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PotOnWheel
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Posted 7/24/2008 11:52 PM (GMT -6)

H E R E 's T H E L A S T ...

Person, Nature And Action

Posted Thursday, July 24, 2008

As an epilogue to his series on the language of God, Fr. Tom explains these technical, theological, terms used by the Church.

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 7/24/2008 11:53 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks, Corey.

(o)

One Love
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Posted 7/25/2008 7:28 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
Show me where in the scenario Jessica manifested having been ‘inspired by me’? It’s not there. For me to inspire her means for her to be motivated by what I mean to her to creative expression. THAT is inspiration. But there’s none of that in the room. It’s all me.

When Jessica looks at her own uniquely-owned particular perspective in expression, she will (no doubt) see lots of things about herself that she will be able to "trace" back to YOU, her father. She's spent a lot of time with you and has, probably unbeknowst to her, taking in many of your values, beliefs, and cares into her OWN sense of self-reflection and self-relatedness. So, when ever she would create something, it would DEFINITELY be what she values, thinks, and believes that is expresses. It would just be that she realizes HOW MUCH those values, thoughts, and beliefs, freely held by her as they are, are "in unison" with yours as her father. All those "rules" that you had to put on her as a child in order to bring HER true self out...have been shown to her (and you) to be "written on her heart." Both you and her indwell the same virtues, but in irreducibly individually-experienced ways.

Her own self-discovery will lead her to see how much you have "inspired" her perspective-taking throughout the course of her life, up to now...but again, this would be internalized and expressed by NO ONE but her.

I'm hoping this clears up what I intended to say.

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

Post Edited (Shekinah) : 7/25/2008 7:31:03 AM (GMT-5)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 7/25/2008 8:51 AM (GMT -6)

I guess maybe this relates here too. You guy's decide.

Part of the created potentiality of our humanity is, that "by grace (we can) ...imitate, resemble, and participate in..." divinitys' traits.

Person, Nature And Action

Posted Thursday, July 24, 2008

As an epilogue to his series on the language of God, Fr. Tom explains these technical, theological, terms used by the Church.

We are human, but can "...imitate, resemble, and participate in..." divinity.

(o)

Tom
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Posted 7/25/2008 11:11 AM (GMT -6)

D: When Jessica looks at her own uniquely-owned particular perspective in expression, she will (no doubt) see lots of things about herself that she will be able to "trace" back to YOU, her father. She's spent a lot of time with you and has, probably unbeknowst to her, taking in many of your values, beliefs, and cares into her OWN sense of self-reflection and self-relatedness. So, when ever she would create something, it would DEFINITELY be what she values, thinks, and believes that is expresses. It would just be that she realizes HOW MUCH those values, thoughts, and beliefs, freely held by her as they are, are "in unison" with yours as her father. All those "rules" that you had to put on her as a child in order to bring HER true self out...have been shown to her (and you) to be "written on her heart." Both you and her indwell the same virtues, but in irreducibly individually-experienced ways.

T: Bro, dude. Please hear me. Nothing you said here is a matter of debate between us. Of course she’ll recognize my influence in her life in years to come, etc. We don’t disagree over this.

Here’s where we disagree. Spring-boarding off the bold part, you think that “having fully taken in God’s values into our own identity” (self-reflection and self-identity) precludes the sort of self-determining creative expression I’m fighting for. You do. Sure, for the sake of argument you want to grant that if this sort of creative self-determination is what I want, once glorified, God will grant it to me. But even this won’t work. You clearly believe that consciously choosing to abandon such ‘creative self-determination’ leads to a higher and more truly unified oneness with God. THAT’S WHY YOU WANT IT. But if you’re right, why would a God who designed us for optimum union with God concede to any creature an eternal form of existence which is less than what God designed us for? Why would God want that or allow it? No.

Neither of us can say “God gives us what WE want.” On the contrary, in the end God will have what GOD wants. God will work with us and teach us to want what he wants. I doubt you’ll disagree with that! What you and I disagree over is “what it is God wants.” I believe God wants us, once glorified, to creatively self-determine ourselves in love. You believe (I think) that God wants us, once glorified, to be creatively determined by God in ways that our unique histories make possible for him. It makes no sense to deny this and also argue, as you do, that the only self-determining choice we will make through all eternity is the choice to turn over to God the determination of everything else about us.

So on my view what we “take in from God” is God’s ‘way of being’, a ‘kind’ of personal existence and self-determining creativity, not the determinations of the divine will in the form of a blueprint for our every movement throughout eternity. In fact, as I understand God, his having any other goals in mind would be inconsistent of his nature. So I can’t agree with you that God will give us what we want if what we want is not to determine ourselves (apart from the offering our agency to God to determine).

Tom

One Love
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Posted 7/25/2008 4:49 PM (GMT -6)

Then I guess God can show us what he really wants...and then we accept it.

God knows my heart. God knows that I want to live by the truth of what really is. So God's very aware that I'm fine EITHER WAY...like I've said before. Whatever God wants is what I know that he will lead me into...whether to being largely determined by God...or towards more self-determining of expression...His Spirit will empower me to do it. And that's all I care about. I have the yearning to be as unified with God as he allows me to be...and I will let GOD HIMSELF decide that line...not me.

I'm sure God will let me know in prayer about this...

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

Tom
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Posted 7/26/2008 1:54 AM (GMT -6)

I love your heart, man. I also want to know the truth of the matter and live a life that's fully realized and truthful as God intends.

You're fine either way...but you have an opinion. You don't NOW think these are two equally 'unified' forms of divine-human relations. Like I said, that's why you want/aspire to one and not the other.

If it turns out as I suspect, that God's greatest joy in creation will be our being creative lovers like God, then you will have made with God's help whatever adjustment in opinion about the truth of reality you need in order to feel the same way THEN about union with God as you do NOW about the view you obviously prefer and expect. And if it turns out, as you suspect, that God's greatest joy in creation will come from our relinquishing creative self-determination and forever offering ourselves to God to be determined by him in ways our unique histories make possible, then God will have helped me to see the greater interpersonal beauty in that and I'll welcome it with you. I don't NOW prefer your view and you don't NOW prefer my view. But we each trust God and mistrust our own finite minds enough to know that we could be wrong but that God loves us and that whatever the truth turns out to be...it'll be a beauty and ecstasy beyond imagining, and we'll be all we can and were meant to be in Christ.

T

One Love
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Posted 7/26/2008 8:39 AM (GMT -6)

Exactamundo, Tom. biggrin

Come, Holy One!

Come, Sacred Heart of Hearts.

Our souls are crying out to You, Holy One...

And we know that you hear our longing cries...

Come, and dwell in us...right now...and every "now"

Let us live as thankful, loving people...in You.

Let us become. Let us be.

Come, Lord Jesus.

redface

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

Post Edited (Shekinah) : 7/26/2008 8:43:44 AM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 7/26/2008 8:48 AM (GMT -6)

It's a wrap.

We agreed to disagree.

Praise be to Allah.

T

Corey
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Posted 7/26/2008 8:49 AM (GMT -6)

Okay, guys. So we ARE speculating here? We're not speaking from a point of first-person (already experienced) knowledge? This is where I got shut down last time I engaged this conversation.

So I guess I'll venture out again, risking offense: I believe that none of us KNOW the options proposed; it all remains future speculation. When the eschaton obtains, I suspect we will all be surprised; I'm sure the answer is, "None of the above."

Basically, I think I'm just saying that we're all sinners. We all fall short of the glory, even in our speculations.

Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are.

One Love
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Posted 7/26/2008 8:55 AM (GMT -6)

It's a wrap.

We agreed to disagree.

Praise be to Allah.

1) Can you imagine the difference in Church History there would have been if people were actually able to lovingly COEXIST with different theological views? Maximus the Confessor had his hand and tongue CHOPPED OFF by the CHURCH for his beliefs. We already know about Calvin and Servetus. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could always disagree with love and respect intact. How much more of a witness that would be! :-)

2) Repost...

Both of us, with our differing theological perspectives/worldviews (effectively "worlds apart" ), are in bi-polar assymetrical relational unity with God's eternal love (and therefore with God Himself, through faith and grace) as continually "seen" and/or "experienced" in God the Son's Presence in our "hearts" via God the Holy Spirit within us. And in so being, we are in UNISON/ONENESS/UNITY with God, ourselves, each other, and, actually, Creation itself.

Our irreducibly distinct, unique, particular, personal "worlds" are brought into higher "unity without absorption"...via trinitarian experience in the ONE Father's "World" with the ONE Lord, Christ-the-Logos WITHIN US...via the ONE Holy Spirit of the ONE Divine Trinity.

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

Post Edited (Shekinah) : 7/26/2008 9:21:11 AM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 7/26/2008 8:59 AM (GMT -6)

Corey:
Okay, guys. So we ARE speculating here? We're not speaking from a point of first-person (already experienced) knowledge? This is where I got shut down last time I engaged this conversation.

So I guess I'll venture out again, risking offense: I believe that none of us KNOW the options proposed; it all remains future speculation. When the eschaton obtains, I suspect we will all be surprised; I'm sure the answer is, "None of the above."

Basically, I think I'm just saying that we're all sinners. We all fall short of the glory, even in our speculations.

My personal experience with God has been grounding everything I've been writing. I think I've been quite above board about all of that.

You guys KNOW me...and KNOW how much I've been changed by all this.

The reason WHY I took the time to type out so much of Egan's stuff on Christian mysticism is, in part, because it RINGS TRUE with what I've been experiencing.

That's the only place I can come from.

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

Post Edited (Shekinah) : 7/26/2008 9:06:40 AM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 7/26/2008 9:02 AM (GMT -6)

Tom,

You KNOW how much WE'VE talked...and you know how DEEP this has been for me.

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 7/26/2008 9:05 AM (GMT -6)

Corey:
I think I'm just saying that we're all sinners. We all fall short of the glory, even in our speculations.

In my opinion, the constant awareness of one's sin is a gift of the Holy Spirit that enables continual repentance. Like the super-sensitive eye that can detect a SPECK of dirt in order to have it more quickly removed. Humility before God is the ground law...which makes constant "guarding of the mind" a painful blessing.

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

Corey
Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893

Posted 7/26/2008 9:07 AM (GMT -6)

I believe that, really! I'm NOT challenging whether or not you've experience transformation. I'm not doubting the genuineness of what you experienced.

I'm trying to feel out the border between knowledge and speculation, that's all. You'd admit, wouldn't you, that at least some of this is speculative?

Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are.

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 7/26/2008 9:10 AM (GMT -6)

Corey:
I'm trying to feel out the border between knowledge and speculation, that's all. You'd admit, wouldn't you, that at least some of this is speculative?

Definitely. To me, it makes sense to work on the "knowledge of God in Christ" RIGHT NOW...see what that's like...and then just let God take it from there. After all, the eschata deals with CHRIST, whom we ALREADY have access to. Knowledge of Christ NOW will lead us into "foretasting" what will be.

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 7/26/2008 9:13 AM (GMT -6)

"Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

Corey
Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893

Posted 7/26/2008 9:14 AM (GMT -6)

Just because I'm kinda dense, could you spell it out for me, where the one ends and the other begins for you?

Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are.

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 7/26/2008 9:18 AM (GMT -6)

It's a "tangled hierarchy"...

the whole "Godel, Bach, Escher" thing.

Do you know what I'm trying to say with that?

Loder specifically talks about this with the process of human learning and discovery in Knight's Move.

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

Corey
Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893

Posted 7/26/2008 9:22 AM (GMT -6)

I've read that book ("Gödel, Escher, Bach", btw). I guess what you're saying is that it's not the sort of thing you can neatly delimit.

Could you try, albeit with disclaimers? What beliefs are conviction for you, and which are persuasions, and which are opinions (i.e. descending order of confidence.)

Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are.

Post Edited (Corey) : 7/26/2008 9:26:00 AM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 7/26/2008 9:24 AM (GMT -6)

EXACTLY, Corey!

What gets me is that the model of relationality purported REALLY DOES ALIGN with human experience...AMAZINGLY.

The "strange loop" of self-reference.

In "Knight's Move" Loder takes the "strange loop" motif...and demonstrates how it's damn near EVERYWHERE...including the process of human knowledge and human discovery! There's even an analogue to the Trinity he talks about (following Torrence).

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

Corey
Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893

Posted 7/26/2008 9:29 AM (GMT -6)

I Am a Strange Loop

An interview with Douglas R. Hofstadter about I am a Strange Loop.

Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are.

One Love
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Posted 7/26/2008 9:31 AM (GMT -6)

This is my chief conviction, around which I can see all of my faith journey centering.

God is a personal being who talks to me...and I can talk to Him. He tells me he loves me and created me. I listen and do what he wants because I believe he is God.

That has been the faith paradigm I've been with since BEFORE I ever even thought of being a minister or going to seminary. Before I knew JACK about any formal theological positions. I guess in this way, my "theistic bootlicking" ANTEDATED my formal education in theology.

Everything has grown from that.

Does this help?

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

Post Edited (Shekinah) : 7/26/2008 9:35:28 AM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Total Posts : 13888

Posted 7/26/2008 9:32 AM (GMT -6)

The "strange loop" symbolized by the MOBIUS STRIP...yeah...

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

Corey
Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893

Posted 7/26/2008 9:39 AM (GMT -6)

Well, my question in this thread is regarding the differences you and Tom are discussing. Do you hold it as conviction (which in my mind is the sorts of things I'd be willing to martyr over) or persuasion (the sort of things without which the world becomes incoherent for me) or opinion (everything else)?

The first category I'd consider "knowledge", the second "understanding", the third "speculation"

Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are.

Post Edited (Corey) : 7/26/2008 9:45:07 AM (GMT-5)

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