)  There is only ONE...

"Abba, Father"...the cry of the human spirit.
 
At all times, I REALLY BELIEVE that the whole of my personhood is "caught up" in who the Father is and what the Father does..and is doing.  And I can't talk about the Father without the Father's Spirit who is creating and re-creating my human hypostasis at all times.  And I can't talk about Father as Father...without talking about Father's Child...in whose image my "I-ness" inheres.
 
My human hypostasis is IN the Hypostasis of Father's Child.
 
Make sense?


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 1/13/2008 12:03:34 PM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I cry that cry.

Gotta run and translate for some Iraqi generals!

Later,
T


 

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One Love
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   Posted 1/13/2008 12:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sweet. ;-)


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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One Love
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   Posted 1/13/2008 1:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
Just tell me if you agree with ME. If you do, I'll believe you.

These are your statements.

For me, the 'logos' determines a measure of freedom. It just IS a spark of creative and free love. When we become into THAT, we are creative centers centered in God.

and...

We need an indeterminist model of theosis which views ‘logoi’ as “creative packages” that human beings unpack in ways NOT [exhaustively] determined by the divine will (thought he divine will determines the possibilities).

Let it be said and noted that I AGREE with these ideas!


So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them...

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One Love
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   Posted 1/13/2008 1:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
 
Teamwork, baby...
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One Love
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   Posted 1/13/2008 1:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Corey.
Selah.
MBD.
Brandon.
Jeff.
Zach.
Bruce.
Violin.
and everyone who reads this board. (Greg? You out there?)
 
Comment on this, please.
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