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Tom
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   Posted 7/1/2008 1:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

D, what if I told you that I was considering a thesis that explored Gregory of Nyssa’s (GN) doctrine of ‘epektasis’ ('stretching out' or the ‘constant progress’ into the Divine) and, in conversation with Origen’s eschatology (and emphasis upon human freedom), used it to inform/construct an indeterminist model of theosis, in which the creature's 'freely determined creative expression of love' is the 'participation in God' (metousia theou) we are intended for? 

 

Gotta get my Greek in shape. But I wanna swim a bit in GN’s works. We'll see. But every time I run into discussions of this Gregory I find myself responding positively, more so than others.

 

Cool?

 

T

Post Edited (Tom) : 7/1/2008 3:17:28 PM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/1/2008 3:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

From a Reformed writer: 

http://members.shaw.ca/jgfriesen/Mainheadings/Ecumenism.pdf

Kuyper, Dooyeweerd and the Quest for an Ecumenical Orthodoxy, by Dr. J. Glenn Friesen, Lecture at Redeemer University College, Ancaster Ontario, November 15, 2005

(Note--Payton teaches at Redeemer!)

QUOTE: 

XVI Epektasis

Epektasis is a term used by Gregory of Nyssa to refer to the drawing of the soul ever onwards (Phil. 3:13). Dooyeweerd does not use this word, but he does refer to the supratemporal as dynamic, and to the idea of supratemporal fulfillment. See notes at

[http://www.members.shaw.ca/jgfriesen/Definitions/Epektasis.html].


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/1/2008 3:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Quote from a Google, "St. Gregory of Nyssa believed that even in heaven perfection is growth."
 
Back in the day... G. Boyd used to think that the early church fathers held to a static view. (Glad to see that addressed.)
 
B.


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/1/2008 3:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Get anything you can by George(s) Mantzaridis. (teaches in Athens, and has at least two books published by St. Vlads press that I have on my bookshelf)


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/1/2008 3:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Monday, September 12, 2005
From Time and Man

"When the timeless God comes into the World, he makes an unprecedented incision into time and history, and lays the foundations of a qualitatively different age. The whole of human history was a period of preparation for the coming of Christ." - Georgios I. Mantzaridis from Time and Man
http://orthodoxstuff.blogspot.com/2005/09/from-time-and-man.html


(o)

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One Love
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   Posted 7/1/2008 4:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Gregory of Nyssa was a mystic. Sure you want to mess with those wacky people? ;-)

Gregory of Nyssa's 5 Homilies on the Lord's Prayer


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

Post Edited (Shekinah) : 7/1/2008 4:36:27 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 7/1/2008 4:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
After I'm through with him there won't be much to recognize.

The "timeless" nonsense will have to go, but I think there's enough to salvage after that. ;o)

T
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/1/2008 5:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You don't see the symmetry between the summary statemtent "even in heaven perfection is growth" and the comment "When the timeless God comes into the World, he makes an unprecedented incision into time and history, and lays the foundations of a qualitatively different age."?

If not, the "timeless" notion you discard with not be the one GN expouses; so you will be just fine discarding it anyways--but you will do so centuries after GN did.

My son dismantled an old VCR. He kept it around for a while; but eventually pitched the whole thing, as even the coolest parts become boring outside of their context, eventually.


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/1/2008 10:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for sharing, Tom.

Keep us informed.


(o)

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Tom
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   Posted 7/2/2008 3:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I was attempting to poke you a little in the side with the “nonsense” statement. I know how you like timelessness. ;o)

 

Hopefully I’ll find out along the way just what “timeless” in your “timeless God makes an incision into time” really means and how that differs from “timeless” in the “timeless God” I want to discard centuries after GN did. Hmmm. For me, temporal and atemporal are opposites that don’t admit a third member. I want to say God is eternally temporal (i.e., has a past, present, and future). You say this locks God inside of time. I say (with Jensen) that it doesn’t lock God inside of anything. I say, What then if not temporal? Timeless? You say, ‘Well, no, not timeless. But not temporal either.’ What then? You don’t want to lock God inside of time and you don’t want to lock him outside of time. You want the benefits of both but refuse to embrace the consequences of either.

 

GN’s idea of epektasis (the notion that our destined perfection is a dynamic and endless exploration and unfolding of the divine life) requires a God who makes an unprecedented incision into creation, yes. But I don’t see that it has to be the case that this God be anything other than temporal. But that’s beside the point that I’m interested in. I don’t plan on debating the question of time.

 

Tom

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/2/2008 6:42 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom said...

I was attempting to poke you a little in the side with the “nonsense” statement.

Yep. I knew that. Just wanted to hear more of your thoughts. Worked. Thanks.


(o)

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One Love
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   Posted 7/3/2008 8:48 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My thought:

In theosis, the human soul is "filled" with God and "satisfied" with "eternal life." The fullness of this "fulfilled" life is infinitely expressible without the possibility of being exhausted or exhaustible. One is "satisfied" in God...but ever "straining forward" to express the beauty of that satisfaction in new, free, creative ways...ever and on.

This actually goes well not only with EO (Ware, etc) but also with GREG'S METAPHYSIC. It demonstrates how we are in the image of God. Just like God is unsurpassably satisfied with the "infinitely intense" beautiful experience of his own self-relationality, and only EXPRESSES that unimaginable satisfaction infinitely in Creation in inexhaustible ways...so we also, once "satisfied" with our freely chosen relationship to our Divine Ground (Christ-the-Logos) and the "infinitely intense" FILIAL relationship with Trinity we have in that Ground, we have infinite possibility and potential to EXPRESS this "pearl of great price" in which we abide.

Make sense?


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

Post Edited (Shekinah) : 7/3/2008 8:59:33 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 7/3/2008 8:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ever-moving rest


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

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One Love
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   Posted 7/3/2008 8:56 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"God is most glorified in us, when we are most satisfied in Him"
--The "Piper"


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

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Tom
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   Posted 7/3/2008 3:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: The fullness of this "fulfilled" life is infinitely expressible without the possibility of being exhausted or exhaustible. One is "satisfied" in God...but ever "straining forward" to express the beauty of that satisfaction in new, free, creative ways...ever and on.

T: Hayell yes.

T
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/3/2008 3:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ditto.


(o)

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One Love
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   Posted 7/3/2008 8:01 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
biggrin
 
 
 


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

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