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One Love
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   Posted 6/21/2008 10:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Holy of Holies
 
Question:
Where does the Holy of Holies lie for any given "Christified" human believer?
 
My thought:
The Omnipresent, Immanent Presence of the Spirit of Christ-the-Logos within them.
 
 
 
The Veil between humanity and God has has been forever rent by Christ.
 
Mark 15:37-38
With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.  The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.  And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died,  he said, "Surely this man was the Son of God!"
 
God's glory PERMEATES Creation like his Presence did the "Burning Bush."  The whole EARTH (in all it's earthiness) is FULL of God's glory.  And we beheld that glory in Christ...in the flesh!  And experience his Presence by the Spirit...in the flesh!  By God's Grace in humble faith, we KNOW this and LIVE in this...every present moment.
 
Does this make sense?
 
:-) 


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

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Tom
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   Posted 6/21/2008 11:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I just listened to an awesome lecture by David Bentley Hart. It's 2.5 MB, which is hard for me to send, but I'll see if I can find where I downloaded it.

I think the counterpart to the Holy of Holies, D, just IS the believer him/herself. Christ is the presence, but the Holy of Holies is WHERE that presence rests. And that's the believer. We don't disagree on that (just on what it means).

That veil is FOREVER rent. Awesome.

Tom
 
Here: Go to Ben Myers' blog: http://faith-theology.blogspot.com/

Check out his June 6 post, and download the free Hart lectures (if the link below doesn't work). It's the one entitled something like "Hidden and Manifest."

-------------------

Friday, 6 June 2008

<!-- Begin .post -->

Here and there

  • Some free mp3 lectures by Orthodox theologians, including one by David Bentley Hart (it’s free, but you have to add it to the shopping cart and go through the checkout before it will download). And speaking of Hart, it looks like his new book will be appearing soon. Thanks be to God. (Update: More mp3 lectures by Hart here and here.)

Post Edited (Tom) : 6/21/2008 11:44:46 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 6/21/2008 11:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Cool! I'll listen today!

Tom:
I think the counterpart to the Holy of Holies, D, just IS the believer him/herself. Christ is the presence, but the Holy of Holies is WHERE that presence rests. And that's the believer. We don't disagree on that (just on what it means).

The bibically-described human (non-divine) "heart" is the "where" that you are talking about, right? 
 
In other words, Christ-the-Logos (the Holy One) is "borne and born" in the human "heart" by grace through faith via the Holy Spirit.  (Calvin all the way back in this one...)
 
We'd agree on that.
 
The human "heart" is meant to be the "dwelling place" for God's Spirit. (See Scriptures in signature...)

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

Post Edited (Shekinah) : 6/21/2008 12:39:23 PM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/21/2008 1:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
I'LL TRY TO HELP... (BELOW)
 
 
Tom said...
I just listened to an awesome lecture by David Bentley Hart. It's 2.5 MB, which is hard for me to send, but I'll see if I can find where I downloaded it.

I think the counterpart to the Holy of Holies, D, just IS the believer him/herself. Christ is the presence, but the Holy of Holies is WHERE that presence rests. And that's the believer. We don't disagree on that (just on what it means).

That veil is FOREVER rent. Awesome.

Tom
 
Here: Go to Ben Myers' blog: http://faith-theology.blogspot.com/

Check out his June 6 post, and download the free Hart lectures (if the link below doesn't work). It's the one entitled something like "Hidden and Manifest."

-------------------

Friday, 6 June 2008

<!-- Begin .post -->

Here and there

  • Some free mp3 lectures by Orthodox theologians, including one by David Bentley Hart (it’s free, but you have to add it to the shopping cart and go through the checkout before it will download). And speaking of Hart, it looks like his new book will be appearing soon. Thanks be to God. (Update: More mp3 lectures by Hart here and here.)
 
 
Hunting.....
download      

For the first time, select lectures given during the St Vladimir's Seminary Liturgical Institute of Music and Pastoral Practice (commonly referred to as the Summer Institute) are being made available for download in MP3 format by SVS Press and Bookstore.

 Every summer since 1978, the seminary has invited Orthodox faithful to spend a week on campus studying their faith and liturgical practice. This year's theme "A Christian Ending to our Life: The Mystery of Death" entered into the heart of our Christian life and touched each participant.

One satisfied participant who has attended for many years said, "It was a great topic and what I learned here has had a profound effect on my life. In fact, I now think that it is the best topic in recent years since it applies to every single one of us."

Reflecting on what the summer institute offered this year, another participant said, "I think that our society seems to not want to face real death by having sterile funeral homes or by trivializing it in never-ending murder mystery TV shows. All the gifted speakers helped us look at a difficult but necessary topic from many different angles."

Seminary faculty and staff members made up the majority of the speakers during the last week of June including Fr John Behr, Fr Steven Belonick, Fr Paul Tarazi, Dr John Barnet, Dr Paul Meyendorff, Dr Peter Bouteneff, Dn Kevin Smith, Mr Mark Bailey, and Mrs Helen Erickson.  Visiting speakers included SVS alumni, Fr Sergei Glagolev and Fr John Garvey, along with Dr David Bentley Hart, Dr Lila Kalinich, and Board of Trustees member Mrs. Anne Mackoul.  The Institute culminated in the celebration of the Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, at which His Beatitude, Metropolitan Herman, presided.

Recordings can be downloaded free of charge in the popular MP3 format from www.svspress.com.

 

 i probably have it in my files, if anyone wants me to email it to them.  -pow-

An End to All Endings [MP3] [MP3-ENALHA]
Dr David Bently Hart
An End to All Endings [MP3]
Click to enlarge

Dr David Bently Hart discusses a variety of end-of-life issues in his talk “An End to All Endings,” delivered at the 2006 St Vladimir’s Seminary Summer Liturgical Institute.

This lecture is presented as a free download. Once you add this item to your shopping cart and checkout, you will be given a link to download this audio file in MP3 format. There is no cost for this item. You may listen on your personal computer, download to an iPod or other similar device, or burn it to a CD for your personal use.




Price: US $0.00

Available Options:
Download: <select name=id[3]>


(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 6/21/2008 1:37:05 PM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/21/2008 1:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

From Tom's post above...

 

http://www.svspress.com/advanced_search_result.php?

 

http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?products_id=3106

 

http://www.calvin.edu/faith/discipleship/fac_events/2007-2008/A14420-Hart-Hidden%20Manifest%20God.mp3

 

http://www.maclaurin.org/mp3_search.php?keyword=hart


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/21/2008 1:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Calvin College site -- the other link didn't work......

November 5, 2007
 

David Bentley Hart
Visiting Professor of Theology, Providence College
The Hidden and the Manifest: God and 'Being'
(with special reference to Augustine and Gregory of Nyssa)

Meeter Center Lecture Hall - 3:30-5:00 pm
Listen to the Lecture (mp3 file)

David Hart is an Eastern orthodox theologian and author of the books The Beauty of the Infinite: the Aesthetics of Christian Truth (Eerdmans 2003) and The Doors of the Sea: Where Was God in the Tsunami? (Eerdmans 2005). His work offers a powerful and deeply learned statement of Christian truth that draws on the Eastern Orthodox tradition while engaging modern and post-modern critics of Christianity. Hart develops his understanding of beauty within a dogmatic context, considering the doctrines of the Trinity, creation, salvation, and the eschaton.
Read Dean of the Chapel Laura Smit's Review of Beauty of the Infinite
Read
William C. Placher's Review of Beauty of the Infinite



(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 6/21/2008 1:44:52 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 6/21/2008 3:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: I think the counterpart to the Holy of Holies, D, just IS the believer him/herself. Christ is the presence, but the Holy of Holies is WHERE that presence rests. And that's the believer. We don't disagree on that (just on what it means).

D: The bibically-described human (non-divine) "heart" is the "where" that you are talking about, right?

Tom: With qualifications, yes. But I think you want to locate that "where" constitutionally in what the fulfilled human being 'is'. I prefer to locate it functionally in what we 'do'. And for me that 'doing' or 'functioning' is each person's "freely and creatively shaping the form of his/her loving expression in relationship to God." That's more a 'relational' ontology to me. So each of us as a 'holy of holies' is an event of interpersonal address and response, and where the responses are (forever) determined by the respective persons in relation. I think that's a bit different than how you view things.

D: In other words, Christ-the-Logos (the Holy One) is "borne and born" in the human "heart" by grace through faith via the Holy Spirit. (Calvin all the way back in this one...). We'd agree on that.

Tom: "By grace through faith" is biblical language. I won't disagree. And Christ indwells us, certainly. No disagreeing there. The question is to what ends? Christ dwells in us, yes. But in saying just that we haven't said all there is to say about God's purposes for creating us.

D: The human "heart" is meant to be the "dwelling place" for God's Spirit.

Tom: If you'll permit the dwelling place to be more than JUST a 'recepticle', a thing utterly 'used' and 'determined' by whatever resides in it. That's the idea that "dwelling place" conjures up in my mind. It captrues part of the picture but misses other indespensible aspects. The heart is endowed and empowered to freely determine itself in love. It is in THIS that God is ultimately seen in creation (IMO). Old Testament 'place' gives way to 'people'. 'Impersonal type' (sanctuary, temple cult, etc.) gives way to 'interpersonal fulfillment'.

I just posted Hart's stuff because he had some very interesting things to say, two that I remember are: 1) The popular characterization of the West as beginning with the 'essence' and then moving on to 'persons' and the East's beginning with the plurality of the 'persons' and moving on to the unity is, Hart says, "impossible to prove" (and in his view completely wrong; it's refreshing/challenging to hear an Orthodox theologian praise Augustine and Aquinas), and then 2) Hart's dismissal (you judge if that's the right word) of Palamas' treatment of the essence/energies distinction. He doesn't deny a general distinction, true, but he does seem to dismiss Palamas' highly speculative ideas.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I don't know that much. But I was a bit surprised by his comments.

Tom

Post Edited (Tom) : 6/22/2008 4:17:16 AM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/21/2008 3:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

HERE is Calvin College's "Dean of the Chapel's" review of Hart's book, The Beauty of the Infinite: The Aesthetics of Christian Truth

http://laurasmit.com/downloads/Hart%20Review.pdf

 

 

 


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Tom
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   Posted 6/21/2008 4:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
David Bentley Hart
Visiting Professor of Theology, Providence College
The Hidden and the Manifest: God and 'Being'
(with special reference to Augustine and Gregory of Nyssa)

Meeter Center Lecture Hall - 3:30-5:00 pm
Listen to the Lecture (mp3 file)

--------------------

That's the lecture. You have to find a quiet place to listen to it. It's not a Sunday School lesson. Heavy stuff.

T
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/21/2008 11:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wow, Tom, that was great.
 


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Sahid
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   Posted 6/22/2008 4:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for the Hart link. If you liked that you've got to read Girard.

(Actually, I think I was listening to one of the others - about death.)


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

Post Edited (Sahid) : 6/22/2008 4:49:42 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 6/22/2008 7:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bruce,

I got the "Light from the Christian East" book.  I've been reading it...

Whoa, Nelly! ;-)
 
I'm lookin at what Payton has to say about the "personal/gnomic" will in the human being...and how Jesus doesn't have a personal will (not NATURAL will) distinct from the personal will of God the Son.  Good stuff.

From what I gather, Payton, Loder, and Kierkegaard agree on this: the only true human freedom is the existential freedom to choose whether or not to abide in, with, and by God's eternal love.  In other words, human beings have the ability to apperceive reality and choose against their natural wills (the single-minded love for God) in a doomed attempt to ground their personhood in something OTHER than God. The outcome of this would be a human being trapped in the "biological hypostasis", not having the liberating power of the Holy Spirit to free them into genuine personhood, according to Zizy.  Loving God, loving self, and loving others unconditionally (basically living the Great Commandments) is our NATURAL way of being.  Our "logos".  As even GREG says, human beings have the freedom to destroy our TRUE freedom of living in our "eschatological essence" by choosing HOW we relate to God's love as the divine ground of our being.  (Check "Trinity and Process" )

We have the choice to be who we really are...or not.

As I'm understanding things, all this is linked with the PERSONAL use of the will.  Where the Incarnate Word could not fail to abide in, with, and by God's eternal love (because Christ Jesus' personal will did not and could not "obstruct" his natural human will, being the "superessential" divine person of God the Son)...other human beings CAN and HAVE FAILED in this!

What I also understand (just as I'm scanning) is that deification, in part at least, entails the Holy Spirit of Christ continually empowering the human being's personal/gnomic will to be "conformed" to Christ, such that that human being's personal/gnomic will is not "absorbed" into God the Son's divine personal will (being a fusion, not union)...but rather, the created personal/gnomic will, in all it's particularity and uniqueness, is purified and perfectly reflective of God the Son's divine PERSONAL "Father-reflecting" kenotic reality as that will freely, consciously responds to the Christ's Divine Presence via Christ's Holy Spirit in total dependence and love.  In Christ, God dwells in the believing "heart" and the believing "heart" dwells in God.

At least...this is what I'm seeing...


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

Post Edited (Shekinah) : 6/22/2008 9:12:23 AM (GMT-5)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 6/22/2008 9:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Those Calvin mp3's are showing up as "Page Not Found" Must-have-link.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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One Love
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   Posted 6/22/2008 9:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
44:00 - 46:00 on the Hart talk The Hidden and the Manifest: God and 'Being'

Hart...

"What they (the Fathers) talk about is seeing the Father reflected in the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit. How the Logos reveals the Father and thereby, really reveals God."

"The Father is immediately, fully convertible with his Logos. That really is God...not just an...analogy of God."


Hart talks about Cappadocians. Augustine. Two step process.

"First, they reflect upon what the Nicene-Constantinopolitan doctrine of the Trinity implies for the understanding of God's being within himself. And how God is...within his own infinity...his own eternity...an eternal act of self-knowledge, self-love, which is really also already relation to that knowledge. And then, in the second step, how we, through the work of the Holy Spirit, and being conformed to the Son, enter into that act of God's own knowledge as created mirrors, as it were, of the Logos. How the way we see God is we see God in the reflection of that Trinitarian light in ourselves and in others, and how we are perpetually changed...towards an ever-greater vision of that glory."

Great stuff.


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

Post Edited (Shekinah) : 6/22/2008 9:51:54 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 6/22/2008 10:04 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmm...
 
Does Loder agree with the whole "created mirrors of Christ-the-Logos" idea?  Lessee...
 
Let us now summarize the experiential appropriation of trinitarian life by way of the same three levels Torrance used to describe the emergence fo the doctrine of the Trinity. First, the spontaneous creative work of consciousness which is both autobiographical (involving the "I" ) and symbolically constructed (not merely awareness as shared with lower animals) is, as we have suggested, implicitly but not sufficiently perichoretic. It is already the bearer of despair. Second, intentional efforts to created a new frame of knowledge vis-a-vis any given situation or problem, as in Einstein's productive thought, approaches ever more profoundly, but still insufficiently, the perichoretic potential in the mind and self of the knower. Even great creative efforts do not elude despair. Third, for Kierkegaard, is the decisive level in which the Divine Presence is able, in turn, to indwell the self via the Holy Spirit. That is, the Holy Spirit generates an open-ended reality that replicates in human nature the Divine nature of the Trinity. Here the image indwells its Original and, at the same time, and because of that indwelling, becomes a reflection of it. The transparently grounded self is thus sustained as such by the Divine nature and at the same time is transcended by it as Original transcends image.
 
Knight's Move. "The Self's Experiential Appropriation of Trinitarian Life", pp.299-300
 
------------------------------
 
Hmmm...sure looks like similiarity to me. :-)


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

Post Edited (Shekinah) : 6/22/2008 10:09:20 AM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 6/22/2008 12:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: From what I gather, Payton, Loder, and Kierkegaard agree on this: the only true human freedom is the existential freedom to choose whether or not to abide in, with, and by God's eternal love.

Tom: It's hard to disagree with the language of "abiding" since it's biblical. But it sounds like for you this means the only 'self-determining' choice that glorified human beings make is the one choice not to choose anything but to surrender to God's utter determination of all the self's movements, so that 'resting' and 'abiding' means 'yielding to divine determination of the self' or to 'relinquish all self-determined manner of expression'. If that's the case, I guess I'll take Silas and you can have John Mark 'cause we ain't agreeing on that. smilewinkgrin

Tom
 
Back on base, in my own bed, safely!

Post Edited (Tom) : 6/22/2008 2:04:35 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 6/22/2008 1:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Payton (Light from the Christian East) quoting Clement of Alexandria from "Christ the Educator 1.26"...page 147.

Clement...

When we are baptized, we are enlightened; enlightened, we become adopted children; adopted as children, we are made complete; and becoming complete, we are made divine. It is written, "I have said, 'You are gods and all of you the sons of the Most High' [Ps 82:6; Jn 10:34]. This ceremony is often called 'free gift', 'enlightenment', 'perfection', and 'cleansing' -- 'cleansing', because by it we are completely purified of our sins; 'free gift,' because through it the punishments due to our sins are remitted; 'enlightenment,' since by it we behold the wonderful, holy light of salvation (that is, it enables us to see God clearly*); finally, we call it 'perfection,' since we need nothing else--for what else could anyone need who possesses the knowledge of God?"
 

* "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God."
 

I dig it.  How about you, Tom?
 
PS. Glad you made it home safely!  cheers


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

Post Edited (Shekinah) : 6/22/2008 2:06:27 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 6/22/2008 2:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I know this is making sense to you, Tom...

heh...


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

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Tom
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   Posted 6/22/2008 2:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I wouldn't agree with everything Clement says.

T
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One Love
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   Posted 6/22/2008 2:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
rotfl 
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One Love
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   Posted 6/22/2008 2:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What do you think about Hart's thoughts I posted?


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/22/2008 6:20 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BBBCanada said...
Those Calvin mp3's are showing up as "Page Not Found" Must-have-link.

THIS had to totally download BEFORE it would play:
 
 
AND, STRANGELY, you have to come back and click it again and again. It does not "catch" the first time...but it does BEGIN to download. After a while it will show progress on the bottom bar that it is downloading. Be persistent. Good luck.
 


(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 6/22/2008 6:24:02 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 6/23/2008 4:08 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

What’s so funny D?

 

Clement’s comments look like they promote a view of regenerational baptism, which I reject. And then there’s the use of Ps.82/Jn 10 for calling us “divine” which I think is bad exegesis. I agree of course that we NEED nothing else but God. Not sure why you underlined that. Do you think not needing anything other than God precludes our being free to determine ourselves ways not determined by God?

 

T

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Tom
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   Posted 6/23/2008 6:11 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I don’t think anything you posted of Hart contradicts what I’m saying, as is the case with any of the things Hart himself says about created uniqueness and freedom that I've posted before.

 

I’ll report the opening post of the “Vive la difference!” thread (3/3/08):

 

------------------------

 

More David Hart:

 

“…if divine agape is generous in another sense, if it is actually charitable by giving way to otherness, by desiring the other dearly enough to give in a way that liberates the other even as it ‘binds’ the other – by desiring the other, that is, as the very impulse of charity, and thereby relieving the other of any debt of pure and disinterested return – then the idea of the gift may yet prove resistant to too astringent an ethical purism…”

 

“…Love is capable of an epektasis toward the truly desirable, a stretching out that is not a backward speculative return to metaphysical identity or moral withdrawal into subjective probity, but a ‘return’ always to the outwardness of the gift, and ecstasy able to claim the other as beloved and desired in a trinitarian way: possession by way of dispassion, gratification of desire through the discover of another.”

 

“Honestly, it is difficult to be convinced by a discourse of difference and distance that attempts at the same time to be a discourse of Heracleitean flux, because there is no distance in the flux: all dimensions are consumed before they arise. This is the ‘totality’ in the aleatory: every moment of repetition is a singularity that entirely…contains the shape of the whole, a Leibnizian monad that is no longer in any meaningful sense a ‘perspective’ on the whole, because the whole is a sublime, unmediated, absolute presence. For Christian thought, on the other hand, true distance is given in an event, a motion, that is transcendent: a pure prolation in which all patterns are ‘anticipated’, in an infinitely fulfilled way that allows for every possibility…It is transcendence, the divine distance, with its analogical scope, that prevents presence from being totality, and this distance is the original ‘thematism’ – the transcendent act of music – that makes real difference possible…”

 

“One might best characterize the properly Christian understanding of being as polyphony or counterpoint: having received its theme of divine love from God, the true measure of being is expressed in the restoration of that theme, in the response that submits that theme to variation and offers it back in an indefinitely prolonged and varies response…forever complete and forever calling forth new intonations, new styles of accomplishment and response. The circular, ‘synthetic’, and pleromatic grandeur of the Hegelian [and the Dwaynian] infinite are equally dreary; but the Christian infinite, free of the mechanical hypotaxis of the one and the boring boisterousness of the other, yields a profuse and irreducible parataxis, a boundless flood of beauties, beyond synthesis, but utterly open to analogy, complexity, variations, and refrains.”

 

“…when I use the word ‘theme’ here, I mean it in its strictly musical sense, to indicate a phrase or motif, a point of departure, which is neither more true nor less complex than the series of variations to which it gives rise. The ‘theme’ of creation is the gift of the whole, committed to limitless possibilities, open to immeasurable ranges of divergence and convergence, consonance and dissonance (which always allows for the possibility of discord), and unpredictable modulations that at once restore and restate that theme. The theme is present in all its modifications, for once it is given it is recuperated throughout, not as a return of the Same but as gratitude, as a new giving of the gift, as what is remembered and as what, consequently, is invented.”

 

“Distance is the gift of trinitarian charity, address and response, regard and donation…”

 

“When I speak of creation as [divine] expression, however, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the question of the one and the many as such; the coincidence in Christian thought of the doctrines of the Trinity and of creation ex nihilo renders that question a matter of indifference…While it is certainly desirable to say that in creation no hard division can be drawn between essence and exposition, and even that within the trinitarian perichoresis God is never an indeterminate ground of pure divinity, prior to or apart from the utterance of his Word and breathing forth of his Spirit; still God and world do not constitute between them a single order of content and explication, and so one can properly speak only of ‘analogical expression’ [for Dwayne].”

 

“Precisely because God does not come to or discover or achieve himself in and through creation but simply declares his glory therein, we find God in and through creation as the generous source and end whose goodness shines upon the surface of every sign. It is this (to Deleuze) contradictory notion of a transcendent origination of being’s expressivity that allows for real difference, a real ‘digressionism’…”

 

“An ‘expression’ bound entirely to its own immanent force expresses nothing but its own expression [Dwayne] – expresses, that is, precisely nothing, repeats nothing. True expression, though…is possible only if there is that movement that allows it to differ, to be at once a new word and an act of disclosure. There must be an original difference that precedes each finite utterance, that frees each word from every ‘ground’…

 

[Tom’s Note: I see NO way to ground the “difference” in creative expression, the “address and response” between creator and creature, the “unpredictability” and “display of inventive creativity” that shall define fully realized creaturely existence of which Hart speaks except in the creature’s free determination in “elaborating” upon the divine “themes” that God provides. They’re one and the same.]

 

And my favorite:

 

“It may be so, as Michel de Certeau asserts, that Christ offers ‘a style of existence that ‘allows’ for a certain kind of creativity and that opens a new series of experiences’….”

 

[Certeau’s article is in French so I can’t read it. But given the context, my guess is that he views our true ‘self’, our ‘logos’, as the gift of creative capacities to interpret the divine themes of love, not specific determinations minutely prescribed. The divine themes are GIVEN as gift by God and then received back from us as gratitude precisely IN THE DIFFERENCE which our freely determined elaborations and renditions upon those themes constitute. Thus it is in the difference which we determine that we are in fact different from God in the only really important sense at all, personally distinct from God. So our gifts to God throughout eternity are not the blank slate of our volition void of self-expression and offered to God as the mere instrumentation for divine will (the sort Hart criticizes). Our gift to God is our renditions of the gift of his themes. That’s the music he wants to hear.]

 

-----------------------

 

Yeah, I like Hart.

 

I remember POW dittoed that final comment (“Our gift to God is our renditions of the gift of his themes”). D objected to all of it with “Jesus is my benchmark.” But now that I expressed (and D almost shed tears of joy over it?) a sense in which God “let’s us go” sufficient to account for the DIFFERENCE between Jesus and us, nothing about Jesus’ example as “benchmark” negates the unique freedom and personal distinction from God which God intends for us but which does NOT characterize Jesus.

 

T

Post Edited (Tom) : 6/23/2008 6:54:27 AM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/23/2008 6:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In light of Lossky, Zizzy, and Payton, you all will want to listen to this on the Holy Spirit, by Hopko.
 

The Holy Spirit

Posted Monday, June 16, 2008

Play The day after Pentecost is the Feast of the Holy Spirit in the Orthodox Church and Fr. Thomas uses it to examine more closely the "Sprit who proceeds from the Father."

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko


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