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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > "The Openness of God's Will and Tom's Daughter's Pottery." | Forum Quick Jump
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Joe McCowan
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 39
| Posted 4/4/2008 1:05 PM (GMT -6) |   |
"I am-in-I Am" said...Joe: Theosis as defined by the Fathers, I agree with.Then we both agree on that score. 
The invocation of the Spirit (as we refer to it) is a prerequisite to any congregational service. I am a lay pastor at a trans-denominational church, comprised of folks from many Western traditions. We do partake in Communion every Sunday (which is unusual for most non-RC, EO congregations) and always call upon the Spirit prior to doing so, fully expecting to meet God. I do reject the RC doctrine of transubstantiation, and affirm that Communion is a mystery. I don't attempt to explain what happens to the bread and juice, I just know that it is truly a time of communion with God through the intercession of Jesus and the presence of the Spirit. Being a part of a non-traditional congregation that has for the most part rejected the traditions of their past, biblical liturgy is something we are trying to lay hold of. The epiklesis is something that you and I likely view from two completely different points of view.
Grace and Peace, Joe | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/4/2008 3:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Joe:
The epiklesis is something that you and I likely view from two completely different points of view
Probably so. I hold more to the EO view: the "mystery" of the Real Presence of Christ's Body and Blood, present through the transformation power of the Holy Spirit among the faithful.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/4/2008 7:49 PM (GMT -6) | | |
f a-1(y)
Breakdown:
Created human 'I'; agency of a human being <=> a
Self-willed negation of Created 'I' " egoism and recentering in God; poverty-of-spirit <=> a-1
The divine life of 'God's Anointed' (Christ); eternal, infinite, unified, self-giving love" <=> y
"I, not I, but Christ-the-Logos"
--"I-am-in-I-Am"
Make sense?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/4/2008 8:00:07 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/5/2008 7:02 AM (GMT -6) | |
B: Speaking for myself--if not for "Vince"--I'd argue that the sculptures of mine that actually rise to "art" ARE "personal manfestations" of me. (Further, something could be said about the significance of when the viewer is part of the synergy that makes art alive.)
Tom: Maybe I was wrong. Maybe there isn’t room in the EO for me after all! ;o)
ME: …when a man is happy, happy to the core and root of beatitude, he is no longer conscious of himself or anything else. He is conscious only of God…
Tom: You guys make it hard for a guy to pull out of a conversation.
In my view, this is a more dangerous thought than Apollinarianism, or Nestorianism, or Pelagianism, or maybe all three wrapped up together. I would counter this thought every chance I had.
OK, now I’m done! ;o)
Peace,
Tom
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2008 7:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
In my view, this is a more dangerous thought than Apollinarianism, or Nestorianism, or Pelagianism, or maybe all three wrapped up together. I would counter this thought every chance I had.
So, I guess you won't be a "mystic" then, huh? What do you think being "God-intoxicated" means?
Mystics get such a bad rap. I just got an anthology of Christian mysticism. The way these people were misunderstood. Damn... LOL! 
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2008 7:07 AM (GMT -6) | | You may as well give up on leaving this alone, Tom.
There's something bigger than either you OR me at work here.
Don't you feel it, my Mapmaking Turtle? 
Love,
the Exploring Scissortail. 
(Remember "Lewis and Clark"? )
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/5/2008 7:13:01 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2008 7:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Dude, it's really not as crazy as it sounds. Really. Even Shults talks about how "theosis" is often taken in the wrong way...
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2008 7:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Dallas Willard on the thought life of God's "Children of Light"
Renovation of the Heart, pp. 218-219 (All emphases mine)
Perhaps the first thing that comes to our attention when we get to know their inner life is what they think about, or what is on their mind. Simply stated, they think about God. He is never out of their mind. They love to dwell upon God and upon his greatness and loveliness, as brought to light in Jesus Christ. They adore him in nature, in history, in his Son and in his saints.
One could even say they are "God-intoxicated" (Acts 2:13; Ephesians 5:18 ), though no one has a stronger sense of reality and practicality than they do. Their mind is filled with biblical expressions of God's nature, his actions, and his plans for them in his world. They do not dwell upon evil. It is not a big thing in their thoughts. They are sure of its defeat, but they still deal with it appropriately in specific situations.
Because their mind is centered on God and oriented with reference to him, all other good things are also welcome there: "Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise," their mind ponders those things (Phillipians 4:8). They are positive, realistically so, based upon the nature of God as they understand it.
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Dallas Willard is PROTESTANT and EVANGELICAL.
Let's put the Eckhart quote here again...
"So I say that the aristocrat is one who derives his being, his life, and his happiness from God alone, with God and in God and not at all from his knowledge, perception, or love of God, or any such thing....This much is certain: when a man is happy, happy to the core and root of beatitude, he is no longer conscious of himself or anything else. He is conscious only of God...To be conscious of knowing God is to know about God and self. As I have just been explaining, the agent of the soul which enables one to see is one thing and the agent by which one knows that he sees is another."
Meister Eckhart
Now...
Does THIS sound like a man who was "God-intoxicated"?
Maybe? 
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/5/2008 7:20:27 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/5/2008 7:23 AM (GMT -6) | |
"I am-in-I Am" said...
"So I say that the aristocrat is one who derives his being, his life, and his happiness from God alone, with God and in God and not at all from his knowledge, perception, or love of God, or any such thing....This much is certain: when a man is happy, happy to the core and root of beatitude, he is no longer conscious of himself or anything else. He is conscious only of God...To be conscious of knowing God is to know about God and self. As I have just been explaining, the agent of the soul which enables one to see is one thing and the agent by which one knows that he sees is another."
Meister Eckhart I don't like the "no longer conscious of himself or anything else" part.
I think that an eminently practical observation is one that I heard or read this week, that: we know God's energies when WE are striving to do love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc, AND GOD is working those things in us too at the same time (synergy). Imagine two guys carrying a big box, and each is conscious of each other AND THEMSELVES.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2008 7:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Bruce:
I don't like the "no longer conscious of himself or anything else" part. I think that an eminently practical observation is one that I heard or read this week, that: we know God's energies when WE are striving to do love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc, AND GOD is working those things in us too at the same time (synergy). Imagine two guys carrying a big box, and each is conscious of each other AND THEMSELVES.
"This much is certain: when a man is happy, happy to the core and root of beatitude, he is no longer conscious of himself or anything else. He is conscious only of God...To be conscious of knowing God is to know about God and self."
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2008 7:33 AM (GMT -6) | | "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God" (Matt. 5:8). Made in God's image, man is a mirror of the divine. He knows God by knowing himself; entering within himself, he sees God reflected in the purity of his own heart. The doctrine of man's creation according to the image means that within each person--within his or her truest and innermost self, often termed the "deep heart" or "ground of the soul"--there is a point of direct meeting and union with the Uncreated. "The Kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:21).
The quest for the inward kingdom is one of the master themes found throughout the writings of the Fathers. "The greatest of all lessons", says St. Clement of Alexandria, "is to know oneself; for if someone know himself, he will know God; and if he knows God, he will become like God." St. Basil the Great writes: "When the intellect is no longer dissipated among external things or dispersed across the world through the senses, it returns to itself; and by means of itself it ascends to the thought of God." "He who know himself knows everything," says St. Issac the Syrian; elsewhere he writes:
Be at peace with your own soul; then heaven and earth will be at peace with you. Enter eagerly into the treasure house that is within you, and so you will see the things that are in heaven; for there is but one single entry to them both. The ladder that leads to the kingdom is hidden within your soul. Flee from sin, dive into yourself, and in your soul you will discover the stairs by which to ascend.
And to these passages we may add the testimony of a Western witness in our own day, Thomas Merton:
At the center of our being is a point of nothingness which is untouched by sin and by illusion, a point of pure truth, a point or spark which belongs entirely to God, which is never at our disposal, from which God disposes of our lives, which is inaccessible to the fantasies of our own mind or the brutalities of our own will. This little point of nothingness and of absolute poverty is the pure glory of God in us. It its so to speak his name written on us, as our poverty, as our indigence, and our dependence, as our sonship. It is like a pure diamond , blazing with the invisible light of heaven. It is in everybody, and if we could see it we would see these billions or points of light coming together in the face and blaze of a sun that would make all the darkness and cruelty of life vanish completely…The gate of heaven is everywhere.
Flee from sin. St. Issac insists; and these three words should be particularly noted. If we are to see God's face reflected within us, the mirror needs to be cleaned. Without repentance there can be no self-knowledge and no discovery of the inward kingdom. When I am told "Return into yourself: know yourself", it is necessary to inquire: Which "self" am I to discover? What is my true self? (Kallisto's emphasis on the "is" there) Psychoanalysis discloses to us one type of "self"; all too often, however, it guides us, not to the "ladder that leads to the kingdom,", but to the staircase that goes down to a dank and snake-infested cellar. "Know yourself" means "know yourself as God-sourced, God-rooted; know yourself in God". From the viewpoint of the Orthodox spiritual tradition it should be emphasized that we shall not discover this, our true self "according to the image", except through a death to our false and fallen self. "He who loses his life for my sake shall find it." (Matt. 16:25): only the one who sees his false self for what it is and rejects it, will be able to discern his true self, the self that God sees. Underlining this distinction between the false self and the true, St. Varsanuphius enjoins: "Forget yourself and know knowself."
Kallistos Ware. Orthodox Way. "The Inner Kingdom" pp.55-56
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2008 7:38 AM (GMT -6) | | | No wonder Maximus the Confessor was TORTURED by the Church. (Tongue cut out AND exiled!!)
Church as cannibalistic.
Who has believed the Lord's report indeed....
Sheesh...
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2008 7:44 AM (GMT -6) | | "In my view, this (God-intoxication where one is "only conscious of God", even in relationship to the self ) is a more dangerous thought than Apollinarianism, or Nestorianism, or Pelagianism, or maybe all three wrapped up together. I would counter this thought every chance I had."
WTF? 
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/5/2008 7:54 AM (GMT -6) | |
"I am-in-I Am" said...Bruce: I don't like the "no longer conscious of himself or anything else" part. I think that an eminently practical observation is one that I heard or read this week, that: we know God's energies when WE are striving to do love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc, AND GOD is working those things in us too at the same time (synergy). Imagine two guys carrying a big box, and each is conscious of each other AND THEMSELVES."This much is certain: when a man is happy, happy to the core and root of beatitude, he is no longer conscious of himself or anything else. He is conscious only of God...To be conscious of knowing God is to know about God and self."
Yes, it needs the last two words.
Risky language to write that way where the balance only comes at the end. Probably for drama. but you can see how this makes for hard conversation.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2008 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Bruce:
Someone worth paying attention to wrote that there is an unfortunate side to Vladimir Lossky's book getting titled "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church." There, "mystical" refers to "pertaining to the mysteries/sacraments of the Church. Not something exotic.
Tom wouldn't even dig the "mystical" THAT way. Why? Because the "mysteries/sacraments of the Church" include the EUCHARIST...which includes EPIKLESIS...which means, to EO, the Real Presence of Christ's Body and Blood in the faithful via "mystical" transformation by the Holy Spirit.
Tom's CURRENTLY a memorialist. Tom doesn't believe in the Real Presence right now.
See what I'm saying?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/5/2008 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | |
"I am-in-I Am" said...
"Know yourself" means "know yourself as God-sourced, God-rooted; know yourself in God".
Kallistos Ware. Orthodox Way. "The Inner Kingdom" pp.55-56 How obvious this is when you meet someone delusional.
How frightening when we realize that we've acted upon self-delusion ourselves.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2008 7:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Bruce:
How frightening when we realize that we've acted upon self-delusion ourselves.
It damn near makes somene want to kill themselves, the inner pain is so great. Seriously.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2008 8:08 AM (GMT -6) | | | What's been YOUR experience of the Church, Tupac Shakur?
RIP, homie. (More about him...)
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/5/2008 8:12:16 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/5/2008 8:20 AM (GMT -6) | |
"I am-in-I Am" said...
Tom's CURRENTLY a memorialist. Tom doesn't believe in the Real Presence right now.
See what I'm saying? Yes, I know the charts. But I'm going to take Tom off a chart and let him be a creative man!
Tom, you believe "where two or three of you are gathered in my name I am there." You don't believe that's just a symbol. YOu don't think its just a dramatic tablo or a human sculpture "recalling" a historical event. Right?
Dwayne, he agrees.
And Tom, you don't think this happens without our purposeful dedication -- its not there if we're not "meeting" (includes the far-reaching "mystery" of fellowship of the body sent out into the world...) but just pass each other in a crowd and not even see each other (though we can still love each other in the Spirit and not see each other). We gather in Christ's name, together, and Christ is there by his Spirit. That's epiklesis.
Epiklesis is a word that describes to similar things: the Son sends the Spirit--and that's epiklesis; and the Spirit makes Christ present to us--and that's epiklesis. Further, the concept of epiklesis applies to where Christ sends his Spirit to minister the Word of the Gospel to us. Preaching the word is a mystery. A sacrament.
Gathering together is our synergistically working with God to the end that God's Spirit makes Christ present. And Preaching the Word is a synergistic act where the preacher and the hearers receive the Spirit through the Word.
EVERYTHING ELSE IS MUDDLED UP BY HISTORICAL POLITICS.
But keep to what I've just said, just written, and I think the conversation will be better for it.
.
btw, "Do this in rememberance of me" can be understood to be "rememberance of ME" Prior to that time the eating and drinking had been in remembrance of the flight and rescue from Egypt. Now the memorial was re-aimed to be a memorial of Christ, who said "do this." But, by the Spirit, it is never "just" a memorial. It is realistic/symbolism and symbolic-realism. Beyond definitions, by the Spirit we eat the body and drink the blood, and WE in our gathering dwell with Christ who is among us, as he promised.
Lord have mercy.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2008 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Bruce:
Beyond definitions, by the Spirit we eat the body and drink the blood, and WE in our gathering dwell with Christ who is among us, as he promised.
Go further. It's understood that the REAL Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist is NOW a part of us...just like everything ELSE we eat. Our very BODIES are understood to flow with the DIVINE LIFE in Christ-the-Logos's REAL CORPOREAL PRESENCE that is been taken in by us.
(RELICS!!!!!)
Right?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/5/2008 8:35:45 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2008 8:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Bruce:
Because we are not gnostics we know that WE are body and soul. We know that salvation applies to both. And we know that Christ works though his Spirit to benifit both our body and soul.
Do we REALLY know that, Bruce? And REALLY apply that to how we see "Communion" in many evangelical settings? Or are a significant amount in these circles just unknowingly gnostic and heretical?
I know that was the case for me...before I began REPENTING of my former ways of thinking.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/5/2008 8:45:03 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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