 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > Trinity as "Eternal Love Song": Hey...Why Not? | Forum Quick Jump
|
|  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/10/2008 11:18 AM (GMT -6) |   | Jeff: So EO would say that Christ's perfection in right-relating was due to the Holy Spirit? Whereas his human limits in perspective were due to the limits in the capacities of the human spirit?
My understanding...
Christ's human perfection was in his human spirit's natural relationship to God that was empowered and preserved by the Holy Spirit from the incarnational conception forward. Jesus, being the Incarnation of God's Only-Begotten Son, had the Father's Spirit as his natural "inheritance" from conception because "Mary's Baby" was the Incarnated Son of God who has the Holy Spirit naturally "resting" in his divine personal being. Subsequently, the natural human "logos" in Jesus was never fragmented and/or perverted. No emergence of gnomic will.
Christ, as a human being, always had the Holy Spirit "resting" in him naturally.
All other humans achieve that "Sabbath rest" by grace through faith, like Mary, the Theotokos.
Make sense?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
| | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/10/2008 11:24 AM (GMT -6) |   | Jeff: What is a gnomic will?
Wiki's on point here, I think...
Gnomic Will
The notion of 'gnomic will' belongs to Eastern Orthodox ascetical theology, being developed particularly within the theology of St Maximus the Confessor. The term 'gnomic' derives from the Greek gnome, meaning 'inclination' or 'intention'. Within Orthodox theology, gnomic willing is contrasted with natural willing. Natural willing designates the free movement of a creature in accordance with the principle (logos) of its nature towards the fulfilment (telos, stasis) of its being. Gnomic willing, on the other hand, designates that form of willing in which a person engages in a process of deliberation culminating in a free choice.
Within the theology of St Maximus, which was upheld by the Sixth Ecumenical Council, Jesus Christ possessed no gnomic will. St Maximus developed this claim particularly in his Dialogue with Pyrrhus. According to St Maximus, the process of gnomic willing presupposes that a person does not know what they want, and so must deliberate and choose between a range of alternatives. However, Jesus Christ, as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity was omniscient. Therefore, St Maximus reasoned, Christ was never in a state of ignorance regarding what he wanted, and so never engaged in gnomic willing.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/10/2008 11:27 AM (GMT -6) |   | In Greg's terms, it's when we, through exercising choice, "self-dispose" ourselves against our "eschatological essence."
Jesus never did that.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/10/2008 11:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | Make sense, Corey? Bruce?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/10/2008 11:33 AM (GMT -6) |   | Possibly helpful thought.
Gnomic will living <=> Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil
Natural will living <=> Tree of Life
It just popped in my head. But I think it helps...right?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 5/10/2008 11:34 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Mentioned above is the phrase "spirit of Jesus." Correctly or incorrectly I'm going to jump to the conclusion that this ia part of a tricotomy of spirit/soul/body, as has been discussed before. Remember, I'm looking for an excuse to post something that I'm betting will clarify or correct some assumptions -- without appearing as though I think I'm actually knowledgable!
What follows is scanned from Paul Evdokimov's book (part of a dipych of two books) "The Sacrament of Love" by SVPress.
(pp.50-52)
The Philanthropy of God
At the request of a pagan who asked him, "Show me thy God," Theophilus of Antioch replies, "Show me yourself, and I will show you my God."1 He means that man, "created in the image of God," reflects the divine mystery and that the two are unutterable. When God fashioned the man Adam, "He considered the Christ-man, the Christ who was one day supposed to be what was now this clay and this flesh."2 The profound reason for the Incarnation does not come from man, but from God, from His desire to become Man and to make of humanity a Theophany, the beloved ground of His presence. The liturgical sense understands this superbly and calls God the philanthropist, the lover of man. His love is outstretched toward the highest degree of communion; with or without the Fall, God has created the world to become Man therein so that man could become "god by grace," a participant in the conditions of the divine life, the immortality and the chaste integrity of His being.
The Constitution of the Human Being: The Spirit and the Flesh
Scripture knows nothing of the Greek dualism of two sub¬stances in conflict, of the body being the prison of the soul.
It knows of only the moral struggle between the desire of the Creator and the desires of the creature, between the standard holiness and sin-perversion. The conflict between carnal man I (homo animates) and spiritual man (homo spirituals) takes place in the totality of the human being. An indivisible entity, an incarnated spirit, man essentially "participates in being," to such an extent that St Peter defines the goal of his life: "that you may become partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pt 1:4). As homo viator, in a "state of passage," he fulfills his resemblance, his affinity, with the divine, or indeed the demonic, through his participations; he leads the entire visible creation in one direction or the other.
The soul vivifies the body and makes of it a living flesh; the spirit spiritualizes the entire human being and makes of him a spiritual man. The spirit is not a third element—body, soul, spirit—but a qualifying principle. It expresses and manifests itself through the psychic and the corporeal by qualifying them in terms of its energies. Indeed, asceticism constitutes a vast culture, a true science whose aim it is to make the body and the soul transparent and submissive to the spiritual. By contrast, man can "quench the Spirit" (1 Th 5:19), cause the source of his life to dry up, have carnal thoughts and reduce himself to mere animal flesh, the flesh of the flood, the prey of hell.
The Biblical Concept of the Heart
The heart the Bible speaks of is not the same as the emotional center of the psychologists. The Jews thought with the heart. As a metaphysical center, it integrates all the faculties of the human being; reason, intuition, and the will are never strangers to the choices and sympathies of the heart (Reason and the reasons of the heart of which Pascal speaks). Radiat¬ing and penetrating everywhere, it is nevertheless hidden in its own mysterious depth. "Know thyself" is addressed above all to this secret heart: "Enter within thyself, and there find God, the angels, and the Kingdom," as spiritual men say. "Who can understand the heart?" Jeremiah asks, and He replies, "I, the Lord, search the mind and try the heart" (Jr 17:9-10). This means God can penetrate to the obscure sphere of the unconscious and the subconscious. St Peter speaks of the "hidden man of the heart" (homo cordis absconditus) ; it is at this unfathomable depth that the human self is found. Its mystery, in the likeness of God, is well indicated by the words of St Gregory of Nyssa: "Since the nature of our mind evades our knowledge, it has an accurate resemblance to the Superior Nature; in that it cannot be explored, it shows the character of the Incomprehensible/'3 To the hidden God, mysterious in His essence (Deus abscon-ditus') corresponds his "image" (homo absconditus).
"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Mt 6:21). Man is worth what the object of his love and the desires of his heart are worth. The "Jesus prayer," called the "prayer of the heart," makes of the heart the place of the perpetual presence of Christ. The Gospel and asceticism assign to the heart the hierarchical primacy in the structure of the human being; it colors this structure with its health or with its diseases. In contrast to Leonardo da Vinci, all knowledge is the offspring of a great love. "I love, therefore I am" (amo ergo sum) indicates an original intentionality, innate and as if magnetized. "Thou hast made us for thyself, and our heart is restless until it rests in thee," St Augustine confesses.4 "It is for thee alone that I live, speak and sing."5 "God has placed in the human heart the desire for Him,"8 whence comes this magnificent name that St Gregory gives to God, "Thou, whom my soul loveth."7
(o)Post Edited (plato's_playdough) : 5/10/2008 1:16:47 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/10/2008 11:35 AM (GMT -6) |   | No gnomic will means no development of a FALSE SELF, grown from masking shame and self-separation.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/10/2008 11:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | Bruce's stuff: The "Jesus prayer," called the "prayer of the heart," makes of the [human] heart the place of the perpetual presence of Christ.
YES!!!!!
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/10/2008 11:40 AM (GMT -6) |   | Now think about something...
If the very ground that was AROUND the Burning Bush was holy because of God's Presence in the Bush, such that Moses had to take off his footwear...
What does that mean for human beings with Christ's "perpetual presence" in them? How holy is their environment?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 5/10/2008 11:41 AM (GMT -6) |   |
"I am-in-I Am" said...Make sense, Corey? Bruce?
I'm staying entirely out of it.
My contribution is posted above i n B L U E, and in three-point type.
(o) Post Edited (plato's_playdough) : 5/10/2008 11:43:23 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/10/2008 11:42 AM (GMT -6) |   | That's cool.
Great post, though, B! 
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/10/2008 11:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | Bruce: The spirit is not a third element—body, soul, spirit—but a qualifying principle.
Kierkegaard said something this too. Postive "third" relationship. (Right, Corey?)
Also...
In Greek Patristic literature, it was a prevailing view that the state of human being as it exists in the natural environment includes the body, soul (including the dianoia as an analytical part of the soul), and spirit, which had never been dissociated from the Holy Spirit. Human spirit stands here for the nous (spiritual intellect, the organ of faith), linking the human person to its dynamic relationship to God and to the world. It is natural congeniality with God, which is articulated by the presence of the Holy Spirit in human being. But the Holy Spirit is the creator of both body and soul, whose unity forms a particular human person. The presence of the Holy Spirit in human constitution thus makes the human person open upward through it's calling to the Divine as its destiny. Without the Spirit, the Greek Fathers assert, the human being is incomplete and imprisoned through the conditions of the created nature. V. Lossky reaffirms this point by saying that "the distinction between person and nature reproduces in humanity the order of divine life, expressed by the dogma of the Trinity."
Alexei Nesteruk, Light from the East, page 266, note 33.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 5/10/2008 11:53:40 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/11/2008 10:18 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
From you, Bruce...
http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/byzantine_theology_j_meyendorf.htm
In Maximian thought, man occupies quite an exceptional position among the other creatures. He not only carries in himself a Logos; he is the image of the divine Logos, and the purpose of his nature is to acquire similitude with God. In creation as a whole, man’s role is to unify all things in God and thus to overcome the evil powers of separation, division, disintegration, and death. The "natural," God-established "movement," "energy," or will of man is therefore directed toward communion with God, "deification," not in isolation from the entire creation, but leading it back to its original state.
One could understand at this point why Maximus felt so strongly that both Monoenergism and Monotheletism betrayed the Chalcedonian affirmation that Christ was fully man. There cannot be a true humanity if there is no natural, authentic human will or "movement."
But if the human will is nothing but a movement of nature, is there a place for human freedom? And how can the Fall and man’s revolt against God be explained? These questions to which Origen gave such great importance find in Maximus a new answer. Already in Gregory of Nyssa, true human freedom does not consist in autonomous human life but in the situation, which is truly natural to man’s communion with God. When man is isolated from God, he finds himself enslaved — to his passions, to himself, and ultimately to Satan. Therefore, for Maximus, when man follows his natural will, which presupposes life in God, God’s co-operation, and communion, he is truly free. But man also possesses another potential, determined not by his nature, but by each human person, or hypostasis, the freedom of choice, of revolt, of movement against nature, and therefore of self-destruction. This personal freedom was used by Adam and Eve after the Fall in separation from God and from true knowledge ¾ from all the assurance secured by "natural" existence. It implies hesitation, wandering, and suffering; this is the gnomic will (gnomĕ opinion), a function of the hypostatic or personal life, not of nature.
In Christ, human nature is united with the hypostasis of the Logos and while remaining fully itself is liberated from sin, the source of which is the gnomic will. Because it is "en-hypostasized" in Logos Himself, Christ’s humanity is perfect humanity. In the mysterious process, which started with His conception in the Virgin’s womb, Jesus passed through natural growth, ignorance, suffering, and even death — all of experiences of the fallen humanity, which He had come to save, and He fulfilled through the resurrection the ultimate human destiny. Christ could thus be truly the saviour of humanity because in Him there could never be any contradiction between natural will and gnomic will. Through the hypostatic union, His human will, precisely because it always conforms itself to the divine, also performs the "natural movement" of human nature.
The doctrine of "deification" in Maximus is based upon the fundamental patristic presupposition that communion with God does not diminish or destroy humanity but makes it fully human. In Christ the hypostatic union the communication of idioms (perichõresis tõn idiõmatõn). The characteristics of divinity and humanity express themselves "in communion with each other" (Chalcedonian definition), and human actions, "energies," have God Himself as their personal agent. Therefore, it can be said that "God was born," that Mary is the Theotokos, and that the "Logos was crucified" while birth and death remain purely human realities. But it can and must also be said that a man rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father having acquired characteristics, which "naturally" belong to God alone: immortality and glory. Through Christ’s humanity deified according to its hypostatic union with the Logos, all members of the Body of Christ have access to "deification" by grace through the operation of the Spirit in Christ’s Church.
The essential elements of Maximian Christology provided the permanent terminological and philosophical framework for Byzantine thought and spirituality. They were adopted with the Trinitarian doctrine of the great Cappadocian Fathers together in the Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith of John of Damascus (first half of the eighth century), which served as a standard doctrinal textbook in Byzantium. They also provided the most authoritative frame of reference in most of the doctrinal controversies, which arose in the East during the Middle Ages.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 5/12/2008 12:53 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Similtude said... I think I follow you. But what is a "gnomic" will?
It's not (I think) another "part" of a person. Gnomic is more like "red" in red car.
Look at this footnote by Hopko in "On God and Evil":
St. Maximos the Confessor was mutilated for insisting that Christ, having divine and human natures, wills, energies and operations, had no "gnomic will," which is to say that he never made choices based on deliberations since he possessed perfect freedom in his perfect union with God the Father (a condition which is also theoretically possible to "mere human beings" by faith and grace.) The Sixth Ecumenical Council confirmed this doctrine.
Let's look at the part about "making choices based on deliberations."
We will look at it in something I wrote last night for a different purpose -- I'm snatching from this website:
Here's the snatched quotes reworked to make them more usable:
Compare these two categories of will employed by Damascus: (1) The “natural will is associated with "wanting”. . .the natural will comprises the perfection of nature.” (2) an “opinionated will” is distinguished by the ignorance of a thing, by the doubt and and wavering in the end incapability of selection. One can see parallels to Augustine’s “knowledge of its goodness” in the converse lack of knowing that the trap of the opinionated will. Vlathos summarizes: “the opinionated will comprises the imperfection of nature, since it presupposes a person who does not have knowledge of the truth, is not certain about what he must decide.” Mary, though fearful did not hesitate to decide, and neither did her son.
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 5/12/2008 12:58:07 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/12/2008 1:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hopko: St. Maximos the Confessor was mutilated for insisting that Christ, having divine and human natures, wills, energies and operations, had no "gnomic will," which is to say that he never made choices based on deliberations since he possessed perfect freedom in his perfect union with God the Father (a condition which is also theoretically possible to "mere human beings" by faith and grace.) The Sixth Ecumenical Council confirmed this doctrine.
The Impossible Possibility.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/13/2008 8:28 AM (GMT -6) |   | 1) Tom. Love the new quote in your signature.
2) Bruce. The "gnomic will" is ACCIDENTAL to human nature, not essential, right? Jesus shows this. So... What happens when the gnomic will is "dissipated" because of the human hypostasis' integration into their "logos" (virtue, which is inseparable from God the Logos)? What happens when the "opinionated will" effectively stops working in the human being?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/13/2008 9:42 AM (GMT -6) |   | Back that up.
Isn't the "false, broken self" ("darkened mind", the faulty self-identification, etc) a product of the "gnomic will"?
No more gnomic will...no more "false self"
"Death to self" is death to the fallen self...which is grounded in the opinionated/gnomic will.
Right, Bruce?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 5/13/2008 11:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | If the whole solidification of our characters and nature into godliness and love is true, then I agree that would rule out our continuing to "deliberate" with regard to goodness. What else would solidification be? Right. But just HOW this occurs (for those of us who interpret deification in 'realist' terms [as opposed to merely metaphorical terms]) or what grounds it metaphysically is a bit more difficult to say. Glorification would seem to culminate the process (at least with regard to movement away from God). I'm open.
But I'm not sure the capacity to deliberate is itself a bad thing or that there can be no role for it post-glorification. With respect to our loving, yeah, we won't be deliberating that. But I'm not sure there can't be any role for the gnomic will where equally loving options are before us and God leaves us to resolve the options (my whole point for months). I don't really care what one 'calls' it. It's the end state I'm concerned about. The important question for me is what the relationship is between the 'gnomic' will/capacity and libertarian freedom per se, because I want to attribute the latter to God as well as to us (even if not with regard to good/evil).
Ran accross an interesting quote by Barth: "We must divest ourselves of the idea that limitation implies something derogatory or even a kind of curse or affliction." And Russell (summarizing Barth): "Far from finding our true identity in an ascent to something more than human, it is our very finitude that provides us with the necessary conditions for our highest fulfillment....It is this conviction that a personal relationship with God must entail our finitude that lies behind the frequently repeated statement: 'Our destiny is not that we might be made divine but rather that we might at last become truly human'. Without the particularity of finitude we are not free to love God or to be loved by him."
This is my problem with Lossky's calling the gnomic will itself something "fallen" that needs to be "fixed." If it's necessary for our becoming what God intends, the the gnomic will is a GOOD thing in and of itself, even if it also occasions the possibility of evil. In the end we may solidify OUT of the gnomic capacity with regard to good/evil, but that's not to say all libertarian free choice evaporates in the eschaton. In other words, libertarian chioce isn't reduced to the choice between good and evil. It also applies to the choice between equal goods, God's choice to create for example. I'm not sure God even thinks discursively anyhow, so it's difficult for us to really say HOW God 'makes contingent decisions'. I just don't want the absence of a gnomic capacity in us to be equated with the lack of freedom to self-determine CREATIVELY in love.
Tom
“God rests when each being, having obtained the divine energy in due measure, will determine its own natural energy with respect to God.” MaximusPost Edited (Tom) : 5/14/2008 1:00:55 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 5/13/2008 5:08 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Tom said... This is my problem with Lossky's calling the gnomic will itself something "fallen" that needs to be "fixed." If it's necessary for our becoming what God intends, the the gnomic will is a GOOD thing in and of itself, even if it also occasions the possibility of evil. In the end we may solidify OUT of the gnomic capacity with regard to good/evil, but that's not to say all libertarian free choice evaporates in the eschaton. In other words, libertarian chioce isn't reduced to the choice between good and evil. It also applies to the choice between equal goods, God's choice to create for example. I'm not sure God even thinks discursively anyhow, so it's difficult for us to really say HOW God 'makes contingent decisions'. I just don't want the absence of a gnomic capacity in us to be equated with the lack of freedom to self-determine CREATIVELY in love.
I'll come back to this.
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/13/2008 9:26 PM (GMT -6) |   | Thought:
Gnomic will <=> faulty self-understanding based upon "unbelief" and "ignorant self-love" (Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil)
Christ had no faulty self-understanding based upon "unbelief" or "ignorant self-love" because he was the Incarnate Logos.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
| | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/15/2008 6:45 AM (GMT -6) |   | Let me say it like this. Eve was not made already having "theosis". Neither was Adam. Eve had the "freedom" to destroy her true freedom by using her hypostatic use of will (tropos) choosing against the fullness of her "eschatological essence" (logos) She was at the crossroads of the "dizziness of freedom" (SK). She had the power to "doubt" and "misconstrue" God's words and God's wisdom in her deliberation between what she felt was in her best interests and what may have been in God's best interests. If her heart was already solidified in her human "logos", there wouldn't even be a deliberation to eat the fruit of the TOKGE at all , for totally dedicated obedience/worship to God would be the main ground of her life.
What I'm saying is this: Living life by the "gnomic will" (as opposed to living "naturally" ) lends itself towards "unbelief" (where one does not have loving trust in God and his commands) and "ignorant self-love" (where a human...who is UNAWARE of their true oneness with others...falls into egoic solipsism makes a human being only relate to things with "themselves" [usually linked with aspects of personality expressed through a pariticular body] as the center of concern, as opposed to God being the absolute center of all concern).
Make sense?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 5/15/2008 7:03:27 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 5/15/2008 2:34 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
From Daniel Jones (“Synergy in Christ According to Saint Maximus the Confessor” [2005], my italics):
“The natural will presents possible courses of action to the hypostasis that then—in the personal mode of willing—chooses to employ the natural will toward an object that it [the natural will] is directed to. This precludes any form of determinism for a hypostasis, but the tripartite distinction of the will must be maintained: the will as the natural will, the will as the personal mode of willing, and the will as the object of the will. If Christ in Gethsemane and the Saints in the Eschaton are going to have true free-choice, then there must be alternate courses of action that are all equally good, all the while excluding the possibility of sinning.”
“The logoi of God define the type of movement we are to have in Heaven….”
“The movement of the Saints in the Eschaton according to the rational principles is defined by Maximus as an “ever-moving rest.”* This rest is a divine logoi of God’s nature and one of the logoi of man’s motion in Ever-Being: “He [God] rests when each being, having obtained the divine energy in due measure, will determine its own natural energy with respect to God (Maximus).”
"*The phrase “ever-moving rest” implies that “rest” is the fixity of one’s habit and obtaining the goal while the phrase “ever-moving” implies that man does not cease from choice even while fixed upon a certain good. Man therefore still retains the power of self-determination towards any particular good he would wish to enjoy in God."
----------------------
Precisely what I’ve been arguing all along. To be free in Christ—so far as our fulfilled existence in the eschaton is concerned—is to be confirmed (“at rest” or “fixed”) in love so far as our character is concerned but freely creative (“ever-moving”) so far as self-determination and personal expression are concerned. God determines us inasmuch as God “defines the type of movement” we are to have in heaven, but beyond that we determine ourselves within the ever-creative life of love. A truly divine-human free-for-all.
I agree it takes gnomic deliberation regarding good/evil to occasion any evil choice. And inasmuch as this capacity is necessary for us to become what God desires, the gnomic will MUST be viewed as a good and perfect gift from above, no questions asked. Essentially, this risk is a good thing. It ‘became’ warped and spoiled, but that’s not a strike against the gnomic will per se.
For me, the relevant question regarding the gnomic use of the will (and I suppose it’s more academic than anything) is whether we ought to think of the freely determined expression of love on the part of humans as involving any deliberation whatsoever, not with respect to whether good or evil is done, but with respect to the choice of creative expression. Ultimately the question is: Does (or May) creative expression involve deliberation of any kind? And should the answer necessarily be the same for divine vs human personal expression? And then I suppose, what’s the point of the question might be important to ask as well!
Tom “God rests when each being, having obtained the divine energy in due measure, will determine its own natural energy with respect to God.” Maximus | | Back to Top | | |
 | 688 posts in this thread. Viewing Page : | | Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 4:41 PM (GMT -6) There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads. In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3 dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|