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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/16/2008 1:23 PM (GMT -6) |   | | When I read "What about Thos WHo haven't heard," I was an inclusivist. Lately, I have been leading more towards being an exclusivist, given issues of God's freedom. I am curious: how does God's freedom weigh into salvation? Does God have the right to judge evil, simply because it is evil, even if that excludes the evil one hearing the salvation call? Or would that be unjust? On the other hand, does God not have the right to judge at any time he sees fit, given that we are his property? | | Back to Top | | |
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Asher
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 477
| Posted 4/16/2008 4:43 PM (GMT -6) | | If we take the idea of libertarian free will to it's logical conclusion, then we are not God's property.
If Buber's I-Thou means anything in the relationship between God and man, then we are not God's property. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/16/2008 6:26 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/16/2008 7:01 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Chaz Finney
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2008
Total Posts : 102
| Posted 4/18/2008 11:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Feelin: even if that excludes the evil one hearing the salvation call? Or would that be unjust?
Chaz: God will reveal Himself to all men even if it be through nature; so it is not necessary that a "missionary" comes and preaches the gospel to the "bushman in Africa". God will call all men and I believe on judgement day it will be revealed to all how He did it and the many times all men had to repent. For example, Noah and Abraham didn't make an altar call, nor did they know who Jesus was, they were simply faithful to what little revelation God gave them. Noah was faithful and built the ark; Abraham was faithful the promise that he would be the father of many nations and then each of these men were reckoned righteous.
If the evil bushman is sitting on the hill watching the sunset and comes to believe that there is a God (assume God's Spirit is working with the evil one) and then begins to obey his conscience and is in essence led of the Spirit; I believe that God will apply the blood of Christ to him and reckon him righteous in a similar way that He did with the OT saints. | | Back to Top | | |
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Joe McCowan
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 39
| Posted 4/18/2008 12:40 PM (GMT -6) | |
Chaz Finney said...
If the evil bushman is sitting on the hill watching the sunset and comes to believe that there is a God (assume God's Spirit is working with the evil one) and then begins to obey his conscience and is in essence led of the Spirit; I believe that God will apply the blood of Christ to him and reckon him righteous in a similar way that He did with the OT saints.
Why preach the gospel at all then? Why send missionaries if all people everywhere already know everything they need to know to inherit eternal life? The offer of salvation is not a civil rights issue. God is not required to offer salvation to anyone more less everyone. Some things, He entrusts us with; like the proclamation of the gospel.
Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"
Grace and Peace, Joe | | Back to Top | | |
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Joe McCowan
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 39
| Posted 4/18/2008 1:54 PM (GMT -6) | |
Chaz Finney said...
None of us on this BB or any theologian can address this issue with more than a guess,
Jhn 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
In the various lists that describe people who will not inherit the Kingdom of God, we have all sorts of vices listed. On none of these will we find that failing to believe in Jesus is what condemns people to hell. Sin condemns people and separates them from God. Everyone who will be cast into the lake of fire will be there because of there sins, not because they didn’t have the privilege of hearing the gospel. Redemption is only through the means that God provides. Jesus is not a way, a truth and a life. He is the way, the truth and the life. The Christian message is an exclusive claim of reconciliation and redemption only possible through repentance and faithfulness to Jesus Christ, following Him into the presence of Almighty God. The entire pretence of your contention is that God would somehow be unjust in allowing man to be punished for sin without offering him redemption. Such a presupposition is unproven.
1Cr 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Rev 21:7 "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
If you know of a Bushman who hasn’t heard the gospel, go and tell him. When we stand before God we will not be asking Him why He didn’t give the bushman an opportunity to hear the gospel; God will be asking us why we didn’t give those whom we came in contact with the gospel that was entrusted to us. From the Open perspective, WE are the opportunity that man has to hear the gospel. We will be held accountable for whether or not the message is preached. We have the ability, therefore we have the responsibility.
Grace and Peace, Joe | | Back to Top | | |
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Chaz Finney
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2008
Total Posts : 102
| Posted 4/18/2008 4:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Joe wrote: Jhn 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me...Redemption is only through the means that God provides. Jesus is not a way, a truth and a life. He is the way, the truth and the life.
Chaz: Joe I think you have missed my point, I know that all who hear the gospel will be accountable for what they do with Christ, and I also know that there will be many unrighteous heathen burning in hell as well. I am aware the there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved and that Jesus is the W, T, & L.
Question for you Joe: How will children who die at birth or in infancy get to heaven if they haven't heard the gospel or accepted Christ as their Lord? Answer: God will reckon them righteous and based on the work of Christ, they will enter heaven. All men throughout all times or dispensations ultimately gain access to heaven because of the ultimate sacrifice of Christ. I also believe that if someone is so mentally impaired that they fail to qualify as a "Free Moral Agent" God will not hold them accountable for their sins and they too will get into heaven through the work of Christ. Of course only God is in a position to judge who is a moral agent and who is not.
It appears that if infants and mentally challenged people can get to heaven without placing faith in Christ, then based on your reasoning, Christ is "a" way not "the" way. But the fact is that infants will go to heaven as will the bushman whom God saves even if this bushman never reads a page out of the New Testament. God will apply the sacrifice of Christ to him assuming this bushman walks in the Spirit and lives righteously in obedience to God. This is how God saved Noah, Abraham, Moses, infants, and His arm is not so short that He can't extend it to the bushman who is seeking the truth. Remember the bible is full of scriptures that state that God will reveal Himself to any man who is godfearing and seeking His face. If there isn't a bible or Christian in 1,000 miles; God as the Sovereign can use whatever means He chooses (ultimately thru the Holy Spirit) to communicate His moral law; and if this man is willing to follow whatever revelation God gives him, he will have Christ as his advocate at the judgement.
As I mentioned, this issue of the bushman is at best a SWG analysis; God's sovereignty is much a mystery, my views are somewhat different than yours yet my views account for infants, mentally impaired, and those that never hear the NT gospel. You seem to imply that my view allows for ignorance and thus allows for the unrighteous to gain heaven, they don't; they simply allow for God to save people with His "Long Arm" with whatever 'means of grace' that the Sovereign freely chooses.
Since this is a thread of hypothetical questions, Another question: What happened to the Jew who never heard of Christ, but kept the moral law and the law of Moses and then died 1 day after Christ's ressurection? Is he in hell because Jesus was the way truth and life and he never heard the gospel? did he miss heaven by one day? Or could God have saved him and applied the death of Chris to his life? If the answer is yes, than why can't God do the same for the bushman who obeys Him?
Chaz Post Edited (Chaz Finney) : 4/18/2008 5:52:53 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Joe McCowan
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 39
| Posted 4/21/2008 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | |
Question for you Joe: How will children who die at birth or in infancy get to heaven if they haven't heard the gospel or accepted Christ as their Lord? Answer: God will reckon them righteous and based on the work of Christ, they will enter heaven. All men throughout all times or dispensations ultimately gain access to heaven because of the ultimate sacrifice of Christ. I also believe that if someone is so mentally impaired that they fail to qualify as a "Free Moral Agent" God will not hold them accountable for their sins and they too will get into heaven through the work of Christ. Of course only God is in a position to judge who is a moral agent and who is not.
It appears that if infants and mentally challenged people can get to heaven without placing faith in Christ, then based on your reasoning, Christ is "a" way not "the" way. But the fact is that infants will go to heaven as will the bushman whom God saves even if this bushman never reads a page out of the New Testament. God will apply the sacrifice of Christ to him assuming this bushman walks in the Spirit and lives righteously in obedience to God. This is how God saved Noah, Abraham, Moses, infants, and His arm is not so short that He can't extend it to the bushman who is seeking the truth. Remember the bible is full of scriptures that state that God will reveal Himself to any man who is godfearing and seeking His face. If there isn't a bible or Christian in 1,000 miles; God as the Sovereign can use whatever means He chooses (ultimately thru the Holy Spirit) to communicate His moral law; and if this man is willing to follow whatever revelation God gives him, he will have Christ as his advocate at the judgement.
Chaz,
I don't buy into Augustine's version of Original Sin, so I don't view the issue of infancy/lack of ability as you presented it. Infants do not need forgiveness, they have not sinned. They do need redemption from death, which Christ provides, but they do not need to be forgiven of crimes they did not commit against God.
As far as the case of the Jew who did not hear of the resurrection of Christ, he is still looking for redemption through Christ is he not?
God can reveal Himself to those whom have never heard the gospel from man, yet it appears such cases are exceptions rather than rules. I know of reports where Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. all claim special revelation from Jesus Christ when crying out for such revelation. This is salvation by Jesus, through Jesus, not apart from Jesus. It is the gospel communicated by God. And while some may be struck blind on the road, most of us don't have the conversion experience of Paul. I don't think it is a good idea to assume that God will convert anyone apart from the proclamation of the gospel by His people. After all, it is our responsibility to make disciples, is it not?
Grace and Peace, Joe | | Back to Top | | |
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Chaz Finney
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2008
Total Posts : 102
| Posted 4/21/2008 10:45 AM (GMT -6) | | | Joe: I don't think it is a good idea to assume that God will convert anyone apart from the proclamation of the gospel by His people. After all, it is our responsibility to make disciples, is it not?
Chaz: "Where there is no ability there is no accountability." This is my scheme of justice (which is what this ultimately boils down to...), and God will use whatever means of grace He see fit to save someone which will ultimately be grounded in the person of Christ. The point I have been attempting to make is that God's normative or primary means of grace is the proclaimation of the gospel, yet the incidents that I have mentioned are "exceptions"; and we don't know how often of frequent these are made. God's sovereignty and the spirit realm are still much a mystery.
Regarding Augustine's view of originanal sin, I don't accept any scheme of OS; ontologically, men have always been and remain free moral agents regardless of Adam's fall. All of the attempts to prove a "sin nature" through the bible are at best tenuous. Man can of course become a slave to sin but this is do to his "sinning" and not a "sin nature". Jesus said any man who sins is a slave to sin; He didn't say that we are slaves to sin because of a sin nature. Post Edited (Chaz Finney) : 4/21/2008 12:34:01 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Joe McCowan
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 39
| Posted 4/21/2008 2:01 PM (GMT -6) | |
Chaz Finney said...
Joe: I don't think it is a good idea to assume that God will convert anyone apart from the proclamation of the gospel by His people. After all, it is our responsibility to make disciples, is it not?
Chaz: "Where there is no ability there is no accountability." This is my scheme of justice (which is what this ultimately boils down to...), and God will use whatever means of grace He see fit to save someone which will ultimately be grounded in the person of Christ. The point I have been attempting to make is that God's normative or primary means of grace is the proclaimation of the gospel, yet the incidents that I have mentioned are "exceptions"; and we don't know how often of frequent these are made. God's sovereignty and the spirit realm are still much a mystery.
Regarding Augustine's view of originanal sin, I don't accept any scheme of OS; ontologically, men have always been and remain free moral agents regardless of Adam's fall. All of the attempts to prove a "sin nature" through the bible are at best tenuous. Man can of course become a slave to sin but this is do to his "sinning" and not a "sin nature". Jesus said any man who sins is a slave to sin; He didn't say that we are slaves to sin because of a sin nature.
We are pretty much in agreement. We may come to different conclusions regarding "Where there is no ability there is no accountability" though. The statement I agree with, I would just add that we are condemned by our sins, not whether or not we have been given opportunity for redemption through Jesus Christ. The offer of, or opportunity for redemption is not a right of passage. No man is condemned for not hearing the gospel, he just has no redemption available to him apart from it. The condemnation is in the sin, not in the opportunity to respond to the gospel lack thereof.
Grace and Peace, Joe | | Back to Top | | |
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