 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > Christ is the Telos. | Forum Quick Jump
|
 | 
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/22/2008 8:25 AM (GMT -6) |   | I don't listen?
Tom...are you serious?
I listen SO HARD I keep YOUR QUOTES for months and months...listening CLOSELY to what you've been saying.
How do you think I kept the quotes, Tom?
How else have I been able to summarize your statements for your feedback, like I have here? And you REALLY want to say that I don't listen? And THEN you refuse to respond to your OWN quotes?!? Absolutely amazing! 
In the Spirit of Christ, BE Christ to every "Christ" you see when you look at yourself and other human beings. "Insofar as you've done to the least of these..." | | Back to Top | | |
|
Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 2/22/2008 11:00 AM (GMT -6) | | I feel at a loss to adequately engage this topic. Now, I can simply try to describe where I'm at today, what I've picked up as a (very distracted) outside observer on the debate.
It's all about the referrant of words, which is why I'm kinda kicking around the realism/nominalism stuff. I do, at an intuitive level, believe that our words, our labels, our abstract constructions are necessarily incomplete representations of what is real. I don't think it's a dodge for Tom to say he doesn't know. Who can know the extent that a person's model represents reality other than God?
In terms of warrant, I have strong intuitions that the closer our beliefs are to being properly basic, the more warrant we can ascribe to them. On that criteria, I do think that Tom scores better; I don't believe that you can describe (as opposed to explain) from a first-person perspective what it is like to have this sort of unity with God. Maybe someday we'll be there, I don't know... that remains speculative, but today, as sinners, I don't think it's possible.
Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/22/2008 3:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Imago:
The perichoretic indwelling of the human spirit in the Holy Spirit opens up the way for the human spirit to freely choose to be a providential center for God the Logos's Real Presence. We open ourselves up to be molded by Divine "Governance" where the works of Love that come from us are actually "God's" eternal Love spilling itself out in human activity, through our freely choosing to allow Christ-the-Logos-in-me to do all the effective choosing among a range of equally loving, compossible courses of action provided to it by God. Both human will AND divine will are ALWAYS in operation without ceasing...and the creaturely "I" becomes IMPLICIT (but never eliminated) as the human will is always "freely obedient" in all ways to the divine will, through it's poverty-of-spirit and epicletic faith. Dallas Willard describes this as being "carried along" by the power of the "divine drama."
Lord, make me an instrument (channel) of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.
St.Francis of Assisi
In the Spirit of Christ, BE Christ to every "Christ" you see when you look at yourself and other human beings. "Insofar as you've done to the least of these..." | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 2/22/2008 5:11 PM (GMT -6) | |
HumanHypostasis said...
Tom: Looks like you’re saying that in Patristic free-will God is wooing us to freely choose the one course of action he alone determines for us. That wouldn’t be anywhere close to my view. It’s just the tweaked version of determinism D’s been arguing all along—
What you have there is quite different than what they guy said. Were someone to SAY that I'd repeat the cricism that it is EVENT centered rather than relational centered: in EO its not the one event, the one course of action THAT God works, but it is rather the relationship. No one job planned out for Tom from before the world, blue printed or even permissive will. No, its what-ever jog gets used for God's will for your spiritual formation.
I think we can see a parallel between THAT and the diligence/keep-starting-over of EO counter to once-saved-always. God stands outside of time, knowing, AND experiences relationship within time -- because He's God and he can.
So, no, not "one course of action he alone determines for us." Not at all.
WISH YOU COULD HEAR THE PODCAST.
(o) Post Edited (On Vacation) : 2/22/2008 4:18:28 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 2/22/2008 5:14 PM (GMT -6) | |
HumanHypostasis said...
I can't engage POW anymore because he'll never drive the nail in the shingle and leave it there long enough for me to wrap my head around what it is he really believes. SORRY, Tom.
I'm really busy with three projects from work, and another from church, and another two at home.
Sorry.
I remain, "On Vacation" from the board.
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/23/2008 8:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Sahid:
Tom's quotes aren't Apollinarian unless you assume a tripartite anthropology. (or bipartite I guess)
1.) If there are three parts to a person: body, soul, and spirit...
AND
2.) If you think Jesus has one Spirit, both divine and non-human...
THEN
you've got Apollinarism.
Briefly...
1) Tom holds either a tripartite or bipartite view of the human being. (Most likely, tripartite) And the idea of "spirit" being part of the intelligible aspect of the human hypostatic unity (intelligible/sensible) is safely in both views.
2) Some time ago, Tom SPECIFICALLY said these words...I'm talking exact quote...from a post from another thread in November of last year...
For me, to say “one person, two natures” is to say “one spirit, two natures.”
Now, you (Sahid) said "If you think Jesus has one Spirit, both divine and non-human..."
and it was just about 4 days ago that Tom conceded (?) that Jesus indeed had a human spirit.
So, for a lot of the conversation, Tom's grounding assumptions about Christology did NOT take into account the implications Jesus having a full human spirit/heart/nous. Without this understanding, a person could never get the full ramifications of the enhypostasis/anhypostasis idea related to Jesus. And I realized that a while ago...and kept trying to help Tom see it. I really do understand Tom's concerns for preserving the integrity of divine-human personal relationship as he sees it. I really do. At the same time, arguing for that from a stance that is obviously and majorly against the Councils, Creeds, Fathers, and Saints of the Church doesn't make any sense even from the stance of Christian theological scholarship. Can you imagine what Dallas Willard, Millard Erickson, or William Lane Craig would say about someone asserting Jesus not having a human spirit? Seriously.
-------------------------------
Ok, now, Sahid.
What do you see? Really.
Am I crazy or what? I just feel like I'm seeing a round object...and I keep getting told it's square! 
In the Spirit of Christ, BE Christ to every "Christ" you see when you look at yourself and other human beings. "Insofar as you've done to the least of these..." Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 2/23/2008 7:56:51 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/23/2008 9:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
D says creation is about God-God interpersonal relations. I say creation is about God-human interpersonal relations. D says the goal of human being is to be hypostacized (made personal) through the indwelling of human nature (nature is what we provide) of one and only one person, the Logos (the person is what God provides). I say the goal of human being is to become like God in loving in freely creative ways as God does. D says God’s will alone will forever determine one specific course of action for each human being (and thinks this is free from objection because, after all, we’ll WANT it that way). I say God’s will is that we become creators of beauty through self-determination in love. So D’s theology of creation tautological when it comes to identity and deterministic when it comes to causality. My theology of creation is differentiated and diverse when it comes to identity and indeterministic when it comes to causality.
Let's expand our thinking, Tom.
What if God allows us, in theosis, to CHOOSE EITHER STATE FOR OURSELVES as part of the self-disposing freedom, because BOTH ARE COOL to God and within God's purposes?
Hmmm.
Then, BOTH VIEWS can lie in the same worldview.
How's that, Tom? Think that could be possible with God? 
And think about it some more. If God is the God who "lets be"...how "let be-ish" is it for God to allow us to CHOOSE whether or not to be "providential centers" for God...and to what degree..for eternity?
(This possibility is within the paradigm of Loder's view of the interaction between the Divine Center and the human ego periphery in his view of spiritual growth!)
Sounds sweet to me. How about you, Tom?
In the Spirit of Christ, BE Christ to every "Christ" you see when you look at yourself and other human beings. "Insofar as you've done to the least of these..." | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/23/2008 9:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Laying it down.
Jesus, being the Archetype of Creation/Humanity, directly shows us the potential of the intelligible aspect of the human hypostatic unity. Whether we are tripartite or bipartite, this is true. So, if there is a possible state of the human spirit where the "openness to God" and the "centeredness in God" operate at their natural levels (undiminished by sin and gnomic will) such that divine, uncreated person (Christ-the-Son/Logos) can share in non-divine, created (human) experience and non-divine, created (human) nature can share in divine life by "bearing" the divine energies of Christ-the-Son/Logos in one's human becoming ...BOTH via the "unifying" power of the Holy Spirit. Because Christ's human spirit is homoousias with ours (we are made "in his image" after all!), that means OUR spirits have the SAME CAPACITY under the SAME CONDITION of absolute, total faithful humility before God. That's how MARY was the Theotokos! Poverty-of-spirit and epicletic faith...unto incarnational power via the Holy Spirit.
In coming in TOTAL humanity...he lifted the TOTALITY of humanity into it's intended telos and fulfilled potential.
We cannot truly understand and experience this...if we DON'T believe that Jesus fully took on ALL of human nature...including a human "logos", like all other humans.
A person can't BELIEVE what they don't UNDERSTAND to be possible!! 
That's why this has been SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO important to me.
It REALLY IS important for our salvation!
Does this make sense?
Sahid? You still ridin' with me? 
In the Spirit of Christ, BE Christ to every "Christ" you see when you look at yourself and other human beings. "Insofar as you've done to the least of these..." Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 2/23/2008 8:55:08 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/23/2008 10:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Real talk.
God became a human being...so that human beings could be SHOWN that "godhood" is NATURAL to them as spiritual beings who are continously created in the "image of the Image", Christ-the-Logos.
Another way of saying...
God became human...so that humanity could become God.
I must be seriously just delusional or something....cause this makes so much sense to me, I wanna pass out!
In the Spirit of Christ, BE Christ to every "Christ" you see when you look at yourself and other human beings. "Insofar as you've done to the least of these..." Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 2/23/2008 9:03:29 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/23/2008 10:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey,
Just speaking about the 8:41am post above, is it at least COHERENT? I'm not asking if you think it's TRUE. I'm asking if it's COHERENT, given everything we've been talking about...
-------------------
Jesus, being the Archetype of Creation/Humanity, directly shows us the potential of the intelligible aspect of the human hypostatic unity. Whether we are tripartite or bipartite, this is true. So, if there is a possible state of the human spirit where the "openness to God" and the "centeredness in God" operate at their natural levels (undiminished by sin and gnomic will) such that divine, uncreated person (Christ-the-Son/Logos) can share in non-divine, created (human) experience and non-divine, created (human) nature can share in divine life by "bearing" the divine energies of Christ-the-Son/Logos in one's human becoming ...BOTH via the "unifying" power of the Holy Spirit. Because Christ's human spirit is homoousias with ours (we are made "in his image" after all!), that means OUR spirits have the SAME CAPACITY under the SAME CONDITION of absolute, total faithful humility before God. That's how MARY was the Theotokos! Poverty-of-spirit and epicletic faith...unto incarnational power via the Holy Spirit.
In coming in TOTAL humanity...he lifted the TOTALITY of humanity into it's intended telos and fulfilled potential.
We cannot truly understand and experience this...if we DON'T believe that Jesus fully took on ALL of human nature...including a human "logos", like all other humans.
In the Spirit of Christ, BE Christ to every "Christ" you see when you look at yourself and other human beings. "Insofar as you've done to the least of these..." | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/23/2008 10:31 AM (GMT -6) | | The "properly basic" thing you keep talking about is the "mundane ecstasy" that Loder talks about.
When God purifies your spiritual eyes to see Him in all things, you don't GET more "properly basic" than that lived reality. That's why THEORIA is what it is. The LIVED EXPERIENCE of the Triune God in God's Time in God's World in the Present Moment.
For real!
In the Spirit of Christ, BE Christ to every "Christ" you see when you look at yourself and other human beings. "Insofar as you've done to the least of these..." Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 2/23/2008 9:34:08 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
| 367 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 10:57 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|