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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > "The Openness of God's Will and Tom's Daughter's Pottery." | Forum Quick Jump
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/5/2008 8:45 AM (GMT -6) |   |
"I am-in-I Am" said...Bruce: Because we are not gnostics we know that WE are body and soul. We know that salvation applies to both. And we know that Christ works though his Spirit to benifit both our body and soul./1]
Do we REALLY know that, Bruce? And REALLY apply that to how we see "Communion" in many evangelical settings? Or are a significant amount in these circles just unknowingly gnostic and heretical?
I know that was the case for me.
I TEACH MY KIDS THAT RELIGION AND POLITICS MAKE MESSES WHEN MISSED.
I think that PASTORALLY this gets straight a lot.
But it's definitely NOT my job to bad-mouth or discriminate.
When I think of "evangelical circles I think badk into the early 1800s when my family left Lutheranism.
Sure, lots of messes are out there.
BUT, when we have the Scripture and meet together, and pray, and preach, I THINK GOD ACTS.
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Tom
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| Posted 4/5/2008 8:56 AM (GMT -6) | |
ME: This much is certain: when a man is happy, happy to the core and root of beatitude, he is no longer conscious of himself or anything else. He is conscious only of God...To be conscious of knowing God is to know about God and self.
Tom: D underlines “and self.” But what good does that do? What does it even MEAN when its preceded by “is no longer conscious of himself or anything else” mean? Make up your mind. Either I’m conscious “only of God” (and so “not conscious of myself or anything else”) or I’m conscious of things/persons other than God.
B: Tom, you believe "where two or three of you are gathered in my name I am there." You don't believe that's just a symbol. You don't think its’ just a dramatic tablo or a human sculpture "recalling" a historical event. Right?
Tom: Right. Christ is really present whenever believers meet, whether they celebrate communion or not. THEY are the Body of Christ. I just don’t think the bread and wine ever become anything other than bread or wine. Communion functions precisely as Christ said it would: “in remembrance of me.”
B: And Tom, you don't think this happens without our purposeful dedication -- its not there if we're not "meeting" (includes the far-reaching "mystery" of fellowship of the body sent out into the world...) but just pass each other in a crowd and not even see each other (though we can still love each other in the Spirit and not see each other). We gather in Christ's name, together, and Christ is there by his Spirit. That's epiklesis.
Tom: That’s what I believe. Two believers sitting next to each other on a plane flight and never talk to each other—no ‘church’ happens, no real presence of Christ in the church. Have them open their mouths and begin to share their faith and talk of Christ to encourage each other…and Christ is really present.
I just locate the presence in the ‘exchanged personal intimacy’ of fellow believers. When we dispose ourselves in love as brothers and sisters in Christ, THAT’S where Christ is, not in a some slice of bread. The “elements” are just points of contact that symbolize a “historical event” the virtue of which effects real community (and so real personhood) when our faith seizes the “meaning” of that historical event held out to us in the elements.
B: btw, "Do this in rememberance of me" can be understood to be "rememberance of ME."
Tom: OK.
B: Prior to that time the eating and drinking had been in remembrance of the flight and rescue from Egypt.
Tom: Exactly. And when THAT historical event was commemorated in faith by Jews, there was no mystical mediation of Moses.
B: Now the memorial was re-aimed to be a memorial of Christ…
Tom: Right.
B: But, by the Spirit, it is never "just" a memorial. It is realistic/symbolism and symbolic-realism. Beyond definitions, by the Spirit we eat the body and drink the blood, and WE in our gathering dwell with Christ who is among us, as he promised.
Tom: Who told you? Where in the Bible did you learn to conclude this additional “…but…”? Show me.
If a ‘memorial’ is what it’s SUPPOSED to be “as a memorial,” then being “just a memorial” is plenty powerful enough. “Just a memorial” can be the occasion of the real presence of Christ, can mediate healing, and can create community. But none of this “occurs” in the elements. It “occurs” in persons who perceive, exercise faith, remember and celebrate the past (the Cross), and appropriate its virtue by faith. The elements are just symbols that focus perception and faith. We need such encouragements. But nothing metaphysical is going on OUTSIDE the persons who perceive the cross and its power.
Tom
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One Love
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| Posted 4/5/2008 9:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I just locate the presence in the ‘exchanged personal intimacy’ of fellow believers. When we dispose ourselves in love as brothers and sisters in Christ, THAT’S where Christ is, not in a some slice of bread.
If we take Christ's "presence" in this way mainly, then what about Paul talking about uniting Christ's "members" to a harlot?
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/5/2008 10:02:49 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 4/5/2008 9:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom: I just locate the presence in the ‘exchanged personal intimacy’ of fellow believers. When we dispose ourselves in love as brothers and sisters in Christ, THAT’S where Christ is, not in some slice of bread.
D: If we take Christ's “presence” in this way mainly, then what about Paul talking about uniting Christ's “members” to a harlot? Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!
Tom: You seem to think, D, that the only way our ‘bodies’ are implicated in our ‘spiritual life’ (of the individual believer or of the entire Church) is if they literally, materially, become the risen body of Jesus. But why think that? I guess we disagree on what the phrase “body of Christ” is intended to communicate. To me this just means that we are how the presence, message, and power of Christ are mediated to a broken world. It doesn’t mean our bodies become one and the same body as the body of the risen Jesus. I take Paul’s point to entail the conviction that what I do with my body, how I dispose of myself through my body, is both an expression of who I think I am and a reflection upon the Church. So it’s my living out a particular identity that has adverse (or positive) consequences for the Church’s ability to mediate Christ’s message, presence, and way of life to the world. When I sleep with a prostitute as a believer I unite a way of life and a professed identity (the Christian) to a contrary way of life and identity. THAT is dangerous. But if it was just that my physical ‘body’ was materially one with Jesus’ risen body, wouldn’t it be a GOOD thing to introduce that to a prostitute? If not, why? Whatever that ‘why’ is will in the end not require us to think the believer’s physical body is materially the same body as Jesus’ risen body (made so my eating the bread and wine of communion).
Them’s me thoughts.
Tom
Post Edited (Tom) : 4/5/2008 9:33:58 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 4/5/2008 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | |
B: Tom, you believe "where two or three of you are gathered in my name I am there." You don't believe that's just a symbol. You don't think its’ just a dramatic tablo or a human sculpture "recalling" a historical event. Right?
Tom: Right. Christ is really present whenever believers meet, whether they celebrate communion or not. THEY are the Body of Christ. I just don’t think the bread and wine ever become anything other than bread or wine. Communion functions precisely as Christ said it would: “in remembrance of me.”
B: And Tom, you don't think this happens without our purposeful dedication -- its not there if we're not "meeting" (includes the far-reaching "mystery" of fellowship of the body sent out into the world...) but just pass each other in a crowd and not even see each other (though we can still love each other in the Spirit and not see each other). We gather in Christ's name, together, and Christ is there by his Spirit. That's epiklesis.
Tom: That’s what I believe. Two believers sitting next to each other on a plane flight and never talk to each other—no ‘church’ happens, no real presence of Christ in the church. Have them open their mouths and begin to share their faith and talk of Christ to encourage each other…and Christ is really present.
Response: Yes to much. But also we notice that Church is more than just a group of Christians, it is a calling. And, communion is more than just the combination of food and facts.
Tom, cont.: I just locate the presence in the ‘exchanged personal intimacy’ of fellow believers. When we dispose ourselves in love as brothers and sisters in Christ, THAT’S where Christ is, not in a some slice of bread. The “elements” are just points of contact that symbolize a “historical event” the virtue of which effects real community (and so real personhood) when our faith seizes the “meaning” of that historical event held out to us in the elements.
Response: Again, "yes" to much, as much written above is very important.
But we note that one can really screw up one's life by mis-taking communion. The reason for that is connected--I think--in something behind the reason God chose a meal to be the real-symbol of our fellowship with him (chosen for both Passover and Eucharist). "We are what we eat." And...so...the Reformed say:
Minister: Lord, our God, send your Holy Spirit so that this bread and cup may be for us the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. May we and all your saints be united with Christ and remain faithful in hope and love. Gather your whole church, O Lord, into the glory of your kingdom.
B: btw, "Do this in rememberance of me" can be understood to be "rememberance of ME."
Tom: OK.
B: Prior to that time the eating and drinking had been in remembrance of the flight and rescue from Egypt.
Tom: Exactly. And when THAT historical event was commemorated in faith by Jews, there was no mystical mediation of Moses.
Response: I missed your meaning.
B: Now the memorial was re-aimed to be a memorial of Christ…
Tom: Right.
B: But, by the Spirit, it is never "just" a memorial. It is realistic/symbolism and symbolic-realism. Beyond definitions, by the Spirit we eat the body and drink the blood, and WE in our gathering dwell with Christ who is among us, as he promised.
Tom: Who told you? Where in the Bible did you learn to conclude this additional “…but…”? Show me.
Response: That's a bit easy. Of course you can have your favotie reflutal--I can't stop you. But your question asks where I learned in the Bible.
"This is my body...this is my blood."
"Take...eat."
Hopko writes:
At the supper Christ took the bread and the wine and ordered his disciples to eat and drink it as his own Body and Blood. This action thus became the center of the Christian life, the experience of the presence of the Risen Christ in the midst of his People (see Mt 26; Mk 14; Lk 22; Jn 6 and 13; Acts 2:41-47; 1 Cor 10-11).
Hopko continues:
The Orthodox Church uses such expressions because in Orthodoxy what is real is not opposed to what is symbolical or mystical or spiritual. On the contrary! In the Orthodox view, all of reality -- the world and man himself -- is real to the extent that it is symbolical and mystical, to the extent that reality itself must reveal and manifest God to us. Thus, the eucharist in the Orthodox Church is understood to be the genuine Body and Blood of Christ precisely because bread and wine are the mysteries and symbols of God's true and genuine presence and manifestation to us in Christ. Thus, by eating and drinking the bread and wine which are mystically consecrated by the Holy Spirit, we have genuine communion with God through Christ who is himself "the bread of life" (Jn 6:34, 41).
I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh (Jn 6:51).
Thus, the bread of the eucharist is Christ's flesh, and Christ's flesh is the eucharistic bread. The two are brought together into one. The word "symbolical" in Orthodox terminology means exactly this: "to bring together into one."
Thus we read the words of the Apostle Paul:
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is broken for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death, until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread and drinks the cup in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord (1 Cor 11:23-26).
The mystery of the holy eucharist defies analysis and explanation in purely rational and logical terms. For the eucharist -- and Christ himself -- is indeed a mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven which, as Jesus has told us, is "not of this world." The eucharist -- because it belongs to God's Kingdom -- is truly free from the earth-born "logic" of fallen humanity.
Tom: If a ‘memorial’ is what it’s SUPPOSED to be “as a memorial,” then being “just a memorial” is plenty powerful enough. “Just a memorial” can be the occasion of the real presence of Christ, can mediate healing, and can create community. But none of this “occurs” in the elements. It “occurs” in persons who perceive, exercise faith, remember and celebrate the past (the Cross), and appropriate its virtue by faith. The elements are just symbols that focus perception and faith. We need such encouragements. But nothing metaphysical is going on OUTSIDE the persons who perceive the cross and its power.
Response: I'm going to take this wonderful paragraph in three responses, from last to first. Lastly, no notions of "accidents" like RC. For EO says that the bread continues to be bread -- and indeed becomes more-so "bread" than it was before......it becomes what bread is intended for: life. Then...a first response to something at the beginning, that you wrote beautifully "the real presence of Christ, can mediate healing, and can create community": That's marvelous. It contains more than just cold historical facts. And you said it well in the middle: "It “occurs” in persons who perceive, exercise faith."
Remembrance in liturgy is called "anemnesis." Remember the theif who said "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Were that merely symbolic one would see Christ in glory and merely thinking about that guy. But, "remembrance" is faith, and is mediation -- as you write above.
In communion we join Christ in remembering each other! And the symbol of that is the bread and wine.
I forgot the last thing.
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One Love
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| Posted 4/5/2008 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | | Bruce,
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/5/2008 11:13 AM (GMT -6) | | "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread and drinks the cup in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord."
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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| Posted 4/5/2008 11:15 AM (GMT -6) | | THEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESIS
THEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESIS
THEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESIS
THEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESIS
THEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESISTHEOSISEPIKLESIS
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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| Posted 4/5/2008 11:24 AM (GMT -6) | | "It is the job of the Church to make relics."
Right, B?
Relics Part 4: Persons, Essence and Energies
Wednesday, January 23, 2008
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 4/5/2008 11:25 AM (GMT -6) | | | Is Christ fully God? .... Yes.
Is Christ truly human? ..... Yes
Is the bread and wine truly the body and blood of Christ? ..... Yes
Does the bread and wine truly remain bread and wine? ..... Yes.
How does that happen? .... We don't know.
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One Love
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| Posted 4/5/2008 11:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Dispositional ontology MAY help as a 'lens' through which to view the Mystery of Christ.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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| Posted 4/5/2008 11:32 AM (GMT -6) | | We can't know a lot..but I think we know something for certain...
As love, God wants to be as "one" with humanity as possible.
Surely, we could ALL agree with that! 
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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| Posted 4/6/2008 12:34 AM (GMT -6) | | It's all about love.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Tom
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| Posted 4/6/2008 12:35 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 4/6/2008 7:58 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Zack, I did not merely post one single verse.
The word "symbolical" in Orthodox terminology means exactly this: "to bring together into one." Thus, the bread of the eucharist is Christ's flesh, and Christ's flesh is the eucharistic bread. The two are brought together into one.
Here.
I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh (Jn 6:51).
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is broken for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death, until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread and drinks the cup in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord (1 Cor 11:23-26).
(o)Post Edited (plato's_playdough) : 4/6/2008 8:06:34 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 4/6/2008 8:41 AM (GMT -6) | | So..."eat" and "drink" admit NO metaphorcial meanings/uses at all? It's impossible to employ them metaphorically?
So if I "drink deep" at the springs of salvation I'm literally drinking some liquid? If I "drink deep" from Rationalism I'm drinking some literal, material liquid that IS 'rationalism'? If I "hunger and thirst" for righteousness I'm only "filled" by literally eating or drinking something?
Let's be consistent then. So people who (like my father) have no esophagus but take in all their nutrients directly from an IV pump into their stomachs and so CAN'T drink or eat anything and can't 'eat' or 'drink' Christ's flesh LITERALLY are not transformed like others who DO have access to the body and blood of Jesus. So whatever my Dad believes, however sincere his faith, however earnestly he disposes himself in love toward others, however truly he perceives God in the world relationally, he's what? He's less a REAL "part" of the BODY of Christ.
Yeah, that works.
Jesus: I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh (Jn 6:51).
Tom: So if "eats this bread" = "celebrates communion in Orthodox fashion" (or let's just say "celebrates communion"), then what of those who do NOT celebrate communion (for whatever reason)? They don't get to live forever becaues, per your argument, eternal life is mediated THROUGH the physical elements.
And I'M a heretic?  Tom
Post Edited (Tom) : 4/6/2008 8:54:32 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 4/6/2008 11:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Question:
Does epicletic faith (where humans participate in the "mind", "spirit", and "body/blood" of Christ) ABSOLUTELY REQUIRE the ingesting of mystically transformed bread and wine to occur among the faithful?
Answer I've been getting? No.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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| Posted 4/7/2008 12:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Bruce:
Dwayne, please pick this apart, or change it as you see fit:
God interacts synergistically with persons who themselves are creative and ecstatic by nature. Nothing ever changes that nature. Sin can hamper it. Redemption makes nature ache like an athlete after a workout. Interacting with God synergistically can be acompanied by trials. But nothing in the nature nor the goal of our life in Christ changes God's original design for us.
So..our creativity is immutable (according to essence), and it is our nature to grow, perfect, and create eternally (nature).
Please respond.
Here goes...
God IS the "event-existence" of Uncreated Creative, Relational Being. (God is love) Human beings are created in God's Image, meaning they are creative and relational by nature. That image is marred and "bound" by sin...as the image is separated from it's Source, God. God working in, with, and through us "little images" (as we, in poverty-of-spirit, perichoretically "indwell" God's Holy Spirit) brings into fulness what was always our created nature and "telos." In this state, human beings are not only in the image of God...but also in God's likeness as they are "indwelled" by Christ-the-Logos, present moment-by-present moment, via the Holy Spirit.
By nature, human beings have a SURPASSIBLE, LIMITED relational perspective that can experience eternal GROWTH and DISCOVERY in infinite "Works of Love" in our everyday human lives...though the creativity and love we "hypostasize" in our particular non-divine spiritual existences are actually expressions of the eternal divine life of God the Father through Christ-the-Logos in the power of the Holy Spirit.
How's that?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/7/2008 12:15:14 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 4/7/2008 12:30 PM (GMT -6) | |
"I am-in-I Am" said...Bruce: Dwayne, please pick this apart, or change it as you see fit:
God interacts synergistically with persons who themselves are creative and ecstatic by nature. Nothing ever changes that nature. Sin can hamper it. Redemption makes nature ache like an athlete after a workout. Interacting with God synergistically can be acompanied by trials. But nothing in the nature nor the goal of our life in Christ changes God's original design for us.
So..our creativity is immutable (according to essence), and it is our nature to grow, perfect, and create eternally (nature).
Please respond.Here goes... God IS the "event-existence" of Uncreated Creative, Relational Being. (God is love) Human beings are created in God's Image, meaning they are creative and relational by nature. That image is marred and "bound" by sin...as the image is separated from it's Source, God. God working in, with, and through us "little images" (as we, in poverty-of-spirit, perichoretically "indwell" God's Holy Spirit) brings into fulness what was always our created nature and "telos." In this state, human beings are not only in the image of God...but also in God's likeness as they are "indwelled" by Christ-the-Logos, present moment-by-present moment, via the Holy Spirit.
By nature, human beings have a SURPASSIBLE, LIMITED relational perspective that can experience eternal GROWTH and DISCOVERY in infinite "Works of Love" in our everyday human lives...though the creativity and love we "hypostasize" in our particular non-divine spiritual existences are actually expressions of the eternal divine life of God the Father through Christ-the-Logos in the power of the Holy Spirit.
How's that?
Thanks.
Let's follow up on that...
I could see how two different people could interpret "expressions" in two different ways. Are either of these examples closer to what you meant by that word? First, an echo off of a canyon wall is an expression of a sound, and similarly a mirror reflects light. Second, a music conductor leads an orchestra in a piece by Bach, not merely following the score but "giving expression" to what she feels Back was meaning.
Do you favor one, the other, both, or neither.
Speak freely.
B.
(o) Post Edited (plato's_playdough) : 4/7/2008 12:35:53 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 4/7/2008 12:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Hmmmm...let me answer this way.
It would be like a Spouse A that has spent so much time with Spouse B, knowing them intimately and being known intimately, that...in Spouse B's OWN RELATING to Spouse A...Spouse A would see THEIR characteristics, traits, and beliefs coming from Spouse B...those that they have internalized and configured into Spouse B's self-understanding and modes of self-expression. Whenever or wherever Spouse B would express themselves to others, they would ALSO expressing Spouse A to those others, even if those others have never interacted with Spouse A personally.
Let Spouse A = "God's Spirit"
Let Spouse B = "human spirit"
Does this make sense?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/7/2008 12:58:45 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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