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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 4/7/2008 9:21 PM (GMT -6)

This is the last of a series of posts on the topic.

http://gregboyd.blogspot.com/2008/04/critique-of-ellers-thesis.html

One Love
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Total Posts : 13888

Posted 4/7/2008 9:35 PM (GMT -6)

Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.

Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God."

When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

about three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. ⁸Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?"
"Yes," she said, "that is the price."

Peter said to her, "How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord (JESUS)? Listen! The feet of those who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."

At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"

Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.

feelinahole
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Total Posts : 754

Posted 4/7/2008 9:38 PM (GMT -6)

I am impressed by what I have read so far, but given Boyd's sentimental view of love, I doubt his "another" proposal will be anything of substance. Rather than read Boyd, I recommend a great book on the subject, Show Them No Mercy, published by Zondervan. It gives four seperate views on the subject.
For me, the issue is simple: unless Christians are going to completely nullify the Old Testament we must realize that God uses violence at times to further his own aims (be it judgment or something else) and therefore violence is justified in certain instances. But that doesn't play well with those who believe in a soft, sentimental view of God and love, those who believe that God only acts in a passive way and never condone violence. When Boyd makes a statement such as "how can a God of love," he should concerned more with his own small view of God rather than the question he is actually asking...

One Love
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Posted 4/7/2008 9:40 PM (GMT -6)

Greg:
What intensifies this problem even more is that it's not like Psalms 137 is an isolated case of celebrated violence in the Old Testament. It's found all over the place! The worst episodes happened when the Israelites enter the promised land. As they approached certain cities, the Israelites were commanded -- by God -- to slaughter men, women, children and even the animals! Yahweh is aiming at complete genocide of the Canaanite people. Could anything be more antithetical to what we learn about God in Jesus Christ? Honestly (we've got to be honest here, even if it hurts) doesn't this depiction of God look more like the God of Osama Bin Laden than the Father of Jesus Christ?

The Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ killed Ananias and Sapphira...and caused GREAT FEAR to occur to the CHURCH, Christ's Body.

What is Greg talking about?

Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"

Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/7/2008 9:41:42 PM (GMT-5)

feelinahole
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Total Posts : 754

Posted 4/7/2008 10:06 PM (GMT -6)

I agree. What is Boyd talking about, except HIS view of who Jesus Christ is, as if Jesus would NEVER stoop so low to pronounce judgment on anyone. To take the Old Testament seriously, Boyd really needs to expland his view of who God is, who the Bible actually depicts God as being, rather than who he wants God to be. This is why I say that his view of God and love is chiefly sentimental and soft. For God's love to be truly love it must judge evil. And if your view of God is Trinitarian than Jesus was pretty in on that decision, which means how the Old Testament depicts God is how the Old Testament depicts Jesus.

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 4/7/2008 10:36 PM (GMT -6)

D., remember what Hopko said when he refered to Job?

(o)

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 4/8/2008 12:36 AM (GMT -6)

Yeah, maybe Greg should follow this series with a series on New Testament violence at the hands of Apostles! Yeeeow.

Tom

feelinahole
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Total Posts : 754

Posted 4/8/2008 5:57 AM (GMT -6)

selective vision

One Love
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Total Posts : 13888

Posted 4/8/2008 6:27 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
Yeah, maybe Greg should follow this series with a series on New Testament violence at the hands of Apostles! Yeeeow.

Moses said to the LORD, "Pardon your servant, Lord. I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue."

The LORD said to him, "Who gave human beings their mouths? Who makes them deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the LORD? Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say."

-----------------------------------------------------------

They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit (of Christ), looked straight at Elymas and said, "You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind for a time, not even able to see the light of the sun."

Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.

Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"

Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/8/2008 6:42:57 AM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 4/8/2008 6:29 AM (GMT -6)

Greg better tighten up on this one.

Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"

Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/8/2008 6:34:29 AM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 4/8/2008 6:32 AM (GMT -6)

Bruce:
D., remember what Hopko said when he refered to Job?

Sho you right, B! I loved Hopko's description of theosis at the end. It really solidified some things for me.

Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"

One Love
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Total Posts : 13888

Posted 4/8/2008 6:46 AM (GMT -6)

Greg:
Honestly (we've got to be honest here, even if it hurts) doesn't this depiction of God look more like the God of Osama Bin Laden than the Father of Jesus Christ?

Marcionism

"Marcionists believed that the wrathful Hebrew God was a separate and lower entity than the all-forgiving God of the New Testament."

Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"

One Love
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Posted 4/8/2008 7:28 AM (GMT -6)

Wait a sec.

It MUST be possible to love someone infinitely and terminate their earthly existence at the same time.

The Holy Spirit (who IS Love) did it!

Follow me on this real quick...

(I'm not checking this for validity or anything. Just spoutin' this. Logicians can fix it up!

)

1) God the Holy Spirit is immutable, unconditional love.

2) God the Holy Spirit has "terminated" human beings' earthly lives, according to Scripture.

soo...

3) Exercising the ability to "teminate" human beings' earthly lives is commensurate with the exercise of immutable, unconditional love, as seen by the actions of God the Holy Spirit.

Does this make sense?

Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"

One Love
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Total Posts : 13888

Posted 4/8/2008 7:39 AM (GMT -6)

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. "Get out of here, baldy!" they said. "Get out of here, baldy!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

---------------------------------------

Now the LORD had said to Moses, "I will bring one more plague on Pharaoh and on Egypt. After that, he will let you go from here, and when he does, he will drive you out completely. Tell the people that men and women alike are to ask their neighbors for articles of silver and gold." (The LORD made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and Moses himself was highly regarded in Egypt by Pharaoh's officials and by the people.)

So Moses said, "This is what the LORD says: 'about midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the female slave, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again. But among the Israelites not a dog will bark at any person or animal.' Then you will know that the LORD makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel. All these officials of yours will come to me, bowing down before me and saying, 'Go, you and all the people who follow you!' After that I will leave." Then Moses, hot with anger, left Pharaoh.

The LORD had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you—so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

...

At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.

-----------------------

Innocent babies being killed by God...

and Christ-the-Logos was RIGHT THERE when ALL THIS HAPPENED...holding it all in existence!

What is Greg talking about??

Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"

Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/8/2008 7:43:20 AM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 4/8/2008 7:47 AM (GMT -6)

God does EVERYTHING by His Word (Christ) and His Spirit, right?

Even the killing of innocent Egyptian babies.

Then what is Greg talking about?

Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"

One Love
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Total Posts : 13888

Posted 4/8/2008 7:50 AM (GMT -6)

Sorry...just one more...

David again brought together all the able young men of Israel—thirty thousand. He and all his men went to Baalah in Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the Name, the name of the LORD Almighty, who is enthroned between the cherubim on the ark. They set the ark of God on a new cart and brought it from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, were guiding the new cart with the ark of God on it, and Ahio was walking in front of it. David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with castanets, harps, lyres, timbrels, sistrums and cymbals.

When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. The LORD's anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.

Then David was angry because the LORD's wrath had broken out against Uzzah, and to this day that place is called Perez Uzzah.

Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"

One Love
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Posted 4/8/2008 7:57 AM (GMT -6)

Jesus CURSING the living fig tree...and it actually dying as a result.

Now isn't THAT just so "ecologically friendly"...heh...

Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"

might-be-don
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Total Posts : 830

Posted 4/8/2008 11:31 AM (GMT -6)

So the use of violence should be the norm for our lives? God did it, the Apostles did it , so I should be violent!

no peace, don

^{The world's perfect, wouldn't change a thing.}

might-be-don
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Total Posts : 830

Posted 4/8/2008 11:33 AM (GMT -6)

By the way, I think it's bold of Greg to work through these issues in a public forum.

^{The world's perfect, wouldn't change a thing.}

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 4/8/2008 11:44 AM (GMT -6)

Well, if you can speak and have people drop dead or have trees die at your command, go for it. ;o)

But that's part of the issue. The sort of violence that DOES occur in the NT is the sort that only occurs if God shows up to follow through with a display of the Spirit's power. It's never the violence of swords, or beating someone up, etc., the kind of violence that WE can do WITHOUT God. Maybe that's the dividing point. If Peter was wrong, Ananias would not have died. If Paul was acting on his own, the sorcerer would not have lost his site. Same with Jesus and the fig tree. There's a supernatural element to NT violence that REQUIRES a divine appointment. And some of that is in the OT too. But there's a lot of your run of the mill violence in God's name in the OT too.

Tom

Post Edited (Tom) : 4/8/2008 11:49:35 AM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 4/8/2008 11:48 AM (GMT -6)

I think D is right though. Infinite love CAN mean the termination of a person's earthly existence. The point is, can we ever be in a place to judge when that's the most appropriate thing to do? Greg will say no. I'll agree with Greg but qualify it by adding that while it's true that we can never devise a law, or standard of measurment accross the board that decides cases of religious capital punishment for us (as some Reformers believed we could), we can be LED BY THE SPIRIT (as were Peter, Paul, and Jesus), in which case the proof is in the speaking. Command a tree to die. If you've heard from God it'll die. If not, you missed it. That leaves the EXECUTION of the order/matter in God's hands, even though we share in it. But what about the sort of violence that doesn't require God to show up at all?

THAT I think is what Greg is most concerend about.

Tom

BBBCanada
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Total Posts : 2763

Posted 4/8/2008 11:55 AM (GMT -6)

52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

I wonder what would have happened, say, to the WHOLE PLAN of salvation had Jesus carried through with this? But what if Jesus would have done this? Would they have been there to dance and have a party?

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

One Love
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Total Posts : 13888

Posted 4/8/2008 1:41 PM (GMT -6)

Tom:
That leaves the EXECUTION of the order/matter in God's hands, even though we share in it. But what about the sort of violence that doesn't require God to show up at all?

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

The Apostle Paul to the Church at Rome

Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"

Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/8/2008 1:43:25 PM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 4/8/2008 2:43 PM (GMT -6)

Here's something I know for sure: Greg's theology, when taken consistently, doesn't allow him to believe that any Spirit-filled, Kingdom-living Christian who "loves their enemies" like Jesus...can be called by God into military or police service. Why? Because both aspects of civil service use the "sword"...and to Greg, Jesus didn't use the sword! I've talked to Greg enough on this subject to know that, when his thought is pushed consistently, he HAS to say that God wouldn't call Spirit-filled, "enemy loving", Kingdom people to be either police officers or military personnel BECAUSE it would be in their JOB DESCRIPTIONS to have the capacity to use deadly force at someone's order.

And my question has remained the same all this time, since before "Myth of a Christian Nation" : What about Romans 13?

Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"

Sahid
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Total Posts : 2013

Posted 4/8/2008 3:57 PM (GMT -6)

It was love that killed Ananias and Sapphira? Then love is so incomprehensible that we might as well not talk about it. If words mean their opposite, then we are truly deceived. Tell me, who had filled Ananias' heart? Was it also the Holy Spirit that drove the swine off the cliff? And did the Holy Spirit also seize the boy with convulsions and throw him into the fire?

Seriously.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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