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Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
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   Posted 3/18/2008 8:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

First, what is meant by "eternal power" and "divine nature"?

Second, when, where, and how have they been clearly seen?

Third, even if we grant the truth of this verse, how does it have anything to do with the "shameful lusts" that end the chapter? So I know God has eternal power and divine nature; does it follow that I must also know that it is wrong to engage in homosexual sex (v. 27) or disobey parents (v. 30)?

Is Paul talking about the human race in general, implying that men once clearly saw all God's invisible qualities and that now our futile thinking and dark, foolish hearts (v. 21) make us ignorant of such qualities (and therefore provides us an excuse)? That's the only way I can see right now of rescuing this passage.

Any better ideas?


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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Similitude
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   Posted 3/21/2008 10:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Z: First, what is meant by "eternal power" and "divine nature"?

J: I wonder if the "eternal" refers to both "power" and "divine nature."

Z: Second, when, where, and how have they been clearly seen?

J: I think the way to make sense of it is that people apprehend the world in terms of the relation of means->end(s). That being the case, the world is recognized, at some point, as a creation by virtually all people. And that being the case, the vastness and ancientness of the world necessarily implies that its creator has great power and "eternal" existence. I don't know that we should read the greek word to mean "eternal" so much as of great duration.

Z: Third, even if we grant the truth of this verse, how does it have anything to do with the "shameful lusts" that end the chapter? So I know God has eternal power and divine nature; does it follow that I must also know that it is wrong to engage in homosexual sex (v. 27) or disobey parents (v. 30)?

J: If we interpret reality in terms of a means->end(s) relationship, as most people seemingly do, then it seems to me that what people think of as morally "wrong" is that which seems contrary to the ends for which we exist. So God's power does not indicate WHAT is wrong. Rather, that which is contrary to the ends of our existence is necessarily contrary to Him who intended those ends in the first place. In other words, if the world is created, any temporal ends of that created order are ends of its creator.

Z: Is Paul talking about the human race in general, implying that men once clearly saw all God's invisible qualities and that now our futile thinking and dark, foolish hearts (v. 21) make us ignorant of such qualities (and therefore provides us an excuse)? That's the only way I can see right now of rescuing this passage.

J: It seems to me he is saying the opposite. Paul is saying that having apprehended these divine attributes once, humans are without excuse for having suppressed these truths in unrighteousness. Similarly, men, having ONCE known that their actions were contrary to the apprehended ends of their existence, and yet still continuing in such behavior, are without excuse for having suppressed those truths.
 
If humans have no capacity to successfully infer the ends of their existence in terms of obligatory behavior, then obviously Paul's statements are false. But if humans have no such capacity, it is hard to imagine why anyone would ever feel guilt or see a need to repent at all.

The whole section is a follow-up to the fact that faith in the gospel is what is reckoned as righteousness to God. IOW, maybe Paul is anticipating, as he does elsewhere in Romans, the typical "why does God find fault" argument to this kind of justification. Paul then shows that man cannot be justified by any natural, moral righteousness for the reasons he proceeds to give.

Paul's basic argument is that man doesn't even behave properly with what he IS given. God requires that which is given, however little it might be. And apart from forgiveness and repentance, humans pretty much just fail on those terms.


 

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One Love
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   Posted 3/21/2008 10:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Good stuff, Jeff. ;-)


Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"

Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.

 

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Sahid
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   Posted 3/23/2008 4:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff: That being the case, the world is recognized, at some point, as a creation by virtually all people. And that being the case, the vastness and ancientness of the world necessarily implies that its creator has great power and "eternal" existence.

Zach: So would it be accurate to say some 'philosophical' or 'modern' people would be "with excuse" under Paul's conception?

Jeff: It seems to me he is saying the opposite. Paul is saying that having apprehended these divine attributes once, humans are without excuse for having suppressed these truths in unrighteousness. Similarly, men, having ONCE known that their actions were contrary to the apprehended ends of their existence, and yet still continuing in such behavior, are without excuse for having suppressed those truths.

Zach: When you say 'humans' and 'men' are you using them collectively? Better yet, is Paul using them collectively? IOW, is it that Joe understood the nature of God (and therefore sexual ethics) making him without excuse, or is it that humanity has understood and so humanity is without excuse?

Jeff: If humans have no capacity to successfully infer the ends of their existence in terms of obligatory behavior, then obviously Paul's statements are false. But if humans have no such capacity, it is hard to imagine why anyone would ever feel guilt or see a need to repent at all.

Zach: Successfully... That's like me successfully inferring that I should not touch the stove because it is possessed by a fire-spirit. I've serendipitously stumbled across an accurate conclusion using highly suspect reasoning. Many ancient people looked at the world and came to very different conclusions about divine nature. Quite often they saw jealously, violence, and brevity in creation and inferred that the gods possessed the same qualities. These same reflections likely gave rise to feelings of uncleanliness (guilt is a relatively recent development) and rituals of purification and reconciliation. Certain objects and activities gave rise to jealously and violence, and so these were made sacred or taboo.

Considering this, is it appropriate to soften the universal impression I get from this passage?


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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Similitude
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   Posted 3/23/2008 9:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Z: These same reflections likely gave rise to feelings of uncleanliness (guilt is a relatively recent development) and rituals of purification and reconciliation.
 
J: How could we possibly know that guilt is a relatively recent development for humans?
 
Z: Considering this, is it appropriate to soften the universal impression I get from this passage?

J: It seems that even atheists have a meaningful concept of God, LFW, final causes, etc. Moreover, I haven't talked at length to a great many folks involved in "habitual" sexual sin, but those with whom I have, at one point or another, they told me that they felt guilt at some time, at least, about their lifestyle. Some of them claimed that their guilt was due to religious brainwashing. Others didn't. But they all admitted to FEELING guilt prior.

I assume Paul is not trying to reject the principle that God only requires what is given. And clearly there are some children that are so psychologically abused that they can't POSSIBLY intellectually develop properly. That being the case, God can't POSSIBLY judge by the same standards as those who were given "much."

So no, I don't think Paul is trying to be absolutely universal. (He even seems to discuss the failure of Jews separately, thereafter, for the case that they didn't recognize themselves in that first description of human failure.) Rather, he seems to be making the point that, for all practical purposes, it is generally true that humans don't seek God with what is given them--rather, justification occurs as God seeks humans.


 

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Sahid
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   Posted 3/23/2008 5:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
J: How could we possibly know that guilt is a relatively recent development for humans?

Z: We can't know for sure, but generally speaking, the earlier the document, the more objective the understanding of fault i.e. unholiness or uncleanliness spread by physical contact. Subjective fault (recognition of "brokenness" and a sense of alienation) tends to be found in later documents, and the revolutionary idea of Jeremiah and Ezekiel that each man is responsible for his own sin and the hope of a new covenant comes last.

I'm no expert, but from what I've been able to gather it seems that rituals also reflect this progression: first physical cleansing rituals, then unifying community structuring/sustaining rituals, then rituals of atonement.


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 3/23/2008 6:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Z: We can't know for sure, but generally speaking, the earlier the document, the more objective the understanding of fault i.e. unholiness or uncleanliness spread by physical contact. Subjective fault (recognition of "brokenness" and a sense of alienation) tends to be found in later documents, and the revolutionary idea of Jeremiah and Ezekiel that each man is responsible for his own sin and the hope of a new covenant comes last.

I'm no expert, but from what I've been able to gather it seems that rituals also reflect this progression: first physical cleansing rituals, then
 
J: I must confess I am at a complete loss to imagine how guilt could just somehow append to human psychological experience at some historical point of time. It seems obvious to me that there are religions to this day that are literally obsessed with the objective. Does that mean they have no sense of subjective fault? I can't see it. People are diverse now. I suspect they always have been.


 

Post Edited (Similtude) : 3/23/2008 8:04:33 PM (GMT-5)

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