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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/18/2008 9:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | D: "Many divine energies" <=> "ONE whole fullness of divinity in each act" ONE LOVE. MANY EXPRESSIONS.
T: Divine energies. Fullness of deity in each act.
One question: Where are we? Where are the non-divine persons acting/doing and creatively expressing? I don't see them anywhere in your account of creation.
Oh, we're the "many expressions" of the "divine energies" which are "each a fullness of deity"? That's us in there? Ah, I see.
And you're not a monist when it comes to personal existence. Hmmmm. If you say so. 
Tom Post Edited (Tom) : 7/18/2008 9:25:59 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/18/2008 9:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Did you listen to it, Tom?
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/18/2008 9:43 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/18/2008 9:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Please.
LISTEN TO IT...and then see HOW INCOMPATIBLE it is with the "analogia entis" idea.
I'm asking that because I'm RIGHT ON with what Hopko says in there. Right on it.
I think it's completely compatible.
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/18/2008 9:49 AM (GMT -6) | | www.opentheismboard.org/pr.aspx?f=10&m=99698
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/18/2008 9:50 AM (GMT -6) | | "The unitive life is the last stage of mystical ascent. The mystic becomes as closely united to God through God’s love as God is unified to his own being by nature. Mystically married to God, the mystic becomes “God by participation.” Nonetheless, this union remains differentiated, that is, God and the mystic become one while remaining distinctly two. The mystic’s person does not dissolve into God. In fact, the more deeply united to God the mystic becomes, the more the mystic’s individuality is confirmed and enhanced."
We are NOT disagreeing as much as you THINK we are, Tom.
Really, man.
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/18/2008 9:57 AM (GMT -6) | | From here...
"Ironically, then, while the analogia entis has often been understood as the reduction of differences to some essential similarity (e.g. that God and creatures share in common something called “being”), Hart brilliantly reverses this line of thought, so that “the analogy of being finds truth in the ever greater particularity of each thing as it enters ever more into the infinite that gives it being” (p. 247). Or, to put it more sharply: the analogy of being describes the triumph of the infinite over every kind of totality."
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Freedom from "nature", right?
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/18/2008 10:16 AM (GMT -6) | | |
D: LISTEN TO IT...and then see HOW INCOMPATIBLE it is with the "analogia entis" idea. I'm asking that because I'm RIGHT ON with what Hopko says in there. Right on it. I think it's completely compatible.
Tom: You mean it's completely INcompatible, right? Which one? You say both.
Read Hart's chapter on the analogia entis in his BOI (Beauty of the Infinite). He even agrees with Augustine on the vestigia deo! It's crazy.
Ah, I see you found Hart mentioned over on Ben's site. Fine.
I do believe Hart could say things more simply. I admire William Barclay's emphasis upon simplicity. Hart, like SK, seems intent on being as inaccessible as possible! And Hart is sometimes mean. I guess when you're that famous you can be. But it doesn't endear me to him.
Tom Post Edited (Tom) : 7/18/2008 10:29:46 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/18/2008 10:21 AM (GMT -6) | | That's just the thing, Tom.
It's not crazy to me at all.
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/18/2008 10:28 AM (GMT -6) | | It seems to me that Kierkegaard's "Knight of Faith" is the human existential application of what Hart is saying. When the individual, in faith in the God-Human, Jesus, "comes forth".
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/18/2008 1:19 PM (GMT -6) | | As far as I believe I understand it...sure.
fireandrose.blogspot.com/2006/12/whos-afraid-of-analogia-entis_30.html
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/18/2008 1:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Sure agree with it or sure disagre with it?
Gosh!
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/18/2008 1:50 PM (GMT -6) | | OK, probably agree. But I had to guess from the links!
T | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/18/2008 2:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Yes, agree.
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/20/2008 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | |
Yep, it's right on target, complete, and clear.
What ever side one takes, listening to Hopko's talks is invaluable for your discussion.
Download and save them.
Shekinah said...Did you listen to it, Tom?
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/21/2008 1:54 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm reposting this because I'd still like an answer to my question there: Where are we?
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D: "Many divine energies" <=> "ONE whole fullness of divinity in each act" ONE LOVE. MANY EXPRESSIONS.
T: Divine energies. Fullness of deity in each act.
One question: Where are we? Where are the non-divine persons acting/doing and creatively expressing? I don't see them anywhere in your account of creation.
Oh, we're the "many expressions" of the "divine energies" which are "each a fullness of deity"? That's us in there?
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Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/21/2008 5:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
One question: Where are we? Where are the non-divine persons acting/doing and creatively expressing? I don't see them anywhere in your account of creation.
When we talk about "us", I'm assuming that we are talking about the emergent human soul or "self" (from brain/mind interaction) that is embodied (no gnostic separation there), but also transcends the body. (as shown by Libet's experiments.)
I think that our human non-divine emergent "selves" relate themselves to themselves (being selves), by CHOOSING to be themselves, cohere with the "lived worlds" in which their embodiment is essential. And in doing so, they can relate to the Divine Ground that "graces" them with existence. (All of this is in Kierkegaard and elaborated by Loder.)
In that, we can choose to relate to that Ground in GRATITUDE and PRAISE for giving us "selves" that we can "give back" to God as "living sacrifices".
We express gratitude for being created. We AT LEAST do that. (Fr. Hopko specifically mentions something about this in the talks. Listen when you have a chance!!)
If the only prayer you ever say in your entire life is thank you, it will be enough.
Meister Eckhart
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."
Post Edited (Shekinah) : 7/21/2008 6:07:06 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/21/2008 8:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Wow D. I'm lost. Dude, is it really that difficult?
You this this (which seemed to me to be a kind of summary statement of all reality):
"Many divine energies" <=> "ONE whole fullness of divinity in each act" ONE LOVE. MANY EXPRESSIONS.
When I ask, Where are we in all this? I mean, Where are the 'persons' we become in your summary statement? All you name are divine energies, in each of all the acts of which is the fullness of divinity and which all together are many expressions of one and the same love.
That's it?
SHOW ME US, the persons we become. I don't see non-divine persons in there. Are they in there somewhere?
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/21/2008 10:03 AM (GMT -6) | | | This...
"Many divine energies" <=> "ONE whole fullness of divinity in each act"
ONE LOVE. MANY EXPRESSIONS.
was stated in CONTEXT of Fr. Hopko's final talk. It's a paraphrase of something HE said in the talk.
Listen to it and you'll understand where I'm coming from. That's why I posted it.
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/21/2008 10:07 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/21/2008 10:21 AM (GMT -6) | | HERE'S THE LAST ONE...
How We Speak Of God - Part 4
Posted Monday, July 21, 2008
 In the final part of his series, Fr. Tom reflects on the metaphors and similes for God.
How We Speak Of God - Part 3
Posted Thursday, July 17, 2008
This time, Fr. Thomas speaks of the Activities and Actions of God.
How We Speak Of God - Part 2
Posted Monday, July 14, 2008
Fr. Tom continues his discussion, this time focusing on the Divine Attributes of God.
How We Speak Of God - Part 1
Posted Thursday, July 10, 2008
Fr. Thomas begins a four-part series on naming God and the language and words we use in the process.
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/21/2008 12:15 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't have time. So if you don't explain it D, it ain't happnin.
T | | Back to Top | | |
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