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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 1:16 PM (GMT -6) |   | Corey:
I agree that people of other faiths will ultimately be saved by God, but that's a different topic than whether they will be condemned in the interim.
Ok, man. Play this out for me. I'm a Hindu mystic who lives in Bhagavan. I love God (as I understand God) unconditionally and with all my heart...and I always live in that love and see everything and everyone through that lens. I GENUINELY BELIEVE that ultimate reality...God...IS love!
I am before the Judgement seat of Christ (whom I wasn't exposed to, let's say).
What happens, Corey? What kind of "condemnation" do I receive?
Let me make a suggestion...
"All service done to 'Brahman' has been done unto me."
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/22/2008 1:22:03 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 4/22/2008 1:29 PM (GMT -6) | | First of all, this hypothetical never obtains. "There's none who understand, none who seek for God", all that Rom 3:10 stuff. Not that you or I am in any way the measure, but if we, as ones who have received the holy spirit, fail to "love God (as I understand God) unconditionally and with all my heart...and I always live in that love and see everything and everyone through that lens"... how much more so for one outside of Christ?!
So... that doesn't leave much fuel for speculation beyond that, but here goes. My picture of the judgment is that it is the process of epistemic distance being brought to zero. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth as all falseness in our lives burns away. I say that for the Christian, the one who has faith in Christ, this experience (of delusion being burned away) will be one of hope, a relief to finally be rid of the crap. The same experience for one who does not know God as revealed in Jesus will be that of despair! What possible grounds could they have for thinking this burning was a GOOD thing?! It takes faith in the midst of the flame to experience it in love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindess, self-control. Imagine that experience without faith, faith only possible by knowing Jesus. The hindu, no matter how devout, would not have any grounds for this faith.
Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are.Post Edited (Corey) : 4/22/2008 1:52:51 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 1:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Big deal. So he's done things that please God... it doesn't help him subjectively if the guy doesn't have faith. That is, he's going to understand the burning presence of God as a horrific experience. He won't have eyes to see it as beauty.
Let me get this absolutely straight. A non-Christian mystic who sees ultimate reality/God AS love and lives in this love with themselves and others and demonstrates "loving-kindness" everywhere...will have a "horrifying experience" when met with the light of God's love in the Face of Jesus, post-mortem? This non-Christian mystic won't have the "eyes" to see the perfectly loving Jesus as beautiful?
Is that what I'm hearing you say?
I need to be sure.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/22/2008 1:59:13 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 4/22/2008 2:10 PM (GMT -6) | | | I don't think you're feelin' me. It's not that God is doing something horrifying for the sake of punishment or whatever, it's that the subject can have no framework for understanding the destruction of all delusions in one's life as a good thing.
My daughters have learned through years of relationship with me that when it happens that I "whap" them, that it's in love and for their edification. Imagine I did that to some stranger. How could they understand that experience in any way other than horror at me? They don't know me, all they know is that I'm the source of their immediate suffering.
Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 2:10 PM (GMT -6) | | "There is no real difference between a Christian mystic and a Hindu saint. Their sayings never clash. The messages of the saints are essentially the same. They have always been a call to men to discover the Wisdom of the Self or Atman."
--SRI SWAMI SIVANANDA, "The Glory of Saints"
What's the nature of a saint, to Sri Sivananada?
A saint is free from I-ness and mine-ness. He is free from lust, anger, and greed. He loves all beings as his own Self. He is endowed with dispassion and mercy. He speaks the truth and serves all. He ever meditates on the Lord. He does not speak ill of others. He has equal vision. He sees Devi or Mother in all women. He is ever joyful and peaceful. He sings the glory of the Lord. He has divine knowledge. He is fearless and generous. He never begs, but gives. He is majestic and lordly. Such a one is rare in the whole world. He is not easily found. He is not born everywhere.
Love is the very breath of a saint. Mercy is his very nature. His heart overflows with compassion. He does not look to the faults of others. He returns good for evil and blesses those who curse him.
The heart of a sage is a flame of love and his whole being thirsts for the uplift of suffering humanity. He forgets himself utterly and lives but for the sake of others.
A saint sees the whole world as the projection of his own soul. A sage sees unity in diversity. He becomes one with the whole world.
A sage is a youth amongst the youth, aged amongst the old, brave amongst the brave, a child amongst children. He feels the pain and suffering among sufferers.
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Wow. A non-Christian person thinking this could NEVER see the loving, self-giving truth of Jesus...
Right? 
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 2:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
It's not that God is doing something horrifying for the sake of being punishment or whatever, it's that the subject can have no framework for understanding the destruction of all delusions in one's life as a good thing.
I do understand what you are saying, Corey. What I'm trying to tell you is that some religions DO have a framework to understand the destruction of delusions as GOOD. Like unto a father chastising children. Hinduism is one.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 4/22/2008 2:21 PM (GMT -6) | | | Not buying it. You have to PERSONALLY KNOW the one who is "punishing" you to accept, by faith, that this is a good thing. Else, why believe this destruction is good? Why assume the things being destroyed are worthless delusions; why not assume this is a bad thing happening?
You have to know and trust the character of the person doing the destruction. It will take faith in the midst of that, faith that is impossible to place in someone you don't know personally. Hinduism does not prepare a person for this sort of encounter with God.
Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are.Post Edited (Corey) : 4/22/2008 2:24:18 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 2:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Not buying it. You have to PERSONALLY KNOW the one who is "punishing" you to accept, by faith, that this is a good thing. Else, why think this destruction of things you've valued is good? Why assume it's delusion being destroyed; why not assume that valuable things are? You have to know and trust the character of the person doing the destruction. It will take faith in the midst of that, faith that is impossible to place in someone you don't know personally.
Corey, do you not believe it's possible that some Hindus personally LOVE AND TRUST the "Supreme Personality of Godhead"..just like the soldier TRUSTED Tash and was forgiven by Aslan?
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Corey:
You have to know and trust the character of the person doing the destruction. It will take faith in the midst of that, faith that is impossible to place in someone you don't know personally. Hinduism does not prepare a person for this sort of encounter with God
Please highlight the aspects of Hinduism (particularly Dvaita or A-B-A, and Bhakti yoga) that demonstrate what you are saying. Maybe I'm missing something...
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/22/2008 2:33:09 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 2:31 PM (GMT -6) | | The Bhagavata Purana describes three different levels of Brahman realisation. The first is an impersonal state of blissful consciousness, similar to nirvana where one is aware of the great universal Brahman effulgence permeating everything; the second is classified as Paramatma realisation, wherein one is actually able to see the Form of Godhead alongside one's own soul (atma); the third and ultimate realisation is described as Bhagavan, in this state one has a direct loving relationship with The Supreme Personality of Godhead himself, in one or more of His transcendental forms.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 9:44 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 9:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Perfect love casts out all fear of what?
Heh.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
"...the third and ultimate realisation is described as Bhagavan, in this state one has a direct loving relationship with The Supreme Personality of Godhead himself..."
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/22/2008 9:52:40 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 4/22/2008 11:14 PM (GMT -6) | | I ask in advance for you to forgive me if this is too sassy sounding.
So if a person "loves" their conception of the Supreme then God will turn the crank on some sort of transitive algebra machine, voila, it turns out the person actually loved God the whole time and thus will do just fine on Judgment Day.
First, it might well be said that everyone has and loves their own conception of the Supreme. Who doesn't, consciously or unconsciously, orient their lives around a hierarchy of values? The thing is, we're all natural idol-makers. Isn't the very definition of idolatry the substition of something else in the place of God? It's pretty clear from biblical stories that God's not too impressed with idolatry. Made his top 10 list, as I recall.
Second, is loving the Supreme sufficient to being found "in Christ"? And who has ever rightly loved God with ALL their heart, soul, mind, strength? Who has ever truly and fully loved their neighbor as themselves? I still say that NO ONE has except Jesus. So this whole thing is more than a bit moot anyway.
Third, a semantic issue. How can we know that the stuff behind the language used by Hindus (or anyone, for that matter) is the same as the stuff behind our language of God? How can I, or why should I, believe that they know God as I do (properly basically)? My own understanding of God is as in a mirror dimly, how much less confident, then, ought I be of someone else's claims where I don't have direct access to their experience? Has the Holy Spirit been given to them as a deposit of things to come? Does the Holy Spirit confirm and cry out, "Abba, Father!" within them? How on earth would I ever know that? For various reasons I think I have grounds to say they don't have the Holy Spirit. If they don't have this guarantee now, why suddenly think things are going to go well for them on that Day?
Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are. Post Edited (Corey) : 4/22/2008 11:40:06 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/23/2008 6:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
So if a person "loves" their conception of the Supreme then God will turn the crank on some sort of transitive algebra machine, voila, it turns out the person actually loved God the whole time and thus will do just fine on Judgment Day.
Actually, what we are talking about is evangelical inclusivism which is inherent in the idea of post-mortem evangelism. People operate by the "light" that they have, and then God deals with them accordingly. This is nothing new at all.
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Corey:
First, it might well be said that everyone has and loves their own conception of the Supreme. Who doesn't, consciously or unconsciously, orient their lives around a hierarchy of values? The thing is, we're all natural idol-makers. Isn't the very definition of idolatry the substition of something else in the place of God? It's pretty clear from biblical stories that God's not too impressed with idolatry. Made his top 10 list, as I recall.
There are baptized, communion-taking professing Christians who love a SELF-ORIENTED CONCEPT of Jesus (like the "Buddy Christ" or something) such that they struggle to bear the "fruit" of living by the Law of Love. That's just as bad of an idolatry. Just because that happens I don't immediately DOUBT their sincerity of their spiritual seeking of God. Why would I take a stance of immediate distrust of the sincerity of other religious adherents?
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Corey:
Second, is loving the Supreme sufficient to being found "in Christ"? And who has ever rightly loved God with ALL their heart, soul, mind, strength? Who has ever truly and fully loved their neighbor as themselves? I still say that NO ONE has except Jesus. So this whole thing is more than a bit moot anyway.
If all have fallen short of God's glory (save Jesus), then God has the right to bestow His Kingdom blessings on any human he sees fit. Even non-Christians who are loving him as best as they can in ignorance.
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Corey:
Third, a semantic issue. How can we know that the stuff behind the language used by Hindus (or anyone, for that matter) is the same as the stuff behind our language of God? How can I, or why should I, believe that they know God as I do (properly basically)? My own understanding of God is as in a mirror dimly, how much less confident, then, ought I be of someone else's claims where I don't have direct access to their experience? Has the Holy Spirit been given to them as a deposit of things to come? Does the Holy Spirit confirm and cry out, "Abba, Father!" within them? How on earth would I ever know that? For various reasons I think I have grounds to say they don't have the Holy Spirit. If they don't have this guarantee now, why suddenly think things are going to go well for them on that Day?
1) By the fruit you will know them, right? If someone is bearing forth the fruit of the Spirit (love, peace, goodness, etc) in their interactions, I choose to believe that the Spirit is working in that...even if the person is not Christian.
2) This is an ESSENTIAL read on this...
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 4/23/2008 7:45 AM (GMT -6) | | | D: evangelical inclusivism which is inherent in the idea of post-mortem evangelism
Corey: Yes, I'm very familiar with the term 'inclusivism'. I know that's what we're talking about . And I reject the claim that this is "inherent in the idea of post-mortem evangelism." One of the big motivations driving the formulation of inclusivism is the problem of eternal damnation. Since I don't hold to that, I don't have that motivation. I guess you could label me an exclusive universalist. D: God has the right to bestow His Kingdom blessings on any human he sees fit Corey: Yep. And there's not just a little biblical support that one must be "in Christ" to be saved from the judgment to come. The 5 virgins who weren't prepared missed the kick-off party. Doesn't mean that God doesn't love them and isn't going to ultimately bring reconciliation.
Anyway, I like how a Catholic friend of mine phrased it: "We know where light is. We don't know where light isn't." That is, you may be right that God will give a pass to those who loved [God] in ignorance. But it's far from clear that this actually obtains (that anyone adequately loves God), and it's far from clear exegetically that this is God's intention.
Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are. Post Edited (Corey) : 4/23/2008 7:55:10 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/23/2008 8:01 AM (GMT -6) | | I guess this is what I think.
I believe that God's Holy Spirit can work with human spirits who are honestly "seeking" Truth...and revealing the truth of the Law of Love (The great commandment of Jesus) to them as they understand it.
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges everyone's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
The human "heart"...where their "consciences" are operating.
The "ORGAN OF FAITH" that all human beings have...because all humans are created in God's image.
God would know whose "hearts" were GENUINE seekers of Him, humbling themselves to the little of God they do understand...and which "hearts" were not genuine. That's what Matthew 7 shows. And I believe that, via post-mortem evangelism, God would reveal his FACE to his lovingly ignorant devotee. (the "Tash" servant, if we must). And I believe that those people who've dedicated themselves to the Supreme Lover (God, however they understood it) would recognize that Shining Face, that of Christ. When the episemological veil is removed..."love recognizes Love"
"There is no real difference between a Christian mystic and a Hindu saint. Their sayings never clash. The messages of the saints are essentially the same..."
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A (HINDU) saint is free from I-ness and mine-ness. He is free from lust, anger, and greed. He loves all beings as his own Self. He is endowed with dispassion and mercy. He speaks the truth and serves all. He ever meditates on the Lord. He does not speak ill of others. He has equal vision. He sees Devi or Mother in all women. He is ever joyful and peaceful. He sings the glory of the Lord. He has divine knowledge. He is fearless and generous. He never begs, but gives. He is majestic and lordly. Such a one is rare in the whole world. He is not easily found. He is not born everywhere.
Love is the very breath of a saint. Mercy is his very nature. His heart overflows with compassion. He does not look to the faults of others. He returns good for evil and blesses those who curse him.
The heart of a sage is a flame of love and his whole being thirsts for the uplift of suffering humanity. He forgets himself utterly and lives but for the sake of others.
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Would God not recognize these "devoted hearts" (say, Sri Sivananda) as "Tash servants"?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/23/2008 8:11:05 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/29/2008 4:39 PM (GMT -6) | | | I truly, truly challenge everyone here to at least look at these sessions.
Really, REALLY interesting stuff!
On...friggin...point.
PS: Consciousness<==>"spirit" Think "Uncreated Spirit-to-created spirit" relationship.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/29/2008 4:37:32 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/29/2008 4:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Brief point of fact.
Spiritual stillness/inner stillness is a main theme that Eckhart Tolle talks about in his works (The Power of Now, Stillness Speaks, etc.)
"Stillness".
Hmmm...hesychasm? Hmmmm...
Interestingly enough, one of his self-proclaimed influences was Meister Eckhart, a German Christian mystic.
(His naturally born German name was "Ulrich" Tolle. He changed it to "Eckhart" later in his life. I wonder why. )
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Hesychasm (Greek ἡσυχασμός hesychasmos, from ἡσυχία hesychia, "stillness, rest, quiet, silence") is an eremitic tradition of prayer in the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some other Eastern Churches of the Byzantine Rite, practised (Gk: ἡσυχάζω hesychazo: "to keep stillness") by the Hesychast (Gr. Ἡσυχαστής hesychastes).
Based on Christ's injunction in the Gospel of Matthew to "go into your closet to pray", Hesychasm in tradition has been the process of retiring inward by ceasing to register the senses, in order to achieve an experiential knowledge of God.
Interestingly enough...in a radio broadcast of Father Hopko...I heard him say that SILENCE was the language of heaven.
Nice...
My thought...
A potential connecting point between what Tolle is saying and Christian experience (meaning a human being experiencing Christ's reality) is hesychastic experience...which leads to nepsis...living in the Present Moment in God's Time...experiencing Mundane Ecstasy...as the Uncreated Spirit/Consciousness relates to the created spirit/consciousness in epiclesis...expressing divine life in human existence.
"He who always abides in a present now, in him does God beget his Son without ceasing."
Meister Eckhart, as quoted by Kallistos Ware in "The Orthodox Way"
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/29/2008 5:08:20 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/29/2008 5:25 PM (GMT -6) | | More cool stuff.
This fascinating woman was mentioned by Oprah...and will be interviewed by her in May.
Jill Bolte Taylor
www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/229
Interestingly enough, this is EXACTLY some of the stuff that James Loder talks about in The Knight's Move: The Relational Logic of the Spirit in Theology and Science meaning the bi-polar assymetrical relationship seen in the hemispericity of the brain. I knew this stuff made sense...
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/29/2008 5:24:09 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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