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   |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/23/2008 11:15 AM (GMT -6) |   | Theosis, Tom, occurs when the human will exists in it's NATURAL, THEOCENTRIC state where Father's Will is central to it's purpose, meaning, existence, and satisfaction. And it freely obeys that will (the ONE WILL of the Trinity) through the power of Father's Spirit. At this stage, the human has no "opinionated" or "deliberative" will...that would hinder them from relating to God's will in their self-relationship at any time. The human will "rests" and "is carried along" by the divine will...BECAUSE the human will wills to rest "transparently" in Father's will in Father's Spirit, keeping "poverty of spirit".
So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them... | | Back to Top | | |
   |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/23/2008 11:26 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
  |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 1/23/2008 11:34 AM (GMT -6) |   | I have zero problem with theocentricity. I rejoice in it, hide in it, am protected in it, glory in it, run to it, embrace and declare it.
Whose is the more traditional position? I guess yours is. Enjoy the agreement of others as far as their approval will take you and so long as it matters! If you can be as confident in affirming the biblical grounds of your view, you'd have something. But we know that ain't happening.
So if you're traditional and I'm heretical as far as history is concern, so be it. I don't mind at all. None of those who condemn my view as heterodox will be holding my hand when I pass into the age to come. But I can at least enjoy being as confidently biblical in my view as you and them. That'll have to do for now I guess!
Hugs and kisses!
Can we play now?
T Post Edited (HumanHypostasis) : 1/23/2008 10:50:32 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/23/2008 11:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom: Whose it the more traditional position? I guess your's is. Enjoy the agreement of others as far as their approval will take you and so long as it matters to you. Now, if you can be as confident in affirming the biblical grounds of your view, you'd have something. But we know that ain't happening.
So if you're traditional and I'm heretical as far as history is concern, so be it. I don't mind at all. None of those who condemn my view as heterodox will be holding my hand when I pass into the age to come. But I can at least enjoy being as confidently biblical in my view as you and them. That'll have to do for now I guess!
What about that Wesleyan Quadrilateral, man? There's POINT to that. To try to make Tradition overly separate from Scripture through polarization...and NOT letting all four (Scripture, Tradition, Reason, Experience) interpenetrate through dynamic tension...is to naturally fall into error.
And this error is not minor. It makes the difference between human beings becoming Children of God...and human beings living "good lives" far below their true potential.
Sure, we can play.
So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them... Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 1/23/2008 11:15:53 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/23/2008 12:13 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tom: Now, if you can be as confident in affirming the biblical grounds of your view, you'd have something. But we know that ain't happening.
Theosis and the Bible
BECOMING LIKE GOD: AN EVANGELICAL DOCTRINE OF THEOSIS JETS 40/2 (June 1997) 257-269 Robert V. Rakestraw
"The strengths of theosis theology outweigh these weaknesses, however. The most significant benefit is that the concept as a whole, if not the specific terminology, is biblical. Pauline teaching supports much that is emphasized by theosis theologians."
Read the rest...
So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them... Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 1/23/2008 12:25:54 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 1/23/2008 1:37 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/23/2008 1:38 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
    |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 1/23/2008 5:41 PM (GMT -6) |   | D: Did you take offense at me using biblical language while talking about "changing your thinking" about a Christian theological perspective that you YOURSELF claim to be heterodox according to Tradition?
Tom: D, don't do this. You KNOW we don't tell people to REPENT for failing to believe what is not traditional. Being traditional and nontraditional do not in themselves tell us a blasted thing about the truth of the position condemned. Being a heretic on 'traditional' grounds says nothing about whether my view (or the traditional view) is the right or wrong one.
We tell people to repent on BIBLICAL grounds, for not believing the gospel, for blatant sin and unkindness, but not for disagreeing with the majority.
D: I specifically used the Greek terminology to try to get away from the more negative moralistic meanings of "repentance" that some of us, through our church histories, we have lodged in our brains.
Tom: Yeah, but I know Greek, so it didn't help.
Whatever Bro.
I believe we're persons, loved by God, redeemed by Christ, and fulfilled as we related interpersonally to Christ. If there's no room for me the Church believing THIS, then I'll solo it Bro. I don't mind. I'm not giving up my experience (just as you wouldn't YOURS) for all the tea in China.
Peace out, T | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/23/2008 5:49 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Imago Dei said...Thanks so much for that, Bruce. So very much.
I also like the tension inherent in the title I gave it on its own thread: "Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Eschaton."
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/23/2008 5:50 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tom: I didn't think telling me that my view would essentially undermine my potential for Christ.
One thing that I have an appreciation for NOW (that I didn't have before at all)...is an appreciation for orthodoxy. This INCLUDES Church Tradition.
The heresies that the Church wrestled with were NOT for no reason. It really WAS the case that inaccurate perspectives about Christ would necessarily undermine the potential for the FULLNESS of our relationship to Christ.
I USED to think that heresies in this day and age were no "big deal". Especially in a time where we don't kill heretics in the Church anymore. Basically, I believed that if Christians just believed that Jesus was the Son of God, who was raised from the dead, destroying death, that that was the main thing...and everything else was gravy.
I was WAAAAAAAY wrong on that one. Way!
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Tom: We tell people to repent on BIBLICAL grounds, for not believing the gospel, for blatant sin and unkindness, but not for disagreeing with the majority.
"the majority" meaning "Church Tradition", right?
Spoken like a true "Sola Scriptura" believing Protestant. 
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Tom: Being a heretic on 'traditional' grounds says nothing about whether my view (or the traditional view) is the right or wrong one.
Dude, do you or do you not believe that the Holy Spirit was ACTIVE AND WORKING in the Saints, Fathers, Councils...and all that?
If you choose to uphold your perspective above ALL THAT?
By the way, you were pretty much Apollinarian the majority of our convo here. But let's test it again. "Did Jesus have a human "heart", like his mother, the Theotokos?" If you say, "No, the "heart" of Jesus was that of (or as has been said..."assumed by") God the Logos himself." then you know.
So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them... Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 1/23/2008 4:55:57 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
   |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/23/2008 9:37 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/24/2008 6:10 PM (GMT -6) |   | I KID YOU NOT, DWAYNE...
| Dr. J. Glenn Friesen |
Articles by Michael M. Morbey
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Michael M. Morbey is an independent researcher currently operating as a diagnostic reference technician at Canada's National Microbiology Laboratory in Winnipeg, Manitoba [http://www.nml.ca/english/index.htm]. Since the 1960's, Morbey has been exploring the relations of reformational philosophy to its historical sources, and making comparisons between reformational philosophy and Eastern Orthodoxy.
1. Michael M. Morbey: "Kuyper, Dooyeweerd and the Reformational Vision: Theosophy Reformed" (.pdf file). In this article, Morbey draws parallels between the philosophy of Abraham Kuyper and Dooyeweerd and Christian theosophy. Morbey was one of the first to make comparisons with Franz von Baader. I am fascinated in how Morbey anticipated some of my own research about Baader. My own articles have shown that Baader's influence on both Kuyper and Dooyeweerd was even more extensive and profound than what Morbey has described. See my articles:
2. Michael M. Morbey: "Parallels to the Byzantine-Hesychast, Divine Essence/Energies Distinction."(.pdf file). In this article, Morbey draws some very interesting parallels between the philosophy of Herman Dooyeweerd and certain ideas of Eastern Orthodoxy. Although these parallels may surprise some Calvinist reformational philosophers, Dooyeweerd had clear influences in the direction of Orthodoxy. One of these influences was J. Woltjer, his teacher at school; Woltjer was interested in some of the ideas of the Church fathers. The more important influence was the works of Franz von Baader. There was a renaissance of interest in Baader in the 1920's, just when Dooyeweerd was formulating his philosophy. And Baader, although a Roman Catholic, preferred Orthodox thought, and devoted a great deal of effort attempting to unite the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches.
3. Michael M. Morbey: "Vollenhoven, Dooyeweerd and Law–A Rejoinder," Anakainosis 4 No. 2 (December, 1981). This is Morbey's Response to Anthony Tol's article, "Vollenhoven, Dooyeweerd and Law," Anakainosis 4 (June 1981).
4. Michael M. Morbey: Letter dated May 11, 1982 (.pdf file). In this letter, Morbey contrasts Dooyeweerd's Calvinism and Orthodoxy with the later Covenant Theology of Zwingli and Bullinger. Morbey sees Vollenhoven's idea of God-Law-cosmos as being related to this Covenant theology, and not to Calvin's original views. He says that Calvin's own Calvinism is more "catholic" than "reformed." He argues that Dooyeweerd's mystical ideas have been suppressed by followers of Vollenhoven and Covenant Theology. And he shows the influence of the Oxford Movement on Abraham Kuyper.
5. Michael M. Morbey: “Kuyper, Dooyeweerd, Romanticism.”
6. Michael M. Morbey: Notes on the term apokatastasis (the restoration of all things). See also the entry for apokatastasis in the Linked Glossary.
7. Morbey's own website contains several other articles of interest regarding Dooyeweerd.
Revised Dec 2/05
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