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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > "The Openness of God's Will and Tom's Daughter's Pottery." | Forum Quick Jump
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 4/7/2008 1:10 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 4/7/2008 7:59 PM (GMT -6) | | | Thank YOU, Bruce. Excellent clarifying questions!
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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| Posted 4/8/2008 6:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Bruce:
what does “event-existence” mean?
&: Where does it come from; and why did you use it?
The exact term comes from Leron Shults' Theological Anthropology book..but the concept is seen in both James Loder's work and in Process categories (used by Greg in Trinity and Process). I used it because, in my opinion, it speaks better to the process/relational categories (rather than substantive) we are using.
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Bruce:
When I read the below I'm more likely to think you are saying something I already know than actually follow you step-by-step:
"perichoretically 'indwell' God's Holy Spirit)…"
Guide me through that step by step, and explain where you think I might feel it called for.
Thanks.
Tell me what you think I mean and I'll go from there. That would be easier for me.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 4/8/2008 6:23 PM (GMT -6) | |
I guess you answered my second and third questions: Schultz and Loder... (I've got to say that the second sentence did not spark any recongnition on my part. I didn't understand it.)
But I also asked "what does it mean, and you did not answer that. So...WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
Thanks.
"I am-in-I Am" said...Bruce: what does “event-existence” mean?
&: Where does it come from; and why did you use it?The exact term comes from Leron Shults' Theological Anthropology book..but the concept is seen in both James Loder's work and in Process categories (used by Greg in Trinity and Process). I used it because, in my opinion, it speaks better to the process/relational categories (rather than substantive) we are using. ****************************** Bruce: When I read the below I'm more likely to think you are saying something I already know than actually follow you step-by-step:
"perichoretically 'indwell' God's Holy Spirit)…"
Guide me through that step by step, and explain where you think I might feel it called for.
Thanks.Tell me what you think I mean and I'll go from there. That would be easier for me.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 4/9/2008 4:27 PM (GMT -6) | |
"I am-in-I Am" said...
******************************
Bruce:
When I read the below I'm more likely to think you are saying something I already know than actually follow you step-by-step:
"perichoretically 'indwell' God's Holy Spirit)…"
Guide me through that step by step, and explain where you think I might feel it called for.
Thanks.
Tell me what you think I mean and I'll go from there. That would be easier for me.
No, I want to see what you say.
I'll just mention that perichoresis/coinherence gets used both for relationships between God and man and between various members of the trinity. (I don't completely like the adjective 'between' here.)
I'd suggest going to Meyendorff for your answer.
I know I get confused some times.
So I'd like to see you lay this out.
Please, D.
Thanks.
- B
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One Love
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| Posted 4/9/2008 6:30 PM (GMT -6) | | What I mean:
The created, finite human spirit never becomes the Uncreated, Infinite Holy Spirit, but it is completely permeated at all points by the omnipresent Holy Spirit and His operations. This perichoresis is ASSYMETRICAL in effect, moving from the Higher (divinity, Holy Spirit) to the Lower (humanity, human spirit). The ontological difference between the divinity and humanity remains. The Lower embodies and expresses the Higher, but it does not "permeate" the Higher like the Higher does the Lower. Rather, the Lower completely RESTS in the permeation enacted by the Higher...and, in so doing, "indwells" the Higher without becoming It. (This is like unto SK's idea of someone "resting transparently in the Power which creates them." ) This is DISTINCT from the perichoresis that goes on with the divine Persons of the Trinity, where the divine Persons, having the same nature, permeate each other perfectly.
Does this help?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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| Posted 4/9/2008 8:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Oops. Forgot this.
Bruce:
But I also asked "what does it mean, and you did not answer that. So...WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
It meaning "event-existence"
Boiling it down as I understand it. The statement represents the belief that, ultimately, to exist IS to relate...which is "event", not some "thing". So, there is no static, substantialist stance on what it means to "be." Being as event of relationship, I suppose...
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 4/9/2008 8:41 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/9/2008 8:42 PM (GMT -6) | | No problem, bro.
Mad love, B.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Tom
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| Posted 4/10/2008 1:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Zizy agrees that human beings, fulfilled in Christ, are each “free, unique, and unrepeatable.”
Can you tell me wherein you think these attributes lie? That is, who exercises the ‘freedom’ in question? In what sense are we to understand ‘unique’ and ‘unrepeatable’? Just what is it that’s unique and unrepeatable about a human being anyhow? You’ve got two fundamental categories of explanation—person and nature. Under which of these two do you locate the freedom, uniqueness, and unrepeatable character of human beings?
T
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One Love
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| Posted 4/10/2008 6:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Reading Assignment!
Being As Communion, Zizy
Pages 27-65, Chapter 1: Personhood and Being. Pages 46-49 deal more specifically with your question on Zizy's "concrete, unique, and unrepeatable" thing, Tom...
BUT...
It's REALLY IMPORTANT, Tom, for you to read ALL of this. I wouldn't ask you to, if it weren't. Take your time.
I will give SOME quotes...all emphases mine...
1) First FULL paragraph on p. 56.
"This adoption of man by God, the identification of his hypostasis with the hypostasis of the Son of God, is the essence of baptism."
Please look at Note #50 at the bottom of the page associated with that quote.
2) First FULL paragraph on p. 58.
"Thus the Church becomes Christ Himself in human existence, but also every member of the Church becomes Christ and Church."
Please look at the referencing notes on the same page.
3) Read from Page 62 to the end. There's a great note #66 that I will actually take the time to type out. Why? Because it DIRECTLY LINKS to the NECESSITY of the ascetical life to true Christian being. It puts hesychasm, mysticism, and epiklesis into perspective. All emphases mine...
The meaning of asceticism consists in the fact that the less one makes one's hypostasis rely on nature, on the substance, the more one is hypostasized as a person. In this way, asceticism does not deny "nature" but frees it from the ontological necessity of the biological hypostasis; it enables it to "be" in an authentic manner. It is superfluous to stress that this does not suffice to bring about the transcendence of the biological hypostasis if nature is not "hypostasized" simultaneously in the eucharistic community. Other non-Christian soteriological systems also exhibit asceticism as a transcendence of the biological hypostasis. But only the Church offers the positive side of this transcendence in the way I have just described with reference to the eucharist. (From the point of view of the historical phenomenology of religions it must some day be understood that only the eucharist in its correct sense is the specific differentiating factor of Christianity.) Without the ascetic dimension, the person is inconceivable. But in the end the context of the manifestation of the person is not the monastery: it is the eucharist.
I hope that this informs us about JUST HOW IMPORTANT it is to understand the EPICLETIC reality of the Eucharist.
For all the memorialists out there... 
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/10/2008 7:15:53 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2008 6:57 AM (GMT -6) | | | I said THIS in a 3/20/2008 quote. REPOSTING!
"When multiple human beings CHOOSE to only identify ourselves as a "Spirit-born(e) Child of God's Love" (Abba, Father), then you have multiple human beings participating in ONE identity...which is also the eternal identity of God the Son. Christ is our BROTHER! Again, we are NOT the Archetype and "eternal Son", only Christ Jesus is. So, the necessary distinction is there for that. "
----------------------------------------
Ahhhhh...lemme just type that Note #50 from Zizy...
The structure of the sacrament of baptism was identified at the outset with the structure of the evangelical narrative of the baptism of Jesus. The words, "this is my beloved [or only-begotten] Son in whom I am well pleased," uttered by the Father with reference to the Son of the Trinity in the presence of the Spirit, are pronounced at baptism with reference to the person being baptized, a fact which makes Paul summarize the sense of baptism with the phrase, "Spirit of adoption, in which we cry Abba, Father" (Rom. 8:15).
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/10/2008 10:18 AM (GMT -6) | | I'll try again...
Zizy agrees that human beings, fulfilled in Christ, are each “free, unique, and unrepeatable.”
Can you tell me wherein you think these attributes lie? That is, who exercises the ‘freedom’ in question? In what sense are we to understand ‘unique’ and ‘unrepeatable’? Just what is it that’s unique and unrepeatable about a human being anyhow? You’ve got two fundamental categories of explanation—person and nature. Under which of these two do you locate the freedom, uniqueness, and unrepeatable character of human beings?
T
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One Love
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| Posted 4/10/2008 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Hear what you hear outta this, Tom...
Individual human hypostases (created with the potential to be free, unique, unrepeatable persons) can ACTUALIZE and FULFILL that potential of personhood in human nature ONLY when "in Christ" by power of the Holy Spirit such that they are in the LIKENESS of God the Father: THE free, unique, and unrepeatable Person from whom the Triune Godhead springs.
I feel you're "who" question may be too simplistic, honestly.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2008 11:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Maybe this will help you...I don't know...
Christ's Uncreated "Who-ness", via the Holy Spirit, works with, in, by, and through the created human spirit to bring it's self-relational nature to it's fulfilled ability: bearing it's own true "whoness." From image to likeness. This is being adopted into sonship being "sons-in-the-Son." Unlike all other human beings to exist, Christ-the-Logos, being the Archetype of Humanity and Eternal Son, had his "whoness" from conception as the Incarnate Word.
Enanthropeosis---Theosis.
God became human...so that humanity could become god.
Does this make sense?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/10/2008 11:53:19 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2008 11:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Well, if I never do this PhD, I can always do something with my Arabic like work for Homeland Security or the FBI or some other government institution that uses deadly force. I wonder if Greg will still wanna hang with me on his back porch!
Bring him some "special" cigars...and he probably won't care. 
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Tom
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| Posted 4/10/2008 11:59 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/10/2008 3:53 PM (GMT -6) | |
"I am-in-I Am" said...
...
Individual human hypostases (created with the potential to be free, unique, unrepeatable persons) can ACTUALIZE and FULFILL that potential of personhood in human nature ONLY when "in Christ" by power of the Holy Spirit such that they are in the LIKENESS of God the Father: THE free, unique, and unrepeatable Person from whom the Triune Godhead springs. Way too long a sentence, with too many parts. (German would allow that, but its risky in English.)
I can see something in it I'd agree to, and tend to see that; but I could not guarantee that fact (that that's what you are saying) to Tom.
We've all had our "charismatic" stints--mine in the 70's, so we know the phrase "they Holy Spirit is a gentleman." So...
The END of your sentence probably was saying just that release from the bondage of sin sets us free to BOTH be what God made us to be AND become what we have the potentiality for becoming. But if Tom were to see an ""un-gentlemanly" determinism in what you said I would not blame him....as long and complicated as that sentence was.
Just trying to help== but you can shoot the messenger if you want. lol
(o) Post Edited (plato's_playdough) : 4/10/2008 10:14:05 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2008 6:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Whatever you think, B.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/10/2008 10:22 PM (GMT -6) | |
"I am-in-I Am" said...Whatever you think, B.
NO. I JUST WANT TO INVITE YOU TO BREAK THAT DOWN SOME. I'm not trying to be picky. (I'm not.) But you and Tom have such ruts for how you read each other, that while I'm content to see you disagree.....I'm NOT interested in seeing you both second-guess what the other has posted.
"I am-in-I Am" said...
...
Individual human hypostases (created with the potential to be free, unique, unrepeatable persons) can ACTUALIZE and FULFILL that potential of personhood in human nature ONLY when "in Christ" by power of the Holy Spirit such that they are in the LIKENESS of God the Father: THE free, unique, and unrepeatable Person from whom the Triune Godhead springs.
Way too long a sentence, with too many parts.
So... PLEASE, make a few sentences shorter -- don't do it all over.
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