 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > Christ is the Telos. | Forum Quick Jump
|
 | 
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/23/2008 10:40 AM (GMT -6) |   | |
I don't disagree with you, Corey.
LODER. The Knight's Move: The Relational Logic of the Spirit in Theology and Science, there is a section called "The Spiritual Recentering of Human Development." Here, he discusses his model of spirtual growth. All parentheses and emphases are mine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This model further suggests that human development, currently being studied almost exclusively at the level of ego function and formation, is to be reinterpreted as centering not on the ego (Note: The self-understandings of "Tom", "Dwayne", "Corey" are EGO-FORMATIONS...mental constructs that our brains have garnered because of our EMBODIED experiences between the "Self" and "Lived World"! This is extremely important to understand!) but on intensification as a bipolarity that extends between the ego and the Absolute Unity of Being. This bipolarity may be seen as the spiritual axis for human development, which intersects the arc of ego-development as one of it's polarities, and Absolute Unity at the center, as the other. Ego development (Erikson, Piaget, Kohlberg, etc) may be seen as circumnambulation around the center, the Absolute Unity of Being, but left to itself ego development is inextricably rooted in negation and eventual death. (Note: The mental formation of the ego CANNOT maintain it's self-relational integrity by itself. It needs a transcendent ground to do that. SK was RIGHT!) Spiritual development consists in increased access between the ego and the Divine center, not in ego development per se. Thus, the immature ego of the child may have greater access to the Center and be more spiritually mature than an adult ego with less access. (Note: Remember AKIANE, the artist child of God?) However, the adult ego may be more articulate with less access than the child and so effectively confuse the issue, making it appear incorrectly that ego development is definitive of spiritual development.
----------------------------------
In the Spirit of Christ, BE Christ to every "Christ" you see when you look at yourself and other human beings. "Insofar as you've done to the least of these..." | | Back to Top | | |
|
Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 2/23/2008 10:43 AM (GMT -6) | | D: Coherency?
Corey: I'm reflecting on it. Takes me longer than it takes others.
I presume it is coherent.
But... I'm still concerned that language, in general, is artifical. Coherent, fine. Meaningful, who knows.
Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/23/2008 10:44 AM (GMT -6) | | 
No theological training...whatsoever.
In the Spirit of Christ, BE Christ to every "Christ" you see when you look at yourself and other human beings. "Insofar as you've done to the least of these..." | | Back to Top | | |
|
Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 2/23/2008 11:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Yes. Good. This is where I need to keep hearing more from you. First-person testimony.
I'm just speculating that you may be doing this in reverse, though. God has been transforming you (beautifully!) Now... how to explain that? Ahh... here's a model that seems to fit.
Then again, maybe the model really has been instrumental (this is what I believe about you) but is nonetheless incorrect (I don't know). It may be useful as a tool in God's work process in you, who is working even incorrect things together for good. Efficiency does not necessarily mean ultimately true.
I just want you to hold the model more tentatively than you appear to be (again, my "P"-ness speaking!) What's most sound and most important is ongoing lived intimacy before the face of God. I'm sure we agree here.
Anyway, if there's ANYTHING I can testify to in my life, it's that my models have come and gone. Things I once held as conviction I now look back upon with some embarrassment.
I just don't think any of these models carries as much warrant as beliefs formed by immediacy before God. That's all I'm saying. Not all that controversial, I think.
Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are. Post Edited (Corey) : 2/23/2008 10:20:36 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 2/23/2008 12:13 PM (GMT -6) | | D: 1) Tom holds either a tripartite or bipartite view of the human being. (Most likely, tripartite)
Z: I didn't know that. If this is really the case, then I agree that it's apollinarian. But I personally don't give much credence to tripartite or bipartite divisions. How (apart from taking poetic language literally or through a mysictical experience of private revelation) is either view anything more than a complete stab in the dark? Why not four parts or 17 or pi? It all sounds a bit silly to me.
D: Can you imagine what Dallas Willard, Millard Erickson, or William Lane Craig would say about someone asserting Jesus not having a human spirit?
Z: All three are very impressive. They've all shown me things I may have never come to without their writing. But all three have points where I am convinced emotion or some outside consideration takes over and puts what appear to me to be completely unjustified and unnecessary assumptions. And belief in a literal "penetrat[ing] even to dividing soul and spirit," is exactly the sort unfounded shot in the dark I'd expect them to make.
D: What if God allows us, in theosis, to CHOOSE EITHER STATE FOR OURSELVES as part of the self-disposing freedom, because BOTH ARE COOL to God and within God's purposes?
Z: What makes you think "both are cool"? I think the goal is "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you." There is a particular "just as" which describes the telos. Are you saying that God may be cool with humans frustrating his telos?
D: Because Christ's human spirit is homoousias with ours (we are made "in his image" after all!), that means OUR spirits have the SAME CAPACITY under the SAME CONDITION of absolute, total faithful humility before God. That's how MARY was the Theotokos!
Z: Sure, but this is all speculative. It is a squeezing of God into the mind of Plato and Aristotle. Perhaps the Greek categories are insufficient. Why should I even care to speak in terms of ousia? It's like trying to understand the Trinity when the only images you have are of shamrocks and nuclear families. These are all metaphors, approximations. It's like saying photosynthesis takes place in Jesus because he is the Vine. These terms have limits.
Your definition of spirit: "the 'breath' from God (see Gen. 2:7), which the animals lack... ...That [by which] man apprehends God and enters into communion with him." If Jesus and all men have this spirit, we must go further to say Jesus does not have any further means (divine spirit) by which he apprehends and communes. Then you can come to the conclusion that our capacities are identical to Christ's.
Corey: No, it's not "all we have". Not EVERYTHING is a model, an abstracted representation of reality. We can know God in properly basic ways. THAT'S my general concern these days, D.
Z: When it comes to symbolically expressing what is not a shared directed experience (whatever that means), I don't see how we are not bound to imperfect "models" and language.
D: That's why I wonder. Doesn't the FRUIT that's borne from the belief mean anything with this? It doesn't seem to have much weight at all.
Z: You can know the tree by it's fruit. But I don't think it's so easy to tell the precise composition of the soil or the exact DNA by its fruit. No one is doubting your sincere and real relationship with Christ. And that is the "tree". I think you've stretched this metaphor beyond its limits as well.
D: In coming in TOTAL humanity...he lifted the TOTALITY of humanity into it's intended telos and fulfilled potential... We cannot truly understand and experience this...if we DON'T believe that Jesus fully took on ALL of human nature...including a human "logos", like all other humans... A person can't BELIEVE what they don't UNDERSTAND to be possible!!...That's why this has been SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO important to me... It REALLY IS important for our salvation!... Does this make sense?
Z: I happen to disagree with Athanasius on this point. I don't hold to any metaphysical transaction view of salvation. I don't see the incarnation as logically necessary for salvation. Squeezing God into Greek clothes.
www.opentheismboard.org/default.aspx?m=96753&f=8&p=1#m96822
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - StavesacrePost Edited (Sahid) : 2/23/2008 11:25:10 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/23/2008 12:38 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Sahid:
Your definition of spirit (Imago's note: BISHOP KALLISTOS WARE'S definition of Spirit) : "the 'breath' from God (see Gen. 2:7), which the animals lack... ...That [by which] man apprehends God and enters into communion with him." If Jesus and all men have this spirit, we must go further to say Jesus does not have any further means (divine spirit) by which he apprehends and communes [with God]. Then you can come to the conclusion that our capacities are identical to Christ's.
Imago:
THAT'S EXACTLY I WANT TO SAY!
But we CAN'T say that if we DON'T BELIEVE that Jesus actually had a human spirit!
Apollinarianism takes away the FULL HUMANITY of Christ!!
In the Spirit of Christ, BE Christ to every "Christ" you see when you look at yourself and other human beings. "Insofar as you've done to the least of these..." Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 2/23/2008 11:49:44 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 2/23/2008 12:40 PM (GMT -6) | | | D: Because Christ's human spirit is homoousias with ours (we are made "in his image" after all!), that means OUR spirits have the SAME CAPACITY under the SAME CONDITION of absolute, total faithful humility before God. That's how MARY was the Theotokos!
S: It seems to me that the exact opposite is the testimony of scripture. The constant argument of the NT seems to be that we are able to be like Christ because we have the same Holy Spirit that he received after his ressurection. How Christ was sinless prior to his death/ressurection is never explained explicitly, to my knowledge.
Mary was able to be the Theotokos the same reason why she was able to be a mother, period. Nothing about Christ's spirit is necessary to explain that. How would the EO folks argue otherwise?
| | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/23/2008 12:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Similtude,
Basically what we are saying is this:
Jesus had EVERYTHING that any general human being would have, as far as hypostatic composition. Both intelligible (spirit/nous, soul) and sensible (body). Saying that Jesus is FULLY HUMAN and therefore homoousias with us...means that the capacities that we see Jesus' human nature accomplish by the power of his human spirit indwelling Father's Spirit...is possible for ALL human spirits created in the image of the Image.
Jesus is like us IN EVERY WAY except sin!
We have the SAME NATURE as Christ in his humanity!
In the Spirit of Christ, BE Christ to every "Christ" you see when you look at yourself and other human beings. "Insofar as you've done to the least of these..." Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 2/23/2008 11:51:24 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/23/2008 12:56 PM (GMT -6) | | | During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the One who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
What if God were one of us? 
In the Spirit of Christ, BE Christ to every "Christ" you see when you look at yourself and other human beings. "Insofar as you've done to the least of these..." | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/23/2008 1:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Similtude:
I'm still not seeing why we need the Holy Spirit to partake of that kind of fruit if we can be like Jesus without it.
One cannot talk about Christ without talking about the Holy Spirit. At all.
Theologically, what does "Christ" mean? Anointed with what?
The idea of EPIKLESIS builds upon this reality!
In the Spirit of Christ, BE Christ to every "Christ" you see when you look at yourself and other human beings. "Insofar as you've done to the least of these..." | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/23/2008 1:16 PM (GMT -6) | | I'll be using this text in the sermon...
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Romans 8:14-17
In the Spirit of Christ, BE Christ to every "Christ" you see when you look at yourself and other human beings. "Insofar as you've done to the least of these..." | | Back to Top | | |
|
Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 2/23/2008 2:12 PM (GMT -6) | | | I must not be following you, D. On the one hand, you seem to be saying that Christ had a HUMAN spirit, thereby proving that we have the same capacities as he did. But then you seem to be saying that the human spirit he had was the one with which he was anointed. Are you saying that humans are anointed as was Christ simply by having a human spirit?
P.S. I just saw your last question about Zach's quote. I would say that we have a human spirit PRIOR to receiving the Holy Spirit. Now the one bears witness with the other. So I have two spirits, now. Only the Holy Spirit renders me an adopted son, whereby I cry ABBA to the Father.
Post Edited (Similtude) : 2/23/2008 1:16:12 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
| 367 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 10:48 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|