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BBBCanada
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   Posted 3/3/2009 5:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

This is the last post I put up but still have more to go...

As a preresuqite most of the information on pneumatic direction that I will be sourcing is from the Gospels and Pauline thought. Having said that…

Some Christians think that what separates a/the Christian ethic from legalism is pneumatic direction. That is, the Christian life is neither established nor guided by human wisdom (those who lean towards a pneumatically directed ethic see almost all forms of external criteria as legalistic, though I would argue that they intuitively work out of a external criteria on many levels) 1 Cor 1:18-2:5, but revealed to us through the Spirit 1 Cor 2:10 (along with the idea of assessing what the most loving thing to do in any given situation would be). This pneumatic direction, for Paul, he designates as “the mind of Christ” 1 Cor 2:16. That is, the mind of Christ is applied by the Spirit. Thus, the Christian is one who lives not by the letter of the Law but is controlled by the Spirit. The “flesh” is the distinguishing feature which controls the unbeliever, but the Spirit is the distinguishing feature in the believer’s guidance and life. This is the “new Covenant.”

What the exact relation between Christ and the Spirit in terms of immediate and direct guidance is not explicit in Paul. It could be that the “mind of Christ” became operative in the life of the Christian THROUGH the activity of the Spirit (this is how I’d usually think of it personally) as in 1 Cor 2:16. However, in II Cor 3:17 Paul seems to equate the two when he says, “the Lord is the Spirit.” Either way, the Christian, it seems, has a knowledge which no human wisdom can approximate or even test. Indeed, life in the Spirit (having the mind of Christ) seems to lie implicit in Paul’s whole conception of the Christian life and of his own apostolic ministry.

However, the question to be raised is this: While there is an emphasis on pneumatic direction, does this EXCLUDE ANY TYPE OF EXTERNAL CRITERIA? Or to put it another way, is there a “morality beyond rules?” (which, by the way, seems somewhat characteristic of Kierkegaard’s “suspension of the ethical”). Well, there have been exegetical issues raised against seeing this as decidedly one sided.

First Exegetical Problem: New Lawgiver and Torah in Messianic Thought
First, in Judaism there was the EXPECTATION of a new Torah. For example, Jer 31:31-34 speaks of a new covenant wherein God’s law would be written on the heart. What should be noted is that these verses do not automatically exclude the thought of external type of direction as well. Though this passage goes beyond others in speaking of a “new covenant” it can be paralleled by Ps 37:31, 40:8, Deut 30:14, 6:6 and 11:18 in its reference to the law contained in the heart with none of these passages ruling out the presence of the external Law. Indeed, there were many expectations in both the Old Testament and Jewish literature that some type of external and divine teaching would continue to be valid in “the latter days.” In the discoveries of Qumran there is evidence that the expectation of a new lawgiver and Torah was a part of the common Messianic thought of Judaism. For example, it has been long known that the Qumran community was awaiting “him who will teach righteousness.” (Dead Sea Scrolls).

Thus, while this thought may have been contained within Judaism and influenced Paul, it is more probable, according to some scholars, that the Church was probably more influential than Judaism at this point. Secondly, we see in Peter’s sermon on Solomon’s porch and Stephen’s defence before the elders that there is some sort of providential continuity between Moses and Christ via the quote of Deut 18:15: “A prophet shall (the Lord) God raise up unto you from among your brethren like unto me.”

Lastly, we see in the gospels a new law, new lawgiver, prophet, rabbi (written under the influence of a “high” Christology) where Jesus is seen as a TEACHER with his school of disciples teaching them to keep his COMMANDMENTS and where his person is in some sense a new Torah.

Second Exegetical Problem: Law of Christ
Paul presents the “law of Christ” in two passages:
Gal 6:2 where bearing one another’s burdens the Christian is fulfilling “the law of Christ.” In 1 Cor 9:21 Paul speaks of himself as not being without law before God but as being “under the law of Christ” or “in-lawed to Christ.” So the question to be asked is this: Does the “law of Christ” exclude any thought of a standard in the Christian life which possesses an external significance and validity?

Well, there are two interpretations. One is that the “law” is understood as the old pre-Christian mode that Paul understood unintentionally and the other interpretation is referring to a law where the “law of the Spirit” refers to an inward non-propositional guidance. However, there are problems with this because there is evidence that Paul understood “law of Christ” as more than acting in a Christian spirit and to be different in some respects from “law of the Spirit” Rom 8:2.

So it seems that “the law of Christ” has to have some external validity to it. Now, some scholars have pointed out that Paul was not opposed to “tradition” (paradosis) for the instruction and teaching of Christ and the Church even though:
1. It carried the idea of external authority within Judaism and
2. Jesus strongly denounced the “tradition of the elders” as being the “tradition of men” and
3. Paul had abandoned “the tradition of the fathers.”

In Paul’s day however, pious Jews were told to “hold fast” the traditions” and Paul exhorted his converts to “hold fast the traditions which you were taught” and praised them when they did hold fast the traditions though he opposed what he called “the traditions of men.” Thus, for Paul, it does not follow that he also opposed the external validity of all traditions and principles.

C.H. Dodd said: “…maxims which formed part of the tradition of sayings of Jesus are treated as if they were in some sort elements of a new Torah.”

And we see this when Paul, in discussing marriage in 1 Cor 7 claimed for his own view the direction of the Spirit and contrasts it favourably with what Christ said on the subject. Yet, it appeared that what Christ said remains uniquely authoritative.

This also occurs with regard to the maintenance of the Christian preacher 1 Cor 9:14, Matt 10:10, Lu 10:7 the institution of the Lord’s Supper 1 Cor 11:23-25, Matt 26:26-29 and the blessedness of giving, Acs 20:35 and Lu 14:12-14 as though such words of Jesus carried a decisive validity. Lastly, in Romans, there are at least eight passages where Paul is clearly dependent upon the words of Jesus and uses them as external guidance for the Christian life--for example, Rom 12:14, 17, 21

Though Luther insisted that Christ is “no Moses, no exactor, no giver of laws, but a giver of grace, a saviour, and one that is full of mercy” that statement should be understood in its context of justification by faith alone and as a reaction to the “schoolmen” and “merit-mongers” who commercialized righteousness. So the idea that “Christ is the end of the law” for those who believe should not be understood that we receive our guidance ONLY from the Holy Spirit. Though Paul’s usage of the word “law” should not be understood as identical with Judaic usage, it is not accidental. It would be a mistake to understand “the law of Christ” as equivalent of the rabbinic Halakah or to even confine it to the teachings of Jesus. For Paul, immediate Spirit guidance for the Church (no small institution) though valid, did not exclude that which the Lord commanded and ordained.

Bringing The Two Elements Together
So let’s bringing the two apparent polar opposites together. For Paul it seems that he views the teaching of Christ as the embodiment and one true interpretation of the Old Testament, ie. 1 Cor 15:3 where the Christian interpretation of the Old Testament prophecies came about in the first instance through the instruction of Jesus. It was not only through this though but also through Jesus’ tangible portrayal and instruction of the divine standard. For Paul, “The Law of Christ” must be understood as both Christ’s teaching and the example of the person of Christ.

So Paul brings both to the table in ethical reflection--Law of Christ and Mind of Christ. However and THIS is an important point, HE NEVER REPRESENTS THE NEW TORAH AS BEING A DETAILED CODE WHICH HAS A READY MADE ANSWER FOR EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE (something my buddy Randy was questioning as he was thinking way ahead of the game. Right on Randy! Tracking me perfectly!). Paul never exchanges the Halakah of the rabbis for the Halakah of Christ. Even where Paul has a definite command of the Lord with regard to marriage (as noted above), we should not understand Paul to be speaking about “law” in the sense of a detailed code covering every conceivable exigency. Instead, this command partakes of the nature of PRINCIPLE. A principle is something that POINTS THE WAY to the solution in a particular circumstance but which must be applied anew to differing situations. And we see this with regard to marriage. Christ establishes marriage as permanent from the beginning. However, he says nothing specific about ascetic separation within the married state or how this works out when one party becomes a Christian. 1Cor 7:10, 1Cor 7:3-6, 1Cor 7:12-16.

Thus, in a negative sense, these principles will objectively pass judgement on the self-assertion and waywardness of the Christian. In their positive sense, they will give authoritative guidance. E.F. Scott is appropriate to quote at this juncture:

“Instead of framing laws he stated principles, and made them so few and broad and simple that no one could overlook them…It is true that he enounced a large number of precepts which appear to bear directly on given questions of conduct…But when we look more closely into the precepts we find that they are not so much rules as illustrations. In every instance they involve a principle on which all the stress is laid; but it is applied to a concrete example, so that we may not only grasp it as a principle but judge for ourselves how it works.”

Let me use a few examples of what I mean. Think of when Jesus tells us to “forgive seventy times seven.” Matt 18:22. This should not be interpreted so precisely such that once we reach that number then we don’t have to forgive anymore. Or the example of prayer in Matt 6:9-13 and Lu 11:2-4 . This does not mean that such a prayer was binding on us in its order and phraseology for a truly proper intercession. What about when Jesus was on trial? Did he literally turn the other cheek?” No, though we believe he was true to the principle in Matt 5:39. The fact that Jesus spoke so much in parables is evidence of the fact that principles were the vital elements while the concrete situations in which those principles were encased were meant to be only illustrative. In Eph 5:2, 25 we read, “…walk in love, even as Christ loved us and gave himself for us” or in his praise of the Thessalonians that they “become…imitators of the Lord.” Are these to mean that we should actually repeat the sacrifice of Christ or that we should punctiliously conform to the external activity of the Lord’s ministry?

Personally, I don’t think Paul, who insisted that “the written code killeth” was prepared to view the Law of Christ as more than authoritative principles set in concrete illustrations.

So, going back to Dodd, the ethical precepts of the gospels “…serve two purposes. On the one hand they help towards an intelligent and realistic act of ‘repentance,’ because they offer an objective standard of judgement on our conduct, so that we know precisely where we stand in the sight of God, and are in a position to accept His judgement upon us and thereby to partake of His forgiveness. On the other hand, they are intended to offer positive moral guidance for action, to those who have, in the words of the gospels, received the Kingdom of God.”

Paul, it seems viewed the Law of Christ as both propositional principles and personal example that stood as valid external signposts all of which are bounds for the operation of liberty and are concerned with the quality of direction of Christian liberty.

Now, up until this point, I have not mentioned anything about pneumatic guidance of the “Mind of Christ.” So what do we mean by the “Mind of Christ.” Because we have the Law of Christ, does this mean then that we don’t need ANY guidance via the Holy Spirit? It would seem that if we were to rely solely on the Law of Christ there would be nothing distinctly Christian about it. As a matter of fact, to do so would be more in line with Stocism. While, the Law of Christ is A DEFINITIVE factor in the direction of Christian liberty, it is not the most DISTINCTIVE factor which ACTUALLY produces the CHRISTIAN ethic. What is the most distinctive factor is the “Mind of Christ” through the activity of the Spirit at work in the believer without whom the principles of the Law of Christ remain remote and unattainable. If all we needed was the principles, then it would seem that all we have is religion. Thus, the Christian is ultimately guided by the Spirit if guidance and Christian life is to be truly Christian, John 16:12-15

Paul uses the word dokimazo--testing, determining, proving. Of this, Cullmann says:

“The working of the Holy Spirit shows itself chiefly in the “testing” (dokimazein), that is in the capacity of forming the correct Christian ethical judgment at each given moment, and specifically of forming it in connection with the knowledge of the redemptive process, in which indeed, the Holy Spirit is a decisive figure. This “testing” is the key to all New Testament ethics….Certainty of moral judgment in the concrete sense is in the last analysis the one great fruit that the Holy Spirit, this factor in redemptive history, produces in the individual man.”

Under the Old Covenant the individual was to “DETERMINE the things which are best being instructed out of the law” Rom 2:8, however, in the New Covenant the Christian is to “TEST all things” and “DETERMINE the things which are best” Phil 1:10 by reference to the working of the Holy Spirit in his life.” (Side note: There is a close proximity of the exhortations “test all things” 1 Thess. 5:21 and “quench not the Spirit” 1 Thess 5:19 End side note). Thus, Paul will exhort, “Be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may DETERMINE what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.”

So guidance for Paul, will involve both “the Law of Christ” and “the Mind of Christ.” It is not productive of the Christian life if one is to stand alone. It is significant that both the Law of Christ and Spirit directed testing are joined together in the opening verses of Gal 6 and are subsumed under the broader heading of “walking in the Spirit.” 1 Corinthians stresses the Mind of Christ, but it also contains the reference to being “in-lawed” to Christ.” Thus, the “spiritual man” ie. the man who not only notes the principles and example of the Law of Christ but who also allows the Mind of Christ to make application to his ethical judgment at each given moment, “judges all things” 1 Cor 2:15. Such a person realizes that as he is guided by both the Law of Christ and the Mind of Christ” he need not worry about what men say for it is the “Lord who judges” 1 Cor 4:3-4, 1 Cor 2:15, 2 Cor 10:7, Col 2:16. At the same time he will allow the same freedom of ethical decision for his fellow Christian. He may see his brother taking a different course of action, but as his brother so desires to act within the bounds of the Law of Christ and be guided by the Mind of Christ, he ultimately recognizes that it is “before his own Lord that he stands or falls” Rom 14:4, Rom 14 1Cor 2:5 and 2 Cor 5:10.

So. All of this, it seems, goes to show that we are not totally without guidance when it comes to ethical decision making. We have SOME EXTERNAL CRITERIA in helping to guide us in these things. This does not mean that we have to have complete exhaustive knowledge to cover every possible situation. But neither should it mean that those who hold to a “more principled” Christian ethic should be seen as either claiming exhaustive knowledge or being legalistic. What I’m seeking to do is to counter the pendulum swinging in the OTHER, OPPOSITE direction of merely Spirit guidance (along with an ethic of love) which can lead (though not necessarily so) into ethical relativism. Given this, I hope it is starting to shape up as to how one could be a Pharisee with a genuine heartfelt faith and in turn how Christians can follow a new Torah with a genuine heartfelt faith as well.

Before signing off on this, in my next post I want to look at how this (the Law of Christ, the Law of the Spirit and the Mind of Christ) relates to apostolic authority.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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One Love
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   Posted 3/3/2009 11:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thought:

Isn't Jesus pretty much the enfleshment of the Great Commandments (upon which all the Law and Prophets hang)? In other words, Jesus IS the "Law of Christ" and the "Mind of Christ"...and His Holy Spirit is the Spirit of that Law and Mind.  As the Logos, Christ IS the "governing principle" of God's World.   The Torah testifies to who the God the Word is.
 
Right?
 
I don't see how "walking" according to the Spirit of the Word moment by moment doesn't lead you smack into the "Law of Christ", as the Spirit confirms the reality of the Word in the believer, transforming the mind towards the "Mind of Christ."


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 3/3/2009 10:27:30 AM (GMT-6)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 3/4/2009 10:41 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

There is no doubt that we come back to Christ. But the question it seems to me is, what does this mean? Does this mean that we have no external criteria? As I understand it, I still see no reason this would exclude any external criteria. Christ AND his teaching are both that criteria. They are both the “Law of Christ” yet I think it would be a mistake to not only make the “Law of Christ” equivalent to that of the rabbinic Halakah but also to CONFINE its designation only to the teachings of Jesus. Christ guides his Church through His Spirit, yes, but even for Paul with his strong sense of Christ’s immediate governance of the Church through His Spirit, that which the Lord commanded and ordained remains the “solid, historical and creative nucleus of the whole.” (Dodd). Then there is also the question of a new torah and torah giver in Judaistic thought. There is a great body of Jewish and rabbinic literature with regard to this and not only extra-biblical writings but within the biblical source material as it is. And that just can’t be ignored. I see walking in the Spirit as applying the Law of Christ in differing situations in which the Spirit works in the believer to produce the Mind of Christ to ultimately follow the Leader-- the Commander in Chief.

Today I was listening to Greg’s sermon, “A Sudden End and a New Beginning.” He spoke of “not holding on” to our possessions and whatever else. All these things will pass away. He said, we get our life from Christ. Is this not “new Torah?” Are we still not given this command and yet somehow we are following Christ and becoming more like Him?


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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One Love
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   Posted 3/4/2009 12:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon:
Today I was listening to Greg’s sermon, “A Sudden End and a New Beginning.” He spoke of “not holding on” to our possessions and whatever else. All these things will pass away. He said, we get our life from Christ. Is this not “new Torah?” Are we still not given this command and yet somehow we are following Christ and becoming more like Him?

Haven't heard Greg's message...but...

This "new Torah" that you are talking about seems like the same old one: Love the Lord with all oneself. To really do that IMPLIES only getting life from God. Not holding onto possessions is just what happens when one is only getting life from God.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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One Love
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   Posted 3/4/2009 1:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Like for real...

How much would our ethical behavior change if we truly loved God (who is Love) with ALL of our hearts, minds, and strenths? Seems to me that if we worked on creating a single desire for loving God, the ethical considerations would generally work themselves out.  Would it really be that hard to get justice to happen if people loved God more than themselves?  I don't think so.
 
Check it. What if a general believer spent ONLY 30% of their energy realizing their insufficiency to love God adequately, repent, and receive the Spirit every moment to "help" us love God with every erg of our heart's energies?  What would happen in their lives? Given the importance, SHOULDN'T that be what we suggest?
 
I think we be majoring in the minors...and leaving the most important things neglected.
 
maybe...

I think that ethical considerations will never work for societies with "divided" and "fragmented" wills. 


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 3/4/2009 12:07:06 PM (GMT-6)

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might-be-don
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   Posted 3/4/2009 3:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D. Maybe Brandon would say that "commandments" tell us "how" we are to be loving God.

Much like telling someone to be warm, without handing them a blanket.

peace, don


The world's perfect, wouldn't change a thing.
 

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 3/11/2009 9:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Sorry I haven’t responded to this. I’ve been feeling some anxiety about some things and it saps my energy from me and then I don’t feel like writing. So you may hear from me and then at times you may not. It’s just the way it is. Today is a good day. Anyhoo…

D: Brandon:
Today I was listening to Greg’s sermon, “A Sudden End and a New Beginning.” He spoke of “not holding on” to our possessions and whatever else. All these things will pass away. He said, we get our life from Christ. Is this not “new Torah?” Are we still not given this command and yet somehow we are following Christ and becoming more like Him?

Haven't heard Greg's message...but...

This "new Torah" that you are talking about seems like the same old one: Love the Lord with all oneself. To really do that IMPLIES only getting life from God. Not holding onto possessions is just what happens when one is only getting life from God.

Brandon: But it is also an imperative of scripture. This is why I brought up the issue of the Pharisees in the first place. I was intending to show that in loving God (getting life from God) the Pharisee will have reacting tendency toward God. One will seek to obey God because they know they are loved by God and in turn will respond to that love through obedience. Now, I listen to your sermon on gratitude Dwayne and at about the last 10 minutes you seem to me to say what I’m essentially saying. You tell the story, as an analogy for point one: “Don’t get overwhelmed with God’s gift to you” about a couple in love and the woman buys her finance a ring and he gets overly excited about the ring in contrast to the giver of the ring. You then said, “We MUST NOT get overwhelmed with God’s gift when he gives those gifts to us.”

Then you go on to talk about point two: “The love relationship to God, the gift giver, is more important than the gift.” You spoke about MAKING IDOLS of the gifts that God gives us--that we SHOULD NOT do this.

And then in point three you say: “Gratitude completes what faith begins” and this is where you really get into it. You speak of the one leper who received a holistic healing which could not be taken from him, and then you go on to talk about Jesus being the center of our lives in which nothing can take the place of that. Then you say, “…nothing is more important than Jesus, Jesus is and he must be the absolute center of everything we are about and it should be our joy AS WELL AS OUR DUTY to fall at his feet and thank Him for everything…” and then a little bit later you speak about us be Eucharistic beings and when we don’t give praise and honour and are grateful to God we are DISOBEYING.

Are these not imperatives? Are these not claims that the Gospel makes upon our lives? And yes, they seem very much in continuity with Old Testament commands ie. idols, so yes, I can agree that there was not something radically new about Jesus’ teaching. Nothing revolutionary. In fact, we could say that Jesus is a “law upholder” and not a destroyer. Think about it. The demand that you must not be angry with your brother is not thought of as utterly irreconcilable with the prohibition of killing. Actually, though the teaching is wider and deeper, it may be thought of as in some sense resulting from and certainly INCLUDING the old rule. It is a revelation of a fuller meaning for a new age. The second member unfolds rather than sweeps away the first. Which is to say, that to interpret on the side of stringency is not to annul the Law, but to change it in accordance with its own intention. So, I don’t really see anything antithetical about following imperatives and what you say below about loving God with all our hearts, mind and strength. 

D:  Like for real...

How much would our ethical behavior change if we truly loved God (who is Love) with ALL of our hearts, minds, and strenths? Seems to me that if we worked on creating a single desire for loving God, the ethical considerations would generally work themselves out. Would it really be that hard to get justice to happen if people loved God more than themselves? I don't think so.

Check it. What if a general believer spent ONLY 30% of their energy realizing their insufficiency to love God adequately, repent, and receive the Spirit every moment to "help" us love God with every erg of our heart's energies? What would happen in their lives? Given the importance, SHOULDN'T that be what we suggest?

I think we be majoring in the minors...and leaving the most important things neglected.

maybe...

I think that ethical considerations will never work for societies with "divided" and "fragmented" wills.

Brandon:  On the one hand, you bring up an interesting point that was brought up by the likes, of all people, those infamous Christian historians, Hatch, Noll and Marsden. The fact of the matter is that your anxiety goes back to some fundamental questions about “Christian cultures” and the bottom-line generally speaking is that most societies AND Christians WITHIN those societies have never maintained a level of radical Christianity that you and I would like to see. Even still, I agree that we need to love God, but that love has to ultimately be expressed in obedience. Personally, I think there is a disconnect between “loving” God and obedience to Him. If we spent 30% of our energy relying on the Spirit to apply his word to our lives then yes, the ethical imperatives would be on their way to working themselves out. I’m simply saying that there ARE imperatives and in part, loving God is doing what he demands of us.  So yes, I would agree with Don.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 3/11/2009 9:46:07 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 3/12/2009 10:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am.  God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian."  -James Fowler

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 3/13/2009 4:57 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

There is so much in that article D. Its a great article. Let me say though off the top that I am not saying that our obedience is or should be about "the usefulness of usefulness." I've always been an admirer of Mother Theresa and she exemplifies the opposite of the culture of ultilarianism--something I think you have to some extent, in the past, have suggested. And I certainly don't think we should think of our actions as useless. Funny, of all people, I had a counsellor tell me when things were going down between the ex and I and I was out of work (which was part of the problem [and even there the issues of why I was not working run deeper]), "There is no job beneath you. And you are not above any job." And so like the servant, we should not view ANY activity, any work or any obedience as "...useless in reference to the whole of God's economy and activity." But none of this contradicts anything of what I'm saying and as a matter of fact, Fowler goes on to say in speaking of "The Parable of the Useless Servant":

"The point of the parable is that on the spiritual plane within the kingdom of God, Christian servants are expected to spontaneously do what they are commanded to do. They "listen under" their Lord in obedience. Afterwards they do not expect time-off for an awards banquet to be praised for their productivity, their usefulness, or their indispensable value to God. The servant in Jesus' parable did not expect such. Rather, his self-declaration is, "We are useless slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done."

Sure, the point is that Fowler is criticizing this false sense of worth, but the point still stands that servants are called to spontaneously do (arising out of a changed nature) what they are COMMANDED to do. Fowler doesn't seem to me to be talking about our obedience as have no worth at all ie. “…If we adjudge our actions "useless" prior to engagement therein, we will either drag our feet in passivism or give up in the fatalism that declares "what will be, will be; que sera, sera." Only as we have "put our hand to the plow" (cf. Lk. 9:62) and look back on what we have done, do we have the proper perspective of our place before God as a dependent and derivative creature, desiring nothing else. So the personal perspective of uselessness should never serve as an preliminary excuse for inaction. The retrospective detachment and evaluation humbly admits, "I have just done what I have been asked to do. I deserve no credit or favor. My input and exertion were rather useless and insignificant. I was just available and receptive to the Lord's desire."


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 3/13/2009 6:33 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let me ask this question. Out of all the laws in the Old Testament, and out of all the sacrifices made and out of all the offerings given, etc, etc, are we to think that these were done out of mere formality? My point in this thread is to suggest that it is not all about following the Spirit, but following the Spirit with external criteria to boot out of a response for what God has done for us.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 3/21/2009 2:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I was just listening to Greg's sermon, "Acting on the Truth" from 1/18/2009 again.  It blows me away that Greg says at about 27-28 mins into the sermon, that because we have Moses, the prophets and Jesus who actually rose from the dead telling us our responsibility to not be greedy and help those less fortunate that we DON'T have to what?  "PRAY about THIS ONE."  He actually advocates that we don't have to pray and wonder if this is God's WILL or not.  We "don't have to wait for a sign from God to tell us to do something he has commanded us a thousands times to do."
 
The whole sermon was about acting, actions and works and here he says we don't need to pray and ask for Holy Spirit guidance on some things.  It blows my mind!  So I ask, "Why do we need the Spirit when we have the information for what we are to do?"  I mean, first, doesn't everyone recognize that there is no incongruity between what Greg is advocating and "getting life from God?"  Is this problematic?  Seriously, its a real question.  Is not a part of "getting life from God" the solidification of the capacity to act on what we know?  Meaning that the more I ACT on what I know, the more I will solidify not only in the capacity to act more in a certain direction but will actually ACT in that direction?  Not only will my heart be MORE OPEN (capacity), but the actions themselves will become "easier?"  Is this formation not the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts?
 
Still we are left with the dilemma of the Spirit and the thousands of bits of information of what we are to do ie. the external criteria.  In a sense the lesson of the whole parable of Lazarus is an imperative.  See my problem with him advocating this is that actually with the information we have we need Holy Spirit or pneumatic guidance to make it applicable to any given situation.  For example, Greg says there is nothing wrong with being rich and then quotes Timothy at about 29 mins into the sermon about the responsibility to share with those less fortunate, and then at 32mins he says, "that doesn't mean you are to give money to every panhandler that approaches you" why?  Because many panhandlers are not in Lazarus' position as they will use it for other and possibly more evil means ie. drugs, etc. 
 
However, following the Spirit in that moment might MEAN TO DO SO as you might not know what that person's intentions really are (even with all the stats that show they will use it for less than noble purposes as Greg went on to say).  They may possibly use that money for very noble reasons and purposes ie. to get some food at McDonalds.  And this is where the ambiguity comes in.  In certain situations you may be able to enquire about such things but in others?  Well, it's not always that easy which is why whatever decision you make that is between you and the Lord whom you are ultimately responsible to.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 3/21/2009 2:43:42 PM (GMT-5)

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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 3/21/2009 2:49 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I mean, think about this.  We've only talked about this on these boards like forever.  Following Jesus MOMENT BY MOMENT.  How can Greg advocate such a position?


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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