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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/3/2008 5:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | As per "The many logoi are the single divine Logos passed through the prism of God’s creative act and broken into innumerable separate beams.". . .
What if I say that the many painted expressions of Vincent Van Gogh "are" the bursting-forth in diverse ways--being both diverse and comprising a unified body of artwork--"are" the unique, personal manifestation of the dutch painter.
"Are" is a word that is wonderful. But when using it we should read slowly and carefully.
I noticed some differences between how D. used it and how Maxiumus and Bradshaw used it. But that will unfortunately get lost in the shuffle.
(o)Post Edited (plato's_playdough) : 4/3/2008 5:22:09 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 4/3/2008 5:14 PM (GMT -6) | |
"I am-in-I Am" said...
It was from Jesus' NON-DIVINE RELATIONAL PERSPECTIVE...coming from the exercise of Jesus' HUMAN (NON-DIVINE) DISPOSITION that these statements came...
"Why do you call me good? There is only one that is good...and that's God alone."
"Not my will, but Your Will be done."
"My God, My God! Why have you forsaken me?"
When tempted with self-idolatry, he said...to Satan, of all beings...
"It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"
There seems to be SOME level of self-perceived differentiation from God going on here...doesn't there?
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Joe McCowan
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| Posted 4/3/2008 5:19 PM (GMT -6) | |
plato's_playdough said...As per "The many logoi are the single divine Logos passed through the prism of God’s creative act and broken into innumerable separate beams.". . .
What if I say that the many painted expressions of Vincent Van Gogh "are" the bursting-forth in diverse ways--being both diverse and comprising a unified body of artwork--"are" the unique, personal manifestation of the dutch painter.
"Are" is a word that is wonderful. But when using it we should read slowly and carefully.
I noticed some differences between how D. used it and how Maxiumus and Bradshaw used it. But that will unfortunately get lost in the shuffle.
This is probably an illustration I could live with. The artwork never becomes equal to the artist, it is just a reflection or expression of the artist's creativity. Certainly the "Body of art" does not replace the "Body of the Artist".
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/3/2008 5:22 PM (GMT -6) | | | T h a n k s, J o e!
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/3/2008 5:30 PM (GMT -6) | | | DAVID BENTLEY HART, on Fr. Stephen's blog
I have made reference to an interview with David Bentley Hart, an Orthodox theologian, in an appendix to the article on “What makes the world go ’round.” The more I have read his response the more important I think it is for others to read. I have always held his writing in a bit of “awe” - he is perhaps the most careful of modern Orthodox writers (well-chosen words that make careful points are a hallmark of his work.) I can think of no better statement on the problem of “natural evil” than his work on the subject. This short interview does an excellent job of encapsulating that argument. Thus I thought it worth making a more visible link to the article Where Was God?
This entry was posted on April 3, 2008 at 11:13 am and is filed under Orthodox Doctrine, knowledge of God, religion. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
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Tom
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| Posted 4/3/2008 5:54 PM (GMT -6) | | B: What if I say that the many painted expressions of Vincent Van Gogh "are" the bursting-forth in diverse ways--being both diverse and comprising a unified body of artwork--"are" the unique, personal manifestation of the dutch painter.
Tom: Then I would say…
1) Van Gogh’s paintings aren’t ‘personal’ manifestations of the artist (they don’t make choices, love, relate, suffer, perceive, etc.), and
2) More importantly…
WE
ARE
ARTISTS.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 4/3/2008 7:49 PM (GMT -6) | |
Tom said...
B: What if I say that the many painted expressions of Vincent Van Gogh "are" the bursting-forth in diverse ways--being both diverse and comprising a unified body of artwork--"are" the unique, personal manifestation of the dutch painter.
Tom: Then I would say…
1) Van Gogh’s paintings aren’t ‘personal’ manifestations of the artist (they don’t make choices, love, relate, suffer, perceive, etc.),
Speaking for myself--if not for "Vince"--I'd argue that the sculptures of mine that actually rise to "art" ARE "personal manfestations" of me. (Further, something could be said about the significance of when the viewer is part of the synergy that makes art alive.) Just like love, joy, peace are "energies" of God AND are energies of US, even so is an alive painting or a vital sculpture the presence of the artist's in this service. Following this comparison, note that joy and love and peace IN us does not diminish them in God, and nor does making a scupture dismember the artist. (Making art and loving are not dangerous! lol )
Bradshaw (in "Divine Glory and Divine Energies"):
Basil makes the same point by drawing upon the Pauline description of the gifts of the Spirit as “energies,” God as He is present to us and as we can know Him through our own activity. Although Gregory of Nyssa in the Life of Moses does not use the term energeia, he too is making a similar point. To behold God, to share in the divine glory, is to follow Him; there is no other way...
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 4/3/2008 8:40 PM (GMT -6) | | | Bradshaw: "individual logoi are the “meanings” of things, their significance within the mind of God..."
The underlined Maximian quote is too stark, and prone to be misshaped.
The Bradshaw quote says that the same little-word that creates their things also sustains them. there is a tight connection between the thought behind creating and the role the thing in God's big picture. So I rework it to say: "logoi are the significance withing the mind of God of the things."
The Eastern Fathers sometimes adopt an idiom that is strikingly reminiscent of Plato. They speak, not only of discerning the single Logos within the created world, but also of discerning the individual logos of each creature. The individual logoi are the “meanings” of things, their significance within the mind of God. They are also the eternal exemplars in accordance with which things are created. They thus play a role similar to that of the Forms in the philosophy of Plato. The difference is that, for the Fathers, each individual logos is part of an ordered discourse. The many logoi are the single divine Logos passed through the prism of God’s creative act and broken into innumerable separate beams. Their collective meaning is simply the Logos Himself as He is manifested in creation. As St. Maximus puts it, “the one Logos is many logoi, and the many logoi are one Logos.”[i] The logoi are thus personal in a way that the Forms are not. They are God’s declaration of who He is and His call to all creatures to return to Him.
(o)Post Edited (plato's_playdough) : 4/3/2008 8:59:52 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/3/2008 9:34 PM (GMT -6) | | God is self-giving love.
Jesus-Christ-the-Logos is self-giving love.
In Jesus-Christ-the-Logos, "I" am self-giving love.
In Jesus-Christ-the-Logos, "you" are self-giving love.
In Jesus-Christ-the-Logos, "we" are all love: "God", "Christ Jesus", "I", and "you"
And that love is divine, eternal...and one.
Does...this...make...sense?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Joe McCowan
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Total Posts : 39
| Posted 4/4/2008 6:41 AM (GMT -6) | |
Tom said...
B: What if I say that the many painted expressions of Vincent Van Gogh "are" the bursting-forth in diverse ways--being both diverse and comprising a unified body of artwork--"are" the unique, personal manifestation of the dutch painter.
Tom: Then I would say…
1) Van Gogh’s paintings aren’t ‘personal’ manifestations of the artist (they don’t make choices, love, relate, suffer, perceive, etc.), and
2) More importantly…
WE
ARE
ARTISTS.
Agreed. Like most analogies, this one was not perfect. Perhaps a better one would be students of Van Gogh continuing to make pieces of art that reflect his teaching and example.
We are not Christ the Logos. We will never be Christ the Logos. We are to follow Jesus into the presence of God as His disciples, not as Him. Tom seems to rightly reject any notion of the Chuch replacing the role and person of Christ. I agree completely.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/4/2008 6:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Joe:
We are not Christ the Logos. We will never be Christ the Logos. We are to follow Jesus into the presence of God as His disciples, not as Him. Tom seems to rightly reject any notion of the Chuch replacing the role and person of Christ. I agree completely.
It's not a matter of the Church replacing the person of Christ. Not at all. But no biggie.
*********************
Tom:
I'm done. Just outta stuff to say. I've been repeating myself since January, adding nothing new. So I'm through. Said so twice before. Three strikes and you're out, so I'm out. Time to move on.
Do you.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Joe McCowan
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| Posted 4/4/2008 7:22 AM (GMT -6) | |
"I am-in-I Am" said...Joe: We are not Christ the Logos. We will never be Christ the Logos. We are to follow Jesus into the presence of God as His disciples, not as Him. Tom seems to rightly reject any notion of the Chuch replacing the role and person of Christ. I agree completely.It's not a matter of the Church replacing the person of Christ. Not at all. But no biggie.
If we become the Logos (as the sum of the logoi), how could the Logos continue to be distinct from the logoi? I am really trying to understand where you are coming from, but maybe I am missing something.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/4/2008 7:38 AM (GMT -6) | | | Last words...
Leron Shults
Page 80-93.
He said it all.
Nicely.
If you agree with how he talks about spiritual transformation...breaking down the "I, not I, but Christ"...then you've got my belief. Straight up. He just lays it out there. Takes from Loder and everything! Talks about ego development and how it plays into everything. The man's a genius!
He also has an interesting critique of the whole enhypostasis/anhypostasis idea. (141-146; onward) Nesteruk might disagree with him on some things (See Light from the East)...but I think the major points still the same.
Jesus' human spirit doesn't exist or "subsist" EXCEPT in it's hypostatic union to God the Logo's Holy Spirit in the one person of "God's Anointed One." To say that Jesus' human spirit existed outside of God the Logos' becoming the Incarnate Word...or could be so...would be erroneous.
No other human spirits "subsists" in that SINGULAR relationship to God the Logos. Only the ONE Archetype of Humanity, Christ, the eternal Son. Our human spirits "subsist" in reality WITHOUT in being an "effect" of direct incarnation of a divine Person. There is ONE direct Incarnation of ONE God...and that's Jesus of Nazareth.
And...
in my mind, this does mean that, with respect to NATURE, human spirits (and the created "I"s of the human brain/nous interaction) were CREATED in such a way to bear the subjectivity of God the Logos in human experience via the created human spirit's indwelling of the Uncreated Holy Spirit...as a natural function. "God's Anointed" is born and borne at every "present moment" within our spirits by the unifying power of the Holy Spirit...as we live epicletically and eucharistically. Mary, the Theotokos, shows us the way as she bears God the Son in her own being through the exercise of FAITH from her human SPIRIT...as the incarnational power of the Holy Spirit overshadows her.
Just figured I'd put this... 
fx(a) : fy(b) :: fx(b) : f a-1(y)
Look at what it means! (page 80)
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/4/2008 8:15:37 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/4/2008 7:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Joe:
If we become the Logos (as the sum of the logoi), how could the Logos continue to be distinct from the logoi? I am really trying to understand where you are coming from, but maybe I am missing something
I'll try to think of some way to explain.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/4/2008 8:37 AM (GMT -6) | | "...the purpose of the universe is not human beings considered in their natural condition, but unique creatures in whom the Logos is indwelling and who are chosen to transfigure the universe by bringing it to the ultimate union with God."
Nesteruk. Light from the East. 230.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/4/2008 9:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Nope.
Theosis...and epiklesis.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/4/2008 9:10 AM (GMT -6) | | "So I say that the aristocrat is one who derives his being, his life, and his happiness from God alone, with God and in God and not at all from his knowledge, perception, or love of God, or any such thing....This much is certain: when a man is happy, happy to the core and root of beatitude, he is no longer conscious of himself or anything else. He is conscious only of God...To be conscious of knowing God is to know about God and self. As I have just been explaining, the agent of the soul which enables one to see is one thing and the agent by which one knows that he sees is another."
Meister Eckhart
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/4/2008 10:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Joe:
Not apotheosis nor henosis? Do you agree that man remains ontologically distinct from God?
Yes, sir. Completely ontological distinct. No fusion or confusion of natures, having the same level of distinction/differentiation of created and Uncreated that we see in the hypostatic union in Christ-the-Logos...but with the same unifying perichoretic indwelling of the two that we also see in the hypostatic union.
Theosis and epiklesis do NOT confuse natures, like henosis or apotheosis.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Joe McCowan
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Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 39
| Posted 4/4/2008 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | |
"I am-in-I Am" said...Joe: Not apotheosis nor henosis? Do you agree that man remains ontologically distinct from God?Yes, sir. Completely ontological distinct. No fusion or confusion of natures, having the same level of distinction/differentiation of created and Uncreated that we see in the hypostatic union in Christ-the-Logos...but with the same unifying perichoretic indwelling of the two that we also see in the hypostatic union. Theosis and epiklesis do NOT confuse natures, like henosis or apotheosis.
Theosis as defined by the Fathers, I agree with. You have inspired me to study as your previous post did not seem to represent theosis as I understand it.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/4/2008 12:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Joe:
Theosis as defined by the Fathers, I agree with.
Then we both agree on that score. 
( another link)
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/4/2008 12:05:22 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/4/2008 12:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Christ himself was treated as “the New Man” and the last Adam. The divine plan of salvation was consummated, the kingdom of God inaugurated through Christ, but the ultimate things were yet to come in fullness and glory. The king had come, but the kingdom was still to come. The promise of the kingdom was granted to the church by the Holy Spirit. The Church has lived since then in two dimensions: in sight of ongoing secular history and world events in the time of decay and oblivion, but also in the time of the heavenly kingdom inaugurated by the risen savior (in which the church has lived epicletically in the expectation of the kingdom.)
The coming of Christ and the resurrection changed completely the human situation, for in fallen existence, the time form of the world is characterized by law (nomos); this implies that humans were involved in an irreversible chain of decay and corruption, which led them to mortality with no hope of undoing the things they had done. Everything that had been done became ontologically necessary, so that there was no way to overcome this necessity, which is indicated by the word “law”. The coming of Christ and the resurrection relieved us from this law; we are still living in the world or “fallen” temporal order, but we are relieved from the necessity of the law; that is, we have a chance of renewal and of entering the kingdom [of God], cleansing ourselves through constant participation in the resurrection of the Lord.
Alexei V. Nesteruk, Light from the East: Theology, Science, and the Eastern Orthodox Tradition, p.246
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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