I: Basically, what I see happening is that people take the uniqueness of Christ's NATURAL divine humanity and Incarnation...and somehow turn that into some "barrier" to the rest of us being like Christ...or even more having Christ completely live through us "Since he's SO unique, we can NEVER be just like him." or something like that. Some things I've heard...from believers...

S: I've seen the similar approach with Rom. 8. But it seems to me if we take that route, we have to assume a lot of other scriptures are flat false. And once we go that route, we're right back to rendering as plausible the possibility that the historical Christ is the product of a religious agenda. These guys either were prophets/apostles of Christ, whose words were confirmed by signs and wonders, or not.

The overwhelming tenor of the post-ressurection NT is that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. I.e., we can do all through Christ (i.e., the Spirit, which is his spirit, now) that he strengthens us to do. And it would seem to be obvious from many a scripture that he strengthens us to do the will of the Father.

Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 2/24/2008 2:13:59 PM (GMT-6)

LORD'S DAY 13

33  Q.  Why is he called God's "only Son"
        when we also are God's children?

    A.  Because Christ alone is the eternal, natural Son of God.^1
        We, however, are adopted children of God;
          adopted by grace through Christ.^2

    ^1  John 1:1-3, 14, 18; Heb. 1
    ^2  John 1:12; Rom. 8:14-17; Eph. 1:5-6

I think you all can see your discussion in this text.

Post Edited (un-nailed shingle) : 2/24/2008 9:19:31 PM (GMT-6)

• Father Thomas Hopko - Creativity and Art - part 1
• Father Thomas Hopko - Creativity and Art - part 2

AT    http://ancientfaith.com/specials/hopko_lectures

Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 2/25/2008 7:53:15 AM (GMT-6)

Goal:  to participate, resemble, imitate the divine life in creaturely life;

 

Mary is not the great exception, but the great example.

Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 2/25/2008 10:04:13 AM (GMT-6)

Mary has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with the Gospel.

If you understand this, then you really start to see some things differently...

FROM THE LATER HALF OF 2.1

Hopko:

There are four Gospels because the four gospels must be presented in literary form...acording to the literary genres of the scriptures in the OT.

Mark is the appocalyptic book the clash between good and evil, light and darkness and Satan, it ends starkly with the empty tomb. No human being anounces the resurrection in mark's gospel. only god does. No human being confesses jesus as the son of god in mark's gospel, only the devils do.

Matthew is the Torah, the law. Jesus is the new Moses. In the Christmas story he has to go to Egypt. He has to come out of egypt. With Matthew you have Jesus going on a mountain saying, "it was said of old, but i say to you...if your righteousness does not exceed the scribe and the pharsies you will never enter the kingdom of god..." you have the final word of god given by the final prophet of god, whom moses himself said, refered by peter on the day of pentacost--the very first sermon in christian history (Acts)--that moses said "the prophet will arise that if you don't listen to him you've had it",That's jesus. that's why when the asked john the baptist ' are you the prophet' he said 'no' For us christian jesus is the THE prophet--messianic title-- he is the last one (it ain't mohamid -- the koran likes jesus and mary, except no incarnation no crucifixion) This is very important for us, because it tell us that we are all created to be temples of god. it tells us that we should raise our children to be temples of god. we should dedicate ourselves and them to god. we should raise them in the holy of holies. (Essenes: hopko figures mary/martha/john-baptist/jesus/mary -- they were ready for the end of the corrupted temple, and ready for the messianic age, taught virginity and celebacy--which was rare. Matthew's gospel Jesus had to have a legal father, economy of salvation) Relation to temple already prepared in the judaic roots, jesus said 'i will destroy this temple and raise it in three days--in john's gospel. stephen saying 'the god who made heaven and earth does not live in temples made with human hands. paul; we are the temple of the living god--don''t you know that your body is the temple of the living god. tHIS was part of the culture on the eve of the messiah. annunciaiton icon, in her hand the theotokos is weaving/knitting something--tradition has it that she was weaving the curtain of the temple. If she was part of the essene tradition...why would she be weaving the curtain of the temple? when they were anti-temple? Answer: because when the messiah comes the curtain is wrent in twain, ripped apart--the holy of holies is uncovered. We all become the holy of holies. Christ the messiah dwells in every one of us. He has to be born in us. We bear him. Paul: 'I am in travail until Christ is formed in you' . What happens in mary literally--archangel says...the lord is with you...mary asks how can this be" Anglel: the holy spirit will come upon you, the power of the host high shall overshaddow you, the one born of you will be holy. she's pregnant with this child of the holy spirit. Elizabeth meeting. Blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of that that was spoken to her by the lord. THE HEART OF THE MATTER. WHY SHE IS GRACED. full of grace. For a creature EVERYTHING is just Faith and Grace--that's all it is. Eph. "We are saved by grace through faith" -- its true! Not by works lest anyone should boast. We are god's workmanship, created for good works from the beginning" -- but it is by faith and by grace; not anything else. MARY is only faith and only grace. Nothing but faith and nothing but grace. She is blessed because she believed. She believed--she was capable of belief. Faith is the center of the christian faith. Center of Abrahamic faith -- to believe god...and that is what is counted righteousness. That's the only way you can become righteous. Mary asks the angel, 'how can this be?' - you have the answer: "with god nothing is impossible." [that text is only used three times in scripture: mary and elizabeth are pregnant; when jesus is in the garden in mark's gospel -- abba father, all things are possible, let this cup pass from me, never the less not my will but your will be done; ] Annunciation is central in our consideration of mary and ourselves, because she is ready to listen. she is ready to believe, whatever the cost. her whole life is nothing but that--prepared for that moment before she was even born. That the one born of her is god. god from ogd light from light the logos of god who is god. in her the word becomes flesh. Ephriem of syrria: "She conceived the logos by way of her ear." When she heard that logos it became flesh in her womb. LIterally so: Icon of the Sign. Issiah 7 verse: 'and this will be a sign for you, a virgin shall conceive...his name shall be imanuel, God with us.' The center of the christian faith. THIS ICON TELLS US that WE have to beleive. We have to hear the word of god. It has to enter into us. We have to become the tabornacle of god. we have to become the holy of holies. we have to become the place where god's word is dwelling. Tht word has to dwell richly in us bringing forth fruit. it can not happen unless the spirit of god is upon us. "How can this be?" The SPirit of god shall come upon you , the power of the most high shall overshaddow you. THAT'S FOR ALL OF US! when we celebrate christmas, we are celebrating what is supposed to be happening to us! Spiritually, in our own way, in our own life. The word is to come in us, is to bear fruit in us. And that very flesh is to become our flesh and his flesh -- one flesh. (And of course you get into the teaching of the holy eucharist, where we eat his flesh and drink his blood, and he enters into us and we become his living temple. That's the communion that is given to us; but it happens first literally in mary so that it can happen in all of us...by faith and by grace.) .

 =======================

You've got to have four forms--you can't conflate it.

  MATTHEW - the torah book... judaic view

MARK - the appocalyptic book

LUKE - thi historical book... luke/acts is the universal view

JOHN - the theology book

 

what do you see, D.?