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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/21/2008 7:32 AM (GMT -6) |   | Christ, our idea about Christ, is the perfect model by reference to which we can answer the question about who we are. He is the man, "the first-born of every creature," (Col. 1:15), the archetype of which every human being is, in terms of his or her potentialities, the image. The difference between Christ and us is that Christ is eternally God's son, while we are God's sons because we are created in the image of Christ's divine humanity. To be a son of God is to have the Divine as the determining element of our being, that is, to be inherent in the divine hypostasis (I am's note: God the Logos). It is precisely this that makes us human and that constitutes our humanity. To the degree to which we fail to attain a full realization of this, we fail to be human.
Alexei Nesteruk. Light from the East. p. 243
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Think "narrative"
Creation as "Big Story"
Let's say that the HUMAN BEING that was intended as the Incarnate Logos (Jesus) was the MAIN CHARACTER that God "thought" about in reflecting on HOW his divine nature could be expressed in a NON-DIVINE "context." God's contingent self-reflection to Godself, as it were.
All of Creation (angels, dark matter, etc) is this "context" for God's self-disclosure in Jesus the Christ, the ONE Incarnate Word of the ONE God. And Jesus the Christ is the ARCHETYPE for what human beings are and how they are designed to work in it's context. When we look at how Christ-the-Logos' human nature operated...we are SEEING what the human nature is CREATED and DESIGNED to do in it's context, including how the human nature was to interact with the Uncreated Holy Spirit. (so-called "miracles", complete love of God, self, and other, Father-Child relationship with the Uncreated via "spirit" to "Spirit" communion, etc.) Many people think that Jesus is UNLIKE us because he was the Unique Incarnation...but that's the FARTHEST from the truth. As the Church has defended over and again: Christ Jesus was HOMOOUSIAS with us in every way. He shows us what human beings do when they live as children "anointed" with God's Spirit continaully. He demonstrated the NATURAL "self-giving" nature that can be displayed in human existence via the power of God's Spirit.
JESUS...and ONLY JESUS...is this Incarnate Word, this Archetype, antedating Creation itself.
All of Creation, INCLUDING ALL OTHER HUMAN BEINGS, our "in the context."
Jesus is the star of the show called "Salvation History". We are CO-stars.
This is how Jesus is UTTERLY SINGULAR AND UNIQUE as a human being.
And how Jesus is the "True Adam"
Does any of this make sense?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/21/2008 7:37:04 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/21/2008 7:40 AM (GMT -6) | | | Well, Bruce. Does it make sense?
Jesus was the only human who never FAILED to be fully human. (No gnomic will)
All other humans HAVE failed to be fully human, living sub-human and inhuman lives of spiritual separation and death. (Grounded in the gnomic will)
All other human beings have fallen short of God's glory.
But not the Spotless Lamb of God. 
Right?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/21/2008 7:46 AM (GMT -6) | | This is how this plays out...
EVERY HUMAN BEING in Christ by the Spirit living in the Father's Love can say this...
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me (insert YOURSELF, the believer, in that "me"),
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
or...let's do an "ecclesia" remix...
"The Spirit of the Lord is on us (Body of Christ)
because he has anointed us
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent us to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
We are HEIRS OF GODS and CO-HEIRS WITH CHRIST.
As we "self-give" unto death with Christ in utter humility to the Father's Will, we have the AUTHORITY to say these words...by the SAME Spirit.
There's NO OTHER GATE to go through.
"Jesus, I know. And Paul, I know. But who are you?"
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/21/2008 7:49:55 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 7:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Jeff? Brandon? Does this make any sense to you guys?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/22/2008 2:39 PM (GMT -6) | | Joe:
There is more than just the eternity past that separates the nature of man from that of Jesus. God becoming man, is far different than a man being created by God. Jesus is the Creator, we are the created. Adam was always the created, never the Creator. Adam (prior to the fall) was a human in perfect fellowship with God, having not sinned, not an immortal partaker of the divine nature. Redemption brings us back to that fellowship, which remains fellowship between the created and the Creator.
In other words, no other human was the Incarnate Creator/Word but Jesus. I agree.
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Joe:
Have you considered that the indwelling of the Spirit is similar to God walking with Adam in the Garden, and that it has more to do with fellowship and guidance than it does theosis?
Could you elaborate on this, please?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Joe McCowan
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 39
| Posted 4/23/2008 7:32 AM (GMT -6) | |
"I am-in-I Am" said...Joe: Have you considered that the indwelling of the Spirit is similar to God walking with Adam in the Garden, and that it has more to do with fellowship and guidance than it does theosis?Could you elaborate on this, please?
Redemption from sin brings us back to a former standing, a standing that Adam once enjoyed in the sight of God. The story of Adam is not one of divine nature lost, it is one of fellowship and purpose lost. Adam rejected the purpose for his existence by seeking to be as God rather than remaining subservient to Him. Prior to the fall, he had perfect fellowship with God without any sin separating him from his Creator. As long as he acknowledged that God was the Creator and that he was the creature, and acknowledged all that that relationship entailed, he would continue to have perfect fellowship with God. But Adam desired to be more than just the “created”, he wanted to be as God. He desired a standing beyond what God had intended or would allow.
As God redeems us and puts His Spirit within us, He is not elevating us to a position beyond what Adam experienced in Eden. Fellowship is being restored in the life of the disciple, we are again being lead by God on paths of righteousness for His name’s sake. The Spirit grants us fellowship and guidance, which is a glimpse of what Adam experienced prior to the fall and of what we shall experience in the life to come. The Spirit bids us to follow Jesus into the presence of God, and redeems us to our original purpose. The Spirit teaches us how to live in the Kingdom, not according to our own desires, but according to the intents and purposes of God, to bare God’s image and to be a reflection of His glory. Jesus is the substance, and we are to be the reflection. Desiring more than that is to repeat the sin of Adam, seeking to be “as God” instead of subservient to Him. In your posts, it appears that you are contending for a position beyond what God intended or will allow. Maybe I am wrong, but that is just how it comes across.
Grace and Peace, Joe | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/23/2008 7:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Joe:
Redemption from sin brings us back to a former standing, a standing that Adam once enjoyed in the sight of God. The story of Adam is not one of divine nature lost, it is one of fellowship and purpose lost. Adam rejected the purpose for his existence by seeking to be as God rather than remaining subservient to Him. Prior to the fall, he had perfect fellowship with God without any sin separating him from his Creator. As long as he acknowledged that God was the Creator and that he was the creature, and acknowledged all that that relationship entailed, he would continue to have perfect fellowship with God. But Adam desired to be more than just the “created”, he wanted to be as God. He desired a standing beyond what God had intended or would allow.
As God redeems us and puts His Spirit within us, He is not elevating us to a position beyond what Adam experienced in Eden. Fellowship is being restored in the life of the disciple, we are again being lead by God on paths of righteousness for His name’s sake. The Spirit grants us fellowship and guidance, which is a glimpse of what Adam experienced prior to the fall and of what we shall experience in the life to come. The Spirit bids us to follow Jesus into the presence of God, and redeems us to our original purpose. The Spirit teaches us how to live in the Kingdom, not according to our own desires, but according to the intents and purposes of God, to bare God’s image and to be a reflection of His glory. Jesus is the substance, and we are to be the reflection. Desiring more than that is to repeat the sin of Adam, seeking to be “as God” instead of subservient to Him. In your posts, it appears that you are contending for a position beyond what God intended or will allow. Maybe I am wrong, but that is just how it comes across.
I completely understand that the primary sin is "transgression"...trying to be MORE (or LESS) than the boundaries that God has set for us. The Adamic couple went "beyond" what their God-defined boundaries were...and they suffered the ramifications. And I understand how what I say can is "going beyond" what God actually wishes for our self-understanding and relationship with him. But I really don't think I'm doing that...
All I think I'm trying to say is that Christ-the-Logos' human nature DEFINES the boundaries of what fully developed humanity is meant to be. Adam was made in the "image" of the Archetype, Christ. Jesus is our Archetype and is homoousias with us. So the way that Jesus' created human nature related to the Uncreated God (including the relationship between human spirit and Holy Spirit) is the way that ALL human beings have been CREATED to "be." Full microcosms and mediators of "heaven and earth" or "spirit and dust", temples/earthen vessels of the Holy Spirit of Christ, His very Body. These are the implications of the enanthropoesis/theosis relationship. (God became human, so that humanity could become god.)
In short, I'm saying that Christ's humanity shows us what it means to be FULLY HUMAN (a son of God on earth).
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Joe McCowan
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Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 39
| Posted 4/23/2008 8:24 AM (GMT -6) | | |
I think that Jesus did go beyond the capabilities of man in that He was able to redeem mankind when mankind could not redeem himself. His authority was beyond that of other men, His relationship with the Father was beyond that of other men, His abilities were beyond that of other men, and therefore His responsibilities were beyond that of other men. That being said, He gives us a substance to reflect, an image to bare that is not corrupted by sin. We should strive for perfection, to be the perfect reflection of Jesus. The substance is not dependent upon the reflection, however the reflection is completely dependent upon the substance. This is the point where I believe Adam and subsequent generations have failed to make a proper distinction. John the Baptist, the greatest man ever born of a woman (according to Jesus), seemed to have a good handle on this. He was ever pointing the way, never seeking to be the way. He understood his own value extended only to the point in which he could exalt Jesus.
Grace and Peace, Joe | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/23/2008 8:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Matthew 11:11
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Luke 7:28
I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/23/2008 8:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Like John, we must decrease that Christ-the-Logos in us (via the Holy Spirit) may increase.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Joe McCowan
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 39
| Posted 4/23/2008 11:51 AM (GMT -6) | |
"I am-in-I Am" said...Like John, we must decrease that Christ-the-Logos in us (via the Holy Spirit) may increase.
This is precisely the type of language that makes me weary of your post. The undertone just doesn't sit well with me.
John was not referring to the taking over of his own faculties or being, nor was he speaking of deification or assimilation, but was directing his comment towards Jesus as the object of our faith, the redeemer of mankind, being distinct from the rest of mankind. John had just made a speech affirming that he was not the Christ. His statement said nothing of "Christ-the-Logos in us" nor did it imply such;
Jhn 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
We need to remember that John was filled with the Holy Spirit even prior to his birth.
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb
Had anyone ever had the right to claim that he was filled with Christ-the-Logos or say "I am in I AM”, it was John. Yet John chose to say "There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose." He never left any question as to his position in relation to Jesus. He didn't internalize the gospel to the point that it became all about himself, his filling of the Spirit, or even about those who would believe his message. John simply preached repentance and faithfulness to Jesus Christ, the one who can lead us into the presence of God.
Grace and Peace, Joe
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/23/2008 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Joe:
This is precisely the type of language that makes me weary of your post. The undertone just doesn't sit well with me.
What is the undertone to which you are reacting? I'm thinking that there is some dissonance going on. Help me understand. I'm really open to seeing what's causing the "weariness".
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Joe:
John was not referring to the taking over of his own faculties or being, nor was he speaking of deification or assimilation, but was directing his comment towards Jesus as the object of our faith, the redeemer of mankind, being distinct from the rest of mankind. John had just made a speech affirming that he was not the Christ. His statement said nothing of "Christ-the-Logos in us" nor did it imply such
I was noting a perceived similarity of thought, Joe. That our own SELF-IMPORTANCE must decrease as Christ's importance (and our reliance on him and recognition of his personal presence in our lives via the Holy Spirit) increases. This is unto the "I, not I, but Christ" sensibility of reorienting everything around Christ. I was not trying to say that John was specifically referring to Christ's inner presence with his particular statement. That wouldn't make any sense for me to say. So...sorry for the confusion. 
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/23/2008 12:57:06 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/23/2008 12:13 PM (GMT -6) | | It's seems, Joe, that you have a sensibility about the distinction of Jesus from all other humans in his LORDSHIP being the Incarnate Word. It also seems to me that you think that what I'm saying is, I suppose, obscuring that distinction between Jesus and Spirit-filled believers in Jesus. I honestly don't see it that way...and it doesn't play out that way in my perspective. Christ is the Head of his Body...and we are branches in Christ, the Vine.
Thanks for the open conversation, Joe. 
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/23/2008 12:45:08 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Joe McCowan
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 39
| Posted 4/23/2008 2:01 PM (GMT -6) | |
"I am-in-I Am" said...It's seems, Joe, that you have a sensibility about the distinction of Jesus from all other humans in his LORDSHIP being the Incarnate Word. It also seems to me that you think that what I'm saying is, I suppose, obscuring that distinction between Jesus and Spirit-filled believers in Jesus. I honestly don't see it that way...and it doesn't play out that way in my perspective. Christ is the Head of his Body...and we are branches in Christ, the Vine. Thanks for the open conversation, Joe.
You are correct. I keep seeing a blurring of the lines, even though you have said that is not your intention. I didn't think you were being deceptive in your reference to John 3:30, I only meant to point out that your thoughts share a similar tint, viewed through the rose colored glasses of the theosis. The distinction between Creator and created, Redeemer and redeemed is sometimes lost when folks take the doctrine of theosis beyond its bounds. Sometimes it seems you are walking on the fence, while other times I agree wholeheartedly with your assertions.
I do enjoy your insights and appreciate the conversation.
Grace and Peace, Joe | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/23/2008 5:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Joe:
The distinction between Creator and created, Redeemer and redeemed is sometimes lost when folks take the doctrine of theosis beyond its bounds.
I do see your point...and it's a good one. At the same time, I feel like we truly underestimate the "created"...meaning human nature and what it's really meant to demonstrate via a human spirit's relationship with the Uncreated Holy Spirit. Jesus, being the Word incarnated into humanity, showed us what being fully human really means. And theosis, in part, deals with the implications of that beautiful truth.
It doesn't seem to me that we are disagreeing at all, Joe. 
Great "iron-sharpening"!
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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