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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/21/2008 7:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/21/2008 7:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Oh, my stars and garters.
Thank you, Bruce.
I'm going to have fun with this one.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/21/2008 8:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Greg:
More specifically, it struck me that many (if not most) of Tolle’s ideas are simply restatements of ideas espoused by J. Krishnamurti -- though, curiously enough, Tolle never refers to him.
“Understanding of the self only arises in relationship, in watching yourself in relationship to people, ideas, and things; to trees, the earth, and the world around you and within you. Relationship is the mirror in which the self is revealed. Without self-knowledge there is no basis for right thought and action.”
Krishnamurti
Hmmm...
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/21/2008 8:19 AM (GMT -6) | | | Tom,
In June, I'm gonna ask Greg does he know what "nepsis" or "hesychasm" entails.
Particularly the "emptiness of mind" or "moving the mind into the heart" parts.
HAAAA!
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/21/2008 8:41 AM (GMT -6) | |
Tom said...
I thought of you when I read Greg's response to Tolle.
Me too!
Especially when Greg wrote:
"What's particular aggravating is that Tolle never supports these religious beliefs with evidence or argumentation."
Tolle beat Polk to press. End of story.
as rain falls on your feet you stop and stare and it's so clear that i want you i don't know your name it's all the same, you've got a place in my heart Post Edited (Laika) : 4/21/2008 8:52:20 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/21/2008 9:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Can you give me feedback on the other thing, Tom? 
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/21/2008 12:42 PM (GMT -6) | |
Tom said...Didn't we sign on the dotted line? ;o) ____X______ Tom
That 'X' looks forged.
Did you type it left-handed? Forgers use that technique....
as rain falls on your feet
you stop and stare and it's so clear that i want you
i don't know your name
it's all the same, you've got a place in my heart | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/21/2008 2:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Interesting.
I wonder does Greg know about Dvaita Hinduism...or the Achintya-Bheda-Abheda school of Vedanta.
There are schools of Hindu thought that believe in the reality of particularity and diversity.
On the A-B-A...
Historically within Hinduism there are two conflicting philosophies regarding the relationship between living beings (jiva or atma) and God (Ishvara, Brahman or Bhagavan). Advaita schools assert the monistic view that the individual soul and God are one and the same, whereas Dvaita schools give the dualistic argument that the individual soul and God are eternally separate. The philosophy of Achintya-bheda-abheda includes elements of both viewpoints. The living soul is intrinsically linked with the Supreme Lord, and yet at the same time is not the same as God - the exact nature of this relationship being inconceivable to the human mind.
This idea is panentheistic and works by an idea of...surprise, surprise...bi-polar asymmetrical relational unity (ala Loder).
But we'll talk about this in June. 
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/21/2008 3:04:09 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/21/2008 3:09 PM (GMT -6) | | And we'll talk about Bhakti, too...
-----------------
The ultimate goal.
The forces that cause creation sustain and maintain that which has become created and eventually cause the destruction of that which was created – named Brahman, by the Upanishads – permeate everything in the Creation. Brahman is the self creating force that is in all that has a name and form as well as that which remains formless and nameless.
The Bhagavata Purana describes three different levels of Brahman realisation. The first is an impersonal state of blissful consciousness, similar to nirvana where one is aware of the great universal Brahman effulgence permeating everything; the second is classified as Paramatma realisation, wherein one is actually able to see the Form of Godhead alongside one's own soul (atma); the third and ultimate realisation is described as Bhagavan, in this state one has a direct loving relationship with The Supreme Personality of Godhead himself, in one or more of His transcendental forms.
The main difference between bhakti philosophy and all others is that the goal is also the means of attaining the goal. In other words, bhakti, devotional service to the Supreme, is attained by engaging in devotional service to the Supreme. The difference between the starting and concluding stages is that in the beginning the activity of bhakti is a forced engagement, whereas in the conclusion it is a spontaneous, loving reciprocation.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/21/2008 3:23:58 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/21/2008 3:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Certain Hindu and Buddhist mystics end up saying that LOVE is the ULTIMATE REALITY.
"Bhagavan" and "Tathagata"
Guess they're wrong, huh?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 8:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Let me say this.
If Tolle's work is based upon "rather typical eastern metaphysics" (Greg seeming to mean Advaita/Non-dualistic ), then it can be understood how many of Tolle's intuitions about freedom from the egoic self and living in the present moment (obviously being grounded in eastern mystical experience), can be employed from a BI-POLAR ASSYMETRICAL RELATIONAL UNITY perspective (or even the Dvaitaic perspective, which is a "typical eastern metaphysic" )
So, Tolle's ideas would NOT necessarily be something that "fundamentally contradicts the biblical worldview" if by "biblical worldview", we mean a belief in a loving God who is eternally, ontologically distinct from a created personal being as they exist in a love relationship with one another.
Not at all, as I see it. But we'll talk about this in June...God willing!
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/22/2008 8:07:07 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 8:25 AM (GMT -6) | | | All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges everyone's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
THE
LAW
OF
LOVE
He has shown all you people what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.
'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/22/2008 8:26:11 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 10:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Side thought.
Let's say that you have a baptized, church-attending, professing Christian who DOESN'T live by the Law of Love (the "Lord, Lord..." people Jesus talked about in Matthew 7)...and a Hindu mystic who DOES live by the Law of Love (experiencing "Bhagavan" )
They both die...and go before the Jesus in judgement.
Which one is MORE LIKELY to experience "hell" or "painful separation from God"?
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"
------------------------
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges everyone's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel.
---------------------
C.S. Lewis and "The Last Battle"
Plot summary on wiki...
There is also a point where two soldiers of Calormen are found in Aslan's Country. The first is taken by Tash, because he never actually believed in him and thus had false faith. The second is found confused in Aslan's Country, because he had served Tash faithfully and believed in him and been a good man by how he grew up, and yet was forgiven by Aslan, saying that 'all service done unto Tash has been done unto me'. This shows an interesting balance on the question of religious pluralism: while good men of different religions can still share in the Kingdom of Heaven, that does not imply the equal truth of those religions.
Just a thought...
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/22/2008 12:13:03 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 12:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Any takers on the question above?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 4/22/2008 12:38 PM (GMT -6) | | D: Which one is MORE LIKELY to experience "hell" or "painful separation from God"?
Corey: I'd say both.
Although I am persuaded of ultimate universal reconcilation, nonetheless condemnation awaits all who are not "in Christ Jesus" (rom 8:1). Not so sure it's "painful separation" though. It may be that "hell" is the experience of the presence of God by those not in Christ, those who cannot truly say, "Jesus is Lord".
Is Hell Real?
Posted Friday, April 18, 2008
Fr. Stephen discusses the Orthodox understanding of the difference of heaven and hell and some of its implications for how we speak about them.
Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are.Post Edited (Corey) : 4/22/2008 12:51:47 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 12:56 PM (GMT -6) | | D: Which one is MORE LIKELY to experience "hell" or "painful separation from God"?
Corey: I'd say both.
Ok...
"The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
--Jesus
Out of the two (the baptized, church-going, professing Christian and the Hindu experiencer of "Bhagavan"...who would fall into what category?
Seriously wondering this...
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/22/2008 1:02:33 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 1:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Let's not forget.
Greg believes in post-mortem evangelism. He feels like it's ENTAILED in the free-will theodicy argument (See "Across the Spectrum" ).
So...I wonder how the Hindu experiencer of Bhagavan would do in a situation of post-mortem evangelism. It would seem like the "faithful Tash worshipper" thing to me, where the person would recognize JESUS as the Face of the God whom they LOVINGLY relate to...in ignorance.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 1:05 PM (GMT -6) | | False security is a CHURCH problem already. We don't have to worry about people like Tolle for that. That's what Matthew 7 seems to say.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 1:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Even FATHER HOPKO said in a radio broadcast that it was possible for unchurched people of OTHER FAITHS to be saved by God...and for baptized believers who regularly partake the Eucharist to go to hell.
So what does that mean?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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