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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/10/2004 3:07 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Please do share your story. Perhaps your story might help Spen Lake understand how the Holy Spirit was at work bringing LIFE and TRUTH. I would love to here it!
Hi Quest,
If you knew me, you would know the transformation that this has brought in my life.
Almost three years ago I was visiting our daughter's church (she started going to a pentecostal church when she was about 16 and we would visit there on Sunday evenings). We are from a Southern Baptist denomination and now attend a non-denominational church (since 1996). Anyway, part of the service included a play that two of her friends did. One of them played various people, while the other played the enemy. It was about how the enemy lies to people about who they are). I was so moved by the play and at the end of it the Spirit whispered into my heart "What is keeping you from bringing that little girl to me, from putting her hand in mine?" I kind of knew what He was saying. I did know that I was to go to the front, to the altar, and even though the service was over and people were leaving...I decided not to let pride keep me from doing what the spirit was prompting me to do. I went up and knealt at the front and began to cry, then sobb. I really didn't know what to say to God accept to tell him that I was there, that I had come. I don't know how long I was there, but after awhile I stood up and sat in the front row, tears still streaming down my cheeks. A lady that I knew a little from that church came over to me and asked me what the spirit was saying to me, what He was doing in my heart. I told her a bit about my childhood. I was deeply hurt, as a child between the ages of 3 and 11 years of age. She told me that she had had something similar happen in her life. She began to pray for me and I continued to cry, crying so hard that I was choking, but as she continued to pray the tears subsided and I began to feel this peace wash over me and I had this vision of a bird cage with the door open. That's it, until almost a year later.
A year later, I began prayer counselling. I had avoided writing the letter that I needed to write, filled my life with family and ministry and had become unbearably busy. So, we set a date to begin and I began writing this letter, alone at our church (not a letter I would ever give to anyone). It took six gut wrenching hours alone at the church to write.
I began counselling and journalling and about a month and a half into this, during one of our sessions, the counsellor picked up on something I had written while I was journalling (I spent hours and hours every week at our church, praying, waiting on God, listening to the spirit, playing piano. I did this for weeks, so I can relate to what Dr Boyd was saying. I wrote, "Somehow the cage is still safer." My counsellor (a wonderful, compassionate, spirit filled lady) told me that she wanted to pray through that with me. So, we set a date and began what was to become a three hour prayer time, during which the Lord gave me this amazing vision. I had asked for forgiveness for anything that I had done in my past that I was aware of and had forgiven the people in my life who had hurt me. As we prayed I had a vision of a bird cage (as I had before), with the door open. As we continued to pray, I saw that it was not a bird, but me as a little girl cowering in the corner of the cage at the bottom. My counsellor friend was praying right along with me. There were long periods of silence as we waited on the spirit, but occasionally she would feel impressed to ask me something else. She asked me where Jesus was...so I began to pray and wait and then responded as the Spirit showed me that He was in that cage with me. He was holding his hand out to me and I was afraid to take his hand. He was reassuring me that I did not need to be afraid. (Remember, this was 3 hours of praying). By faith, in this vision, I made a decision. And in the vision, the little girl placed her hand in His. He lead her out of the bird cage and as He did, the little girl became me (fully grown). I walked with Him on a grassy hillside and we sat side by side in the warm sun, with birds and trees and the sound of water nearby. It was completely peaceful. My counsellor then took that cage and in prayer, destroyed it so i could never return.
I had spent all of my life living from a place of fear, afraid to venture out places on my own, afraid to write, afraid of men (even Christian brothers), afraid to play the piano...(the list goes on). It was paralyzing fear, irrational. But, from that day on my life took a radical turn. It began, as a friend recently commented, a cascade of changes in my life. I began writing, and from that came my first book of prose, an inspirational book called "A Wing Tip." I felt like I had emerged from a cocoon of sorts and that this was the beginning. I began teaching myself piano and love it. I've written several songs. I've lost more than 50 pounds. My relationship with the Lord became a passionate walk and has grown since. I love studying, love discussing theology. I began an exploration of the Open View and love the "picture of the Father" which I now have. I love praying. I have shared two messages on Sunday mornings. I have always been painfully shy, so for me to do this was an absolute miracle. I am planning a third on being transformed by the renewing of our minds. I am part of a pastoral care team at our church. You could ask my husband what other changes there have been and he would be glad to fill you in. Of course, with any change, come unique struggles, but we have been growing together through these dramatic changes in my life.
Spen might say that this is not the same, because my vision is not a "replacement vision" but in a very real sense, any vision that heals and transforms is a replacement vision because it replaces the deception of the enemy (his lies about who God is and who we are in Him) with the truth (I now see the Father for who He is and I am growing constantly in my relationship and awareness of who I now am in Him). I have wonderful friendships with brothers in Christ as I relate to them in our church and on the pastoral team. I know longer live from a place of fear. I've seen the face of love.
You know the song, "Redeemed, how I love to proclaim it!" Well, you could substitute transformed in place of redeemed and it would be my song. I continue to desire transformation in my life and am open to whatever He has for me in the future.
This is part of that transformation. A couple of years ago I would never have dreamed, much less "dared" to be part of a discussion board like this.
I do realize that it was the healing power of the Holy Spirit that lead me to this transformation. It was up to me to receive it and walk in it, and even to continue to walk in it daily. He can lead, but nothing happens unless we follow.
I know this is different than what Dr Boyd experienced, but that doesn't matter. The Spirit transforms each of us in unique ways. But the truth of being "free indeed" has really hit home for me. That is why He came. He came to redeem, to heal and restore.
This is what Dr Boyd is referring to as cataphatic prayer. It is not new at all. I would probably not have believed, and perhaps not received the vision if I hadn't of had the vision of the bird cage almost a year previous to that. And, I am a person who rarely has visions. I love praying, but visions are rare. Perhaps this is why I love praying so much, as Dr Boyd said, it is "alive and real" to me - not something I am just instructed to do. It is definitely not mundane. Often the Lord leads me to a scripture passage. Sometimes I just listen. Sometimes I'm inspired to write prose or poetry or a song. I'm working on a second book.
He really is amazing, isn't He?
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/10/2004 4:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Jo-Anne,
Thank you for sharing that story. PRAISE GOD for the transforming power of the Holy Spirit! Jesus came to bring the life, truth, and hope. Jesus came to break us free from the prison that sin has had us bound in. I praise God with you that you have been so transformed that you are now doing things you never would have when in that cage.
Perhaps sharing testimonies of how using cataphatic prayer, or something similar, has transformed the lives of others would inspire Spen Lake on how God transforms us in unique ways and that these transformations all produce glory to the Father. Jesus came to do healings and miracles so that we would glorify the Father in heaven.
Jo-Anne, you said that you wrote an inspirational book called "A Wing Tip" -- how can one go about getting a copy? Would you share some inspirational writings here with us? That would be a blessing. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/10/2004 4:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne,
quote:
Jo-Anne says, Spen might say that this is not the same, because my vision is not a "replacement vision" but in a very real sense, any vision that heals and transforms is a replacement vision because it replaces the deception of the enemy (his lies about who God is and who we are in Him) with the truth (I now see the Father for who He is and I am growing constantly in my relationship and awareness of who I now am in Him). I have wonderful friendships with brothers in Christ as I relate to them in our church and on the pastoral team. I know longer live from a place of fear. I've seen the face of love.
Psalm 142:7,
“Bring my soul out of prison,
So that I may give thanks to Your name;
The righteous will surround me,
For You will deal bountifully with me.”
Is 42:6, "I am the LORD, I have called you in righteousness,
I will also hold you by the hand and watch over you,
And I will appoint you as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the nations,
To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon
And those who dwell in darkness from the prison.
“I am the LORD, that is My name;
Ps 14:7, "Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores His captive people,
Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.
Is 49:24, "Can the prey be taken from the mighty man,
Or the captives of a tyrant be rescued?”
Surely, thus says the LORD,
“Even the captives of the mighty man will be taken away,
And the prey of the tyrant will be rescued;
Is 61:1, "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;
To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD
Luke 4:18, "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
I seems that according to the scriptures the real Jesus is the liberator of captives and brings freedom to those in prison, He would lead one out of a cage. This is neither fiction nor is it replacing anything with a false history where you pretend the events never happened. It is simply the truth that is offered to us. The vision itself is entirely different than a false history.
In addition, it is true NOT because you experienced it but because the bible speaks to this and is explicit in its confirmation that Jesus does set the prisoners free and bring freedom to the captives. The experience is validated by the word, not the inverse.
God bless, I hope and pray your son continues improving.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/10/2004 4:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Dear Jo-Anne,
Thank you for sharing that story. PRAISE GOD for the transforming power of the Holy Spirit! Jesus came to bring the life, truth, and hope. Jesus came to break us free from the prison that sin has had us bound in. I praise God with you that you have been so transformed that you are now doing things you never would have when in that cage.
Perhaps sharing testimonies of how using cataphatic prayer, or something similar, has transformed the lives of others would inspire Spen Lake on how God transforms us in unique ways and that these transformations all produce glory to the Father. Jesus came to do healings and miracles so that we would glorify the Father in heaven.
Jo-Anne, you said that you wrote an inspirational book called "A Wing Tip" -- how can one go about getting a copy? Would you share some inspirational writings here with us? That would be a blessing.
Quest,
I would be glad to send you one. I have a certain number that I can give away. I sent one to Sparknheart. I'm waiting for a reprint of them. If you send me an address I'll send you one.
As far as sharing inspiration writing here...we'll see. I may if I feel inspired to do that someday. I don't see others doing that here though. My writing is not really in keeping with what we are discussing here. But, thanks for asking.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/10/2004 4:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Jo-Anne,
quote:
Jo-Anne says, Spen might say that this is not the same, because my vision is not a "replacement vision" but in a very real sense, any vision that heals and transforms is a replacement vision because it replaces the deception of the enemy (his lies about who God is and who we are in Him) with the truth (I now see the Father for who He is and I am growing constantly in my relationship and awareness of who I now am in Him). I have wonderful friendships with brothers in Christ as I relate to them in our church and on the pastoral team. I know longer live from a place of fear. I've seen the face of love.
Psalm 142:7,
“Bring my soul out of prison,
So that I may give thanks to Your name;
The righteous will surround me,
For You will deal bountifully with me.”
Is 42:6, "I am the LORD, I have called you in righteousness,
I will also hold you by the hand and watch over you,
And I will appoint you as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the nations,
To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon
And those who dwell in darkness from the prison.
“I am the LORD, that is My name;
Ps 14:7, "Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores His captive people,
Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.
Is 49:24, "Can the prey be taken from the mighty man,
Or the captives of a tyrant be rescued?”
Surely, thus says the LORD,
“Even the captives of the mighty man will be taken away,
And the prey of the tyrant will be rescued;
Is 61:1, "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;
To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD
Luke 4:18, "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
I seems that according to the scriptures the real Jesus is the liberator of captives and brings freedom to those in prison, He would lead one out of a cage. This is neither fiction nor is it replacing anything with a false history where you pretend the events never happened. It is simply the truth that is offered to us. The vision itself is entirely different than a false history.
In addition, it is true NOT because you experienced it but because the bible speaks to this and is explicit in its confirmation that Jesus does set the prisoners free and bring freedom to the captives. The experience is validated by the word, not the inverse.
God bless, I hope and pray your son continues improving.
Thanks for asking about my son. He is improving steadily now. He's wearing a back brace, but actually went to the swimming pool tonight!
I know that the Spirit did that in my life because of the transformation that took place, and the fruit that has been manifested in my life as a result. I would imagine Dr Boyd knows the same thing (same Spirit) for the same reason (different fruit). I think that some things that the Spirit does (being supernatural) are difficult for us to wrap our finite minds around. It's sometimes easier to discount what we don't understand. I know you see it as false. I just don't see it. The "bird cage" wasn't real. What the spirit did in my life was real. The "red airplane" wasn't real, but Jesus is real and what He did to heal a wounded child was real as well. Many of the things that took place in the New Testament did not make logical sense (or the Old), but they were supernatural events (not all of them visible), that brought about transformation.
It is the truth that sets us free. I guess we have different criteria for truth. What happened to Dr Boyd is congruent with my picture of Jesus Christ and what He would do for a little boy. Any counsellor will tell you that when you deal with an issue of woundedness, you go back to the age that it happened. That's just what Jesus did. Even for me. It was a little girl in that cage, not a grown woman, even though it really was a grown woman (me) who needed healing. He needed to heal the child. I went into that cage because I believed it was a safer place to live life from, but that was a deception, a lie of the enemy and it kept me from being "free indeed." Once I knew the truth, I was free to live and enjoy and serve and love, to worship Him in Spirit and in truth.
A bird cage or a red plane. He will use whatever He pleases. Our only job is to listen for His voice and respond. He points the way, and we follow, or not. It's our choice. I'm glad that Dr Boyd chose to listen and follow, as I did.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne  (basking in the light of His love)
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/11/2004 1:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne,
If there wasn't a cage and if the cage wasn't real, what do the passages mean? Of course there is a real prison and cage and captives. Our understanding of what the cage is may be distorted, but scriptures tell us that there is a prison and we are captives. Jesus claimed to be the one that had come to free us. God doean't lie and he tells us that we were held captive and that He came to free us.
The fact that you had a vision doesn't make it more true or less true. If you believe in a vision because of the vision, how can you state that you believe that the scriptures are the only authoritative word of God? If visions are the word of God on their own, without needing scriptural proof, then you have 2 sources of authoritative words of God, the Bible and your visions. Why not then say that the Pope has visions and that He can speak authoritatively for God as the Catholics do. I have visions and then my visions are God as well. We can all speak authoritatively for God and have our words and scriptures to lead us to God.
I AM NOT saying that God doesn't speak to us or give us visions. HE does and I believe that scriptures tell us that He does. What I am claiming is that once you have had a vision, the only way you know FOR CERTAIN what God is saying in it is to find it in scriptures. The vision only has authority to the extent the scriptures give it authority, no freestyle authority. The Pope speaks as a man. If what he says is supported by the scriptures then his words carry their authority. Your son bringing you a message supported by the scriptures has just as much authority as the Pope, because it is the same authority, God has spoken to us and given us the faith once and for all deivered to the saints.
Your vision isn't true because you had it. To the extent that scripures support it, it is true. If visions were true on their own then we may all follow Joseph Smith and join our the Mormons. They are typically nice people with high ethical standards. I just don't believe that the vision of Joseph Smith was true, even though he felt it was, may have lived a good life, and died for what he believed. His vision didn't measure up to scriptures and thus he had another testament of Jesus Christ with additional words beyond the word of God
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/11/2004 9:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
If you read my bio I have not come from a "dry, dead, denominational" background. I have spent most of my life in a Christian culture that has enthusiastically pursued a "pragmatic" spirituality. I mean by this that my parents and those around me believed that they were entering into spiritual dimensions that hadn't been seen since the early church. I have personally met many of leaders of this movement and spent great amounts of time under their teachings. I have seen the "fruit" of this and it isn't as glowing as you seem to believe. It isn't because I don't believe in spirits and the supernatural that I am cautious, it is because I do.
The "fruit" that I am witnessing in the honest dialogues with you both is deeply concerning. A pragmatic "if it works it must be good" has so permeated your beliefs that the "means" to achieve temporal comfort have become neutral or unimportant, especially if we give them Christian labels. Your reference point has become your experience and not the scriptures. This is obvious in the posts. I know it is true because I experienced it, therefore this is what the scriptures mean. The experience validates the scriptures and not the inverse.
Hello Spen,
I think you would get more mileage conveying your warnings and concerns over Dr. Boyd’s book if you would elaborate on your own true experiences. What similarities are you directly speaking about? What fruits are you referring to?
Peace,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/11/2004 11:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Jo-Anne,
If there wasn't a cage and if the cage wasn't real, what do the passages mean? Of course there is a real prison and cage and captives. Our understanding of what the cage is may be distorted, but scriptures tell us that there is a prison and we are captives. Jesus claimed to be the one that had come to free us. God doean't lie and he tells us that we were held captive and that He came to free us.
The fact that you had a vision doesn't make it more true or less true. If you believe in a vision because of the vision, how can you state that you believe that the scriptures are the only authoritative word of God? If visions are the word of God on their own, without needing scriptural proof, then you have 2 sources of authoritative words of God, the Bible and your visions. Why not then say that the Pope has visions and that He can speak authoritatively for God as the Catholics do. I have visions and then my visions are God as well. We can all speak authoritatively for God and have our words and scriptures to lead us to God.
I AM NOT saying that God doesn't speak to us or give us visions. HE does and I believe that scriptures tell us that He does. What I am claiming is that once you have had a vision, the only way you know FOR CERTAIN what God is saying in it is to find it in scriptures. The vision only has authority to the extent the scriptures give it authority, no freestyle authority. The Pope speaks as a man. If what he says is supported by the scriptures then his words carry their authority. Your son bringing you a message supported by the scriptures has just as much authority as the Pope, because it is the same authority, God has spoken to us and given us the faith once and for all deivered to the saints.
Your vision isn't true because you had it. To the extent that scripures support it, it is true. If visions were true on their own then we may all follow Joseph Smith and join our the Mormons. They are typically nice people with high ethical standards. I just don't believe that the vision of Joseph Smith was true, even though he felt it was, may have lived a good life, and died for what he believed. His vision didn't measure up to scriptures and thus he had another testament of Jesus Christ with additional words beyond the word of God
Spen,
Thank you for your reply. Tonight was an extremely tough night as part of a ministry team - painful and a test of what it means to "take the high road" as a Christian. So, I'll make this short.
I do count the Word of God as being the final authority. I also look to Jesus as the picture of the Father. I do not depend on visions alone, but I also trust the Holy Spirit as He speaks to me and it does line up with those two things.
All those verses are wonderful and yes, the Bible does speak about us being captives and being set free. Those verses apply equally as well to the vision Dr Boyd had. He too, was a captive, and was set free. The vision He had was true to scripture and true to the picture of the Father that we see in Jesus Christ.
I'm "laying this down" now Spen. (Reminds me of that Kenny Rogers' Song "You've got to know when to hold'm, know when to fold'm...") I'm folding. I've appreciated the dialogue and what the Father has taught me through this. I need to do this to take "the high road."
Good night and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/12/2004 1:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Spen,
Thank you for your reply. Tonight was an extremely tough night as part of a ministry team - painful and a test of what it means to "take the high road" as a Christian. So, I'll make this short.
I do count the Word of God as being the final authority. I also look to Jesus as the picture of the Father. I do not depend on visions alone, but I also trust the Holy Spirit as He speaks to me and it does line up with those two things.
All those verses are wonderful and yes, the Bible does speak about us being captives and being set free. Those verses apply equally as well to the vision Dr Boyd had. He too, was a captive, and was set free. The vision He had was true to scripture and true to the picture of the Father that we see in Jesus Christ.
I'm "laying this down" now Spen. (Reminds me of that Kenny Rogers' Song "You've got to know when to hold'm, know when to fold'm...") I'm folding. I've appreciated the dialogue and what the Father has taught me through this. I need to do this to take "the high road."
Good night and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Jo-Anne,
The verses about captivity do not apply equally to the example of the false history experienced in the imagination of Dr. Boyd. They do apply to Dr. Boyd and Christ's desire to set him free, but Jesus does NOT do this through experiencing the false. There is another verse that applies and it isn't, "and you shall know the false and the false will set you free." The only time that I have seen scriptures support God sending the false is in passages like 2 Thess 2:11. God doesn't send the false for freedom but for captivity. He does so because people do not love the truth.
"For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."
We are told in this same passage to stand firm in the teachings of Paul. Religious wickedness is believing in or confessing a different Jesus or a different gospel. The men of Matthew 7:22 were doing this. They had miracles, fought the devil, and spoke and worked in the name of God. I believe that they were extremely sincere, outwardly pious, and wicked. However, they had imagined another Jesus and somehow deluded themselves that their Jesus was truly the Lord on the throne. When brought before Him they called the real Jesus their Lord. The real Jesus corrected them and spoke the truth when He said that He never knew them. They were sincere, pious, mistaken, deluded, and damned.
This truth has content and DOES NOT consist of false history. The ends do not justify the means and the Spirit of Truth does not inspire false history even ONCE in the scriptures. Dr. Boyd's spirits inspire false replacement stories for him to experience and find freedom. This does not meet the standard of scriptures and fails the test of discernment. This is a cage, not freedom. If Dr. Boyd believes in false replacement events to rework memories and experience Jesus, if he believes that this is "resting in Christ," he is not being led out of the cage, but into it. This is what is claimed in 2 Thess 2.
Follow the scriptures and let them interpret your experiences. The Holy Spirit works through the word of God and will lead us to the truth there. Experiences that promise freedom in the false are not sent by God to give us freedom. If we believe in them and confess them we will be deluded.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/15/2004 9:16 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Spen,
Thank you for your reply. Tonight was an extremely tough night as part of a ministry team - painful and a test of what it means to "take the high road" as a Christian. So, I'll make this short.
I do count the Word of God as being the final authority. I also look to Jesus as the picture of the Father. I do not depend on visions alone, but I also trust the Holy Spirit as He speaks to me and it does line up with those two things.
All those verses are wonderful and yes, the Bible does speak about us being captives and being set free. Those verses apply equally as well to the vision Dr Boyd had. He too, was a captive, and was set free. The vision He had was true to scripture and true to the picture of the Father that we see in Jesus Christ.
I'm "laying this down" now Spen. (Reminds me of that Kenny Rogers' Song "You've got to know when to hold'm, know when to fold'm...") I'm folding. I've appreciated the dialogue and what the Father has taught me through this. I need to do this to take "the high road."
Good night and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Jo-Anne,
The verses about captivity do not apply equally to the example of the false history experienced in the imagination of Dr. Boyd. They do apply to Dr. Boyd and Christ's desire to set him free, but Jesus does NOT do this through experiencing the false. There is another verse that applies and it isn't, "and you shall know the false and the false will set you free." The only time that I have seen scriptures support God sending the false is in passages like 2 Thess 2:11. God doesn't send the false for freedom but for captivity. He does so because people do not love the truth.
"For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."
We are told in this same passage to stand firm in the teachings of Paul. Religious wickedness is believing in or confessing a different Jesus or a different gospel. The men of Matthew 7:22 were doing this. They had miracles, fought the devil, and spoke and worked in the name of God. I believe that they were extremely sincere, outwardly pious, and wicked. However, they had imagined another Jesus and somehow deluded themselves that their Jesus was truly the Lord on the throne. When brought before Him they called the real Jesus their Lord. The real Jesus corrected them and spoke the truth when He said that He never knew them. They were sincere, pious, mistaken, deluded, and damned.
This truth has content and DOES NOT consist of false history. The ends do not justify the means and the Spirit of Truth does not inspire false history even ONCE in the scriptures. Dr. Boyd's spirits inspire false replacement stories for him to experience and find freedom. This does not meet the standard of scriptures and fails the test of discernment. This is a cage, not freedom. If Dr. Boyd believes in false replacement events to rework memories and experience Jesus, if he believes that this is "resting in Christ," he is not being led out of the cage, but into it. This is what is claimed in 2 Thess 2.
Follow the scriptures and let them interpret your experiences. The Holy Spirit works through the word of God and will lead us to the truth there. Experiences that promise freedom in the false are not sent by God to give us freedom. If we believe in them and confess them we will be deluded.
Spen,
I do agree with you in saying that we should "follow the scriptures and let them interpret" our experiences. And, I do agree that the Holy Spirit works through the word of God and "will lead us to the truth." I guess where we disagree is in thinking that this is the only way that the Holy Spirit speaks, or that the Holy Spirit giving a vision which heals a previous memory is "false." I don't believe that we, as believers, have the authority or even the place to judge that. If something is contrary to the Word of God (where it is "black and white") or contrary to the picture of the Father (His character) which we see in Jesus Christ, then that is a different story.
I do want to say that I have appreciated your patience. I know that you have had great difficulty accepting this. I am surprised at the things you have said about Dr Boyd. He is not a personal friend. I've never met him. I do respect him as a theolgian and author and his books have been instrumental for me along this journey of exploring the Open View.
Anyway, it's late...so goodnight and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/15/2004 10:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Spen,
I was thinking about the issue you have with how Dr. Boyd has shared the healing he experienced through a past traumatic event in his life.... I know you want scripture to back up every single interaction and healing the the Holy Spirit brings to people but I am wondering if you are being a little too legalistic? The reason I say this is because I know that the Pharisee's had a difficult time with Jesus doing anything outside of the law. When Jesus healed on the Sabbath the church leaders were greatly upset. Jesus set a blind man free just as he set Dr. Boyd free from the lie installed during the episode with his grandma. Shouldn't we be joyful that a brother was blind but now can see instead of focusing on the law? This is where the Pharisee's were hung up. Do you know what I mean?
I am not saying you are a Pharisee but what I am saying is that you are too hung up in making sure every "t" is crossed instead of allowing the Spirit to bring healing wherever needed (even when that includes a brother doing an exercise that frees him from a bondage) that you are missing out on some of where the Spirit is moving. Let us rejoice when the prisoner is set free! Let us rejoice when the blind can see! Let us rejoice when a grown man can go back into a hurtful memory and take with him the wisdom of a man to a hurting little boy! Let us test the Spirit by the fruit produced. In Dr. Boyd's case he was brought closer to Jesus Christ through this transformation. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/16/2004 3:12 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Spen,
I was thinking about the issue you have with how Dr. Boyd has shared the healing he experienced through a past traumatic event in his life.... I know you want scripture to back up every single interaction and healing the the Holy Spirit brings to people but I am wondering if you are being a little too legalistic? The reason I say this is because I know that the Pharisee's had a difficult time with Jesus doing anything outside of the law. When Jesus healed on the Sabbath the church leaders were greatly upset. Jesus set a blind man free just as he set Dr. Boyd free from the lie installed during the episode with his grandma. Shouldn't we be joyful that a brother was blind but now can see instead of focusing on the law? This is where the Pharisee's were hung up. Do you know what I mean?
I am not saying you are a Pharisee but what I am saying is that you are too hung up in making sure every "t" is crossed instead of allowing the Spirit to bring healing wherever needed (even when that includes a brother doing an exercise that frees him from a bondage) that you are missing out on some of where the Spirit is moving. Let us rejoice when the prisoner is set free! Let us rejoice when the blind can see! Let us rejoice when a grown man can go back into a hurtful memory and take with him the wisdom of a man to a hurting little boy! Let us test the Spirit by the fruit produced. In Dr. Boyd's case he was brought closer to Jesus Christ through this transformation.
Quest,
I appreciate your concern for me. Thank you. Your comments are welcome. I am certain that there is much of the Pharisee in me. I don't think, however, that what you are pointing to is where it is most expressed. Claiming to speak for God and claiming that "my exercises" are "resting in Christ" is a big statement. This goes beyond my rejoicing in the healing of a brother or being joyful with those that are joyful. It is absolutely imperative that we look into the claims of those who claim to speak for God or take and speak with His authority. This is not being a Pharisee, this is being an obedient sheep. When Jesus tells us that His sheep know His voice, it wasn't based upon "feeling" but upon content. 1 John 4:1 tells us that it is imperative to discern what spirit is speaking. The one who confesses the Christ that the Apostles knew and wrote about, this is the one we listen to NOT the one who imagines a Christ that tells unsaved children that they are good and encourages them to rebuke their legitimate authorities so that they can be free and find forgiving power.
I think that the questions that I have posed to you should raise your concerns. If all you can do is point to "results" and not to the content of the message, you should have far more concern than you do. Jesus explicitly warns us that many will come IN HIS NAME. They claim they are sent by Him. They will also claim that they are ANOINTED (meaning of Christ, the anointed one). This description fits many men today. How many times have you heard the word "anointed" used and applied to various men. I am not saying that it is a "magic" word that causes men to go bad. I am saying, that the concept is still real and manifest today. Men DO claim to have "special anointings" and they teach things that are not supported by scriptures. I have been involved with "moves" of God (that I thought were the Holy Spirit). I am more cautious now, because I believe that we have been commmanded to be cautious and that to discern factual content by the scriptures is what obedient listeners should do.
The first and foremost "fruit" to discern is not a "feeling" of a grown man or little boy, it is the message itself. Is the message the gospel or is it something else? Dr. Boyd is claiming his exercises are resting in Christ and bring the power of forgiveness we find in the gospel. I am not able to agree that his message is what he claims it to be. I believe that it is not the gospel and his example is contrary to the words of the Good Shepherd, whose voice we are supposed to know by its content. The Jesus of Dr. Boyd's example says things and acts in ways contrary to the Jesus of the scriptures.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/17/2004 1:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne,
quote:
You ask me, "Please explain. I think Jesus would have loved to give that little boy a shiny red plane and a hug. He would have told him he was a good boy and would have just loved him because he was a person of infinite worth - a toddler held accountable for sin. And amazingly, He loved us enough to die for us "while we were yet sinners." He counted the cost and considered it to be a "joy set before him."
What is contrary to the "Jesus of the scriptures?"
Jesus of the scriptures never called any unsaved sinner "good" but explicitly reserved that term for God. He never came to people that were hurting, especially children, and encouraged them to call their legitimate authorities "bad" as the "Jesus" of Dr. Boyd does with him in his false story. Jesus never encourages a sinner to defend themselves and their "goodness" as does the Jesus in Dr. Boyd's imagination. The true Jesus encourages us by saying, "your sins are forgiven." The Jesus in Dr. Boyd's story never mentions the sins of the boy or brings them to mind so that He can forgive them and the boy can repent. The true Jesus proclaims repentance of sins and the gospel of salvation through His blood, the imaginary one only offers comforting imaginary airplanes. In the story, the only thing that young Dr. Boyd "repents" from is the true biblical concept that an unsaved sinner is "bad" and needs to repent from his own sins and trust in the cross and Jesus' work there.
What would you say to the Jesus in your children's imaginations if your children told you that Jesus encouraged them to call you "bad." What if they also said they experienced their spiritual Jesus joining them in calling you you "bad" and accused you of a poor job of raising them because of your faults. In contrast to your being "bad," they claim Jesus called them "good" and and encourages them that they don't have to respect you or your authority anymore when it disagrees with their spiritual Jesus. What would you tell your children and how would you react if they acted this way because they believed their internal spiritual Jesus was encouraging them to listen to the Holy Spirit as He inspired their imaginations instead of listening to you or the Bible when it says to respect the authorities God placed over them? Their justification for the "goodness" of their actions was the sense of comfort, healing, and freedom they felt as they obeyed their spiritual Jesus and did what He encouraged them to do?
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/17/2004 9:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Jo-Anne,
quote:
You ask me, "Please explain. I think Jesus would have loved to give that little boy a shiny red plane and a hug. He would have told him he was a good boy and would have just loved him because he was a person of infinite worth - a toddler held accountable for sin. And amazingly, He loved us enough to die for us "while we were yet sinners." He counted the cost and considered it to be a "joy set before him."
What is contrary to the "Jesus of the scriptures?"
Jesus of the scriptures never called any unsaved sinner "good" but explicitly reserved that term for God. He never came to people that were hurting, especially children, and encouraged them to call their legitimate authorities "bad" as the "Jesus" of Dr. Boyd does with him in his false story. Jesus never encourages a sinner to defend themselves and their "goodness" as does the Jesus in Dr. Boyd's imagination. The true Jesus encourages us by saying, "your sins are forgiven." The Jesus in Dr. Boyd's story never mentions the sins of the boy or brings them to mind so that He can forgive them and the boy can repent. The true Jesus proclaims repentance of sins and the gospel of salvation through His blood, the imaginary one only offers comforting imaginary airplanes. In the story, the only thing that young Dr. Boyd "repents" from is the true biblical concept that an unsaved sinner is "bad" and needs to repent from his own sins and trust in the cross and Jesus' work there.
What would you say to the Jesus in your children's imaginations if your children told you that Jesus encouraged them to call you "bad." What if they also said they experienced their spiritual Jesus joining them in calling you you "bad" and accused you of a poor job of raising them because of your faults. In contrast to your being "bad," they claim Jesus called them "good" and and encourages them that they don't have to respect you or your authority anymore when it disagrees with their spiritual Jesus. What would you tell your children and how would you react if they acted this way because they believed their internal spiritual Jesus was encouraging them to listen to the Holy Spirit as He inspired their imaginations instead of listening to you or the Bible when it says to respect the authorities God placed over them? Their justification for the "goodness" of their actions was the sense of comfort, healing, and freedom they felt as they obeyed their spiritual Jesus and did what He encouraged them to do?
Spen,
When I first read this healing vision that Dr Boyd shared, I thought the same thing you did. My first reaction was that calling his grandmother "bad" was not a good thing. But, after thinking about it...it is what a little boy would think. I think after reading the entire experience, what really shone through was his ability to forgive his grandmother and to love her, and also to recognize that Jesus had healed HER of some hurt as well.
Sometimes the adults in our lives are not deserving of obedience or even respect. When authority is abusive we need to recognize that. I don't think we need to respect abuse.
What do you think?
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/18/2004 1:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne,
I was glad to hear of God's provision for your son. It was a kind act that helped him join his friends. Thank you Father. quote:
Jo-Anne says:
Spen,
When I first read this healing vision that Dr Boyd shared, I thought the same thing you did. My first reaction was that calling his grandmother "bad" was not a good thing. But, after thinking about it...it is what a little boy would think. I think after reading the entire experience, what really shone through was his ability to forgive his grandmother and to love her, and also to recognize that Jesus had healed HER of some hurt as well.
Sometimes the adults in our lives are not deserving of obedience or even respect. When authority is abusive we need to recognize that. I don't think we need to respect abuse.
What do you think?
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Jo-Anne,
The issue isn't the plausibility of whether a little boy would think the way that Dr. Boyd describes. The issue is the plausibility of whether the true Jesus would act and speak the way the Dr. Boyd describes. According to scriptures you were correct in your first reaction, "that calling his grandmother "bad" was not a good thing." Jesus never defended himself or His goodness before the chief priests or Pilot. Jesus never encouraged others to do so either. Romans 13, commanding us to obey and respect the authorities God places over us, was written by Paul when Nero was on the throne, a man that history has labeled as one of the more abusive leaders that we have known.
You may believe, "Sometimes the adults in our lives are not deserving of obedience or even respect. When authority is abusive we need to recognize that. I don't think we need to respect abuse." but that doesn't make it true. Understanding that authority is abusive is much different than defending oneself and rebuking it, claiming that Jesus Himself told you do act this way. Show me in scriptures that your statement is supported and "true." If scriptures describe anouther way, then conform your beliefs and feelings to them, renew your mind and understanding to conform to the revelation of God. This is what it means pragmatically to believe in the authority of the scriptures.
I also fail to see that the grandmother was healed of some of her hurt as well. I don't think that the narrative went that far. She may have been dead by that time and thus wasn't affected at all by the events transpiring in Dr. Boyd's mind. Are you aware of something more or why do you believe this? Finally, you still have not really answered the question that I asked concerning how you would act if your children took this same position with you.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/18/2004 9:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Jo-Anne,
I was glad to hear of God's provision for your son. It was a kind act that helped him join his friends. Thank you Father. quote:
Jo-Anne says:
Spen,
When I first read this healing vision that Dr Boyd shared, I thought the same thing you did. My first reaction was that calling his grandmother "bad" was not a good thing. But, after thinking about it...it is what a little boy would think. I think after reading the entire experience, what really shone through was his ability to forgive his grandmother and to love her, and also to recognize that Jesus had healed HER of some hurt as well.
Sometimes the adults in our lives are not deserving of obedience or even respect. When authority is abusive we need to recognize that. I don't think we need to respect abuse.
What do you think?
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Jo-Anne,
The issue isn't the plausibility of whether a little boy would think the way that Dr. Boyd describes. The issue is the plausibility of whether the true Jesus would act and speak the way the Dr. Boyd describes. According to scriptures you were correct in your first reaction, "that calling his grandmother "bad" was not a good thing." Jesus never defended himself or His goodness before the chief priests or Pilot. Jesus never encouraged others to do so either. Romans 13, commanding us to obey and respect the authorities God places over us, was written by Paul when Nero was on the throne, a man that history has labeled as one of the more abusive leaders that we have known.
You may believe, "Sometimes the adults in our lives are not deserving of obedience or even respect. When authority is abusive we need to recognize that. I don't think we need to respect abuse." but that doesn't make it true. Understanding that authority is abusive is much different than defending oneself and rebuking it, claiming that Jesus Himself told you do act this way. Show me in scriptures that your statement is supported and "true." If scriptures describe anouther way, then conform your beliefs and feelings to them, renew your mind and understanding to conform to the revelation of God. This is what it means pragmatically to believe in the authority of the scriptures.
I also fail to see that the grandmother was healed of some of her hurt as well. I don't think that the narrative went that far. She may have been dead by that time and thus wasn't affected at all by the events transpiring in Dr. Boyd's mind. Are you aware of something more or why do you believe this? Finally, you still have not really answered the question that I asked concerning how you would act if your children took this same position with you.
Spen,
There were some adults that I could have confronted in my life for the wounds that they inflicted on me as a little girl, but I choose to "take the high road." I believe that you can forgive without confronting. There are times to confront lovingly, but there are times when it would cause more pain and isn't necessary. That is why Dr Boyd does not advocate going to the person who wounded you and "letting them have it." This was only done in a vision, and was not something he conjured up, but a vision that He claims the Holy Spirit gave him.
Spen, if it brought healing (which it did), and forgiveness, and transformation, then I still fail to understand your objection. Beyond that who are we really to question what the Holy Spirit is doing in the life of another believer.
I don't believe in "lashing out at people." I do not believe that Jesus respected the religious "authorities" of His day. He called them "white washed tombs," "vipers," "hypocrites." He willingly lay down His life because it would accomplish our salvation, because we were "the joy set before Him." It had nothing to do with submission or respect. Abuse deserves neither. That does not justify stooping to the same level however, and Jeus did not "stoop" to their level.
He took the high road.
Good night Spen and God Bless (and yes, that was a wonderful act of kindness on Owen's behalf...an answer to prayer). 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/19/2004 1:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Jo-Anne,
I was glad to hear of God's provision for your son. It was a kind act that helped him join his friends. Thank you Father. quote:
Jo-Anne says:
Spen,
When I first read this healing vision that Dr Boyd shared, I thought the same thing you did. My first reaction was that calling his grandmother "bad" was not a good thing. But, after thinking about it...it is what a little boy would think. I think after reading the entire experience, what really shone through was his ability to forgive his grandmother and to love her, and also to recognize that Jesus had healed HER of some hurt as well.
Sometimes the adults in our lives are not deserving of obedience or even respect. When authority is abusive we need to recognize that. I don't think we need to respect abuse.
What do you think?
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Jo-Anne,
The issue isn't the plausibility of whether a little boy would think the way that Dr. Boyd describes. The issue is the plausibility of whether the true Jesus would act and speak the way the Dr. Boyd describes. According to scriptures you were correct in your first reaction, "that calling his grandmother "bad" was not a good thing." Jesus never defended himself or His goodness before the chief priests or Pilot. Jesus never encouraged others to do so either. Romans 13, commanding us to obey and respect the authorities God places over us, was written by Paul when Nero was on the throne, a man that history has labeled as one of the more abusive leaders that we have known.
You may believe, "Sometimes the adults in our lives are not deserving of obedience or even respect. When authority is abusive we need to recognize that. I don't think we need to respect abuse." but that doesn't make it true. Understanding that authority is abusive is much different than defending oneself and rebuking it, claiming that Jesus Himself told you do act this way. Show me in scriptures that your statement is supported and "true." If scriptures describe anouther way, then conform your beliefs and feelings to them, renew your mind and understanding to conform to the revelation of God. This is what it means pragmatically to believe in the authority of the scriptures.
I also fail to see that the grandmother was healed of some of her hurt as well. I don't think that the narrative went that far. She may have been dead by that time and thus wasn't affected at all by the events transpiring in Dr. Boyd's mind. Are you aware of something more or why do you believe this? Finally, you still have not really answered the question that I asked concerning how you would act if your children took this same position with you.
Spen,
There were some adults that I could have confronted in my life for the wounds that they inflicted on me as a little girl, but I choose to "take the high road." I believe that you can forgive without confronting. There are times to confront lovingly, but there are times when it would cause more pain and isn't necessary. That is why Dr Boyd does not advocate going to the person who wounded you and "letting them have it." This was only done in a vision, and was not something he conjured up, but a vision that He claims the Holy Spirit gave him.
Spen, if it brought healing (which it did), and forgiveness, and transformation, then I still fail to understand your objection. Beyond that who are we really to question what the Holy Spirit is doing in the life of another believer.
I don't believe in "lashing out at people." I do not believe that Jesus respected the religious "authorities" of His day. He called them "white washed tombs," "vipers," "hypocrites." He willingly lay down His life because it would accomplish our salvation, because we were "the joy set before Him." It had nothing to do with submission or respect. Abuse deserves neither. That does not justify stooping to the same level however, and Jeus did not "stoop" to their level.
He took the high road.
Good night Spen and God Bless (and yes, that was a wonderful act of kindness on Owen's behalf...an answer to prayer).
Jo-Anne,
We are not speaking of the religious authorities in this case, we are speaking of the civil and parental authorities. This is very much in common with the governmental issues that Dr. Boyd is preaching on. Jesus respected and honored the authority of Pilate, the abuser, in his role as the civil governor and bearer of the sword. However, when Jesus spoke to the religious authorities it was on the basis of "content." These men were whitewashed tombs BECAUSE they were not obeying and following the scriptures. They had made their traditions and own teachings more important that the Law of God. He tells them, "in vain do you worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men." This was why He chastized them. They stole widows houses, they condoned not caring for parents, they misunderstood that the temple was more important than the gold in the temple. They valued their positions and power more than they valued the truth. Jesus judged them on content and their inconsistencies of what they did compared to the scriptures that they claimed to believe in and support proved them to be hypocrites.
Romans 13 and the command of the Law in the OT and Jesus' affirmation of obedience and respect to parents in the New Testament seems fairly direct concerning a child's obligation towards a grandmother. I believe that you see this and try to find an excuse when you say, "That is why Dr Boyd does not advocate going to the person who wounded you and "letting them have it." This was only done in a vision, and was not something he conjured up, but a vision that He claims the Holy Spirit gave him." Dr. Boyd calims that the Holy Spirit and a spiritual Jesus gave him that vision. This vision is contrary to, "That is why Dr Boyd does not advocate going to the person who wounded you and "letting them have it." It is inconsistent with Dr. Boyd's own words, assuming that you are correct in your statement. It is also inconsistent with the biblical Jesus and the biblical Holy Spirit. The vision has been discerned as defective and not according to the teachings of scripture. Dr. Boyd, in confessing and teaching it, is offering us the precepts of men instead of the Jesus of the Bible.
Jo-Anne, I hope that you do not really believe, "Spen, if it brought healing (which it did), and forgiveness, and transformation, then I still fail to understand your objection. Beyond that who are we really to question what the Holy Spirit is doing in the life of another believer." The fact that someone feels better does not mean that it is the Holy Spirit. John the apostle, in 1 John 4:1, gave us the tool on how to determine if it really is the Holy Spirit or an imposter. "Feeling" or "bringing healing" isn't what he used to determine and discern. The content of the message that was being promoted was the issue. The "Jesus" and spirit described by Dr. Boyd in his vision fail the test, regardless of whether it "worked." We are commanded to test the message that others bring when they calim it to be "resting in Christ" and the inspiration of the Spirit. If we fail to do so we disobey 1 John 4:1. I would ask you, "What gives you the belief that you should not question what people are claiming the Holy Spirit is doing in their life when John commands us to do it?"
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/20/2004 7:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Spen,
(Spen) We are not speaking of the religious authorities in this case, we are speaking of the civil and parental authorities. This is very much in common with the governmental issues that Dr. Boyd is preaching on. Jesus respected and honored the authority of Pilate, the abuser, in his role as the civil governor and bearer of the sword. However, when Jesus spoke to the religious authorities it was on the basis of "content." These men were whitewashed tombs BECAUSE they were not obeying and following the scriptures. They had made their traditions and own teachings more important that the Law of God. He tells them, "in vain do you worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men." This was why He chastized them. They stole widows houses, they condoned not caring for parents, they misunderstood that the temple was more important than the gold in the temple. They valued their positions and power more than they valued the truth. Jesus judged them on content and their inconsistencies of what they did compared to the scriptures that they claimed to believe in and support proved them to be hypocrites.
(Jo-Anne) Thanks for explaining the difference. I see what you're saying and agree. The explanation of "content" makes sense to me. (See, I'm not always stubborn! )
(Spen) Romans 13 and the command of the Law in the OT and Jesus' affirmation of obedience and respect to parents in the New Testament seems fairly direct concerning a child's obligation towards a grandmother. I believe that you see this and try to find an excuse when you say, "That is why Dr Boyd does not advocate going to the person who wounded you and "letting them have it." This was only done in a vision, and was not something he conjured up, but a vision that He claims the Holy Spirit gave him." Dr. Boyd calims that the Holy Spirit and a spiritual Jesus gave him that vision. This vision is contrary to, "That is why Dr Boyd does not advocate going to the person who wounded you and "letting them have it." It is inconsistent with Dr. Boyd's own words, assuming that you are correct in your statement. It is also inconsistent with the biblical Jesus and the biblical Holy Spirit. The vision has been discerned as defective and not according to the teachings of scripture. Dr. Boyd, in confessing and teaching it, is offering us the precepts of men instead of the Jesus of the Bible.
(Jo-Anne) Spen, I believe that God gives us visions. I know that we only now understand in part. I do believe that the "litmus test" for prophecy is seeing if it truly does encourage, upbuild and console. If it does none of these, then I do not believe it is inspired by God. This vision did all of the above and carried over to the body of Christ. Dr Boyd did not disrespect his grandmother (that we know of). But, then again, what little boy or girl has never been disrespectful? The vision was real, true to how a little boy would respond if he could. Our emotions are real. We get angry. That was the biggest surprise to me of all, in my healing - the depth of anger I felt at family members, and even at God. He understands. He sees through all that. It is a healthy thing to be able to express our anger, but not use it to hurt others. My way of doing that was through a letter that I never shared, with the exception of a prayer counsellor. Perhaps Dr Boyd's way of doing that was in a vision, with Jesus present?
(Spen) "What gives you the belief that you should not question what people are claiming the Holy Spirit is doing in their life when John commands us to do it?"
(Jo-Anne) If it doesn't look like love, if it's contrary to scripture or if it doesn't look like the picture that we have of the Father in Jesus Christ, then yes, I would hesitate to say that it is inspired, that the Holy Spirit is involved - but, I would be very careful in looking at things that are not "black and white" and saying that they proclaim "a different gospel" or an "imaginary Jesus." I would look at that person's life and heart and ministry and not dismiss something simply because I haven't experienced it or I can't find it in black and white in the Word. If this were the case I wouldn't have gone ahead in that three hour session with a prayer counsellor, perhaps would not have had the vision that I had, and most certainly would not be talking to you today. 
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/20/2004 8:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne,
You say, "Spen, I believe that God gives us visions. I know that we only now understand in part. I do believe that the "litmus test" for prophecy is seeing if it truly does encourage, upbuild and console. If it does none of these, then I do not believe it is inspired by God."
I think that you must not mean this. While scripture does tell us that prophecy is FOR "encouragement, upbuilding and consolation," it doesn't say or imply that this is the litmus test for true prophecy. False prophecy can also encourage, upbuild and console - to the listeners destruction. A consistent feature of a false prophet is proclaiming peace, peace where there is no peace. False assurance is a fruit of false prophets.
Look at what God told Jeremiah concerning the consoling and comforting prophets in Jeremiah 14:13, "But, “Ah, Lord GOD!” I said, “Look, the prophets are telling them, ‘You will not see the sword nor will you have famine, but I will give you lasting peace in this place.’” Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying falsehood in My name. I have neither sent them nor commanded them nor spoken to them; they are prophesying to you a false vision, divination, futility and the deception of their own minds. “Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the prophets who are prophesying in My name, although it was not I who sent them—yet they keep saying, ‘There will be no sword or famine in this land’—by sword and famine those prophets shall meet their end! “The people also to whom they are prophesying will be thrown out into the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and there will be no one to bury them—neither them, nor their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters—for I will pour out their own wickedness on them." These men had some kind of "renewed" mind that only spoke consoling and comforting words. They would pass your "litmus test."
Look at Ezekiel 13 and the message of peace brought by the prophets according to your litmus test. "Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, “Because you have spoken falsehood and seen a lie, therefore behold, I am against you,” declares the Lord GOD.“So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord GOD. “It is definitely because they have misled My people by saying, ‘Peace!’ when there is no peace. And when anyone builds a wall, behold, they plaster it over with whitewash; so tell those who plaster it over with whitewash, that it will fall. A flooding rain will come, and you, O hailstones, will fall; and a violent wind will break out. “Behold, when the wall has fallen, will you not be asked, ‘Where is the plaster with which you plastered it?’” Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, “I will make a violent wind break out in My wrath. There will also be in My anger a flooding rain and hailstones to consume it in wrath. “So I will tear down the wall which you plastered over with whitewash and bring it down to the ground, so that its foundation is laid bare; and when it falls, you will be consumed in its midst. And you will know that I am the LORD. “Thus I will spend My wrath on the wall and on those who have plastered it over with whitewash; and I will say to you, ‘The wall is gone and its plasterers are gone, along with the prophets of Israel who prophesy to Jerusalem, and who see visions of peace for her when there is no peace,’ declares the Lord GOD."
God tells us in Jeremiah 27:13 concerning the prophets who spoke conforting words to Israel,
“So do not listen to the words of the prophets who speak to you, saying, ‘You will not serve the king of Babylon,’ for they prophesy a lie to you; for I have not sent them,” declares the LORD, “but they prophesy falsely in My name, in order that I may drive you out and that you may perish, you and the prophets who prophesy to you.”
2 Chronicles 18:10, "Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made horns of iron for himself and said, “Thus says the LORD, ‘With these you shall gore the Arameans until they are consumed.’” All the prophets were prophesying thus, saying, “Go up to Ramoth-gilead and succeed, for the LORD will give it into the hand of the king.”
A better "litmus test" is whether the prophets speak the comfort, consolation and upbuilding message of the gospel and exhort us to believe it. We find this test in 1 John 4:1, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess (lack of confessing, NOT denying)Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world." Dr. Boyd confesses in his example a spiritual Jesus that brings comfort in vision of a false story. May God grant us ears to hear the gospel that promises freedom and eternal healing in the blood and sacrificial death of a man who was God.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/20/2004 9:00 PM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by spenlake
You say, "Spen, I believe that God gives us visions. I know that we only now understand in part. I do believe that the "litmus test" for prophecy is seeing if it truly does encourage, upbuild and console. If it does none of these, then I do not believe it is inspired by God."
(Spen) I think that you must not mean this. While scripture does tell us that prophecy is FOR "encouragement, upbuilding and consolation," it doesn't say or imply that this is the litmus test for true prophecy. False prophecy can also encourage, upbuild and console - to the listeners destruction. A consistent feature of a false prophet is proclaiming peace, peace where there is no peace. False assurance is a fruit of false prophets.
(Jo-Anne) The enemy does not come to encourage, upbuild and console. He comes to steal, kill and destroy. At first glance he might look good, but quickly "reveals his true colours." So yes, I believe that is a "litmus test" for prophecy.
(Spen) Look at what God told Jeremiah concerning the consoling and comforting prophets in Jeremiah 14:13, "But, “Ah, Lord GOD!” I said, “Look, the prophets are telling them, ‘You will not see the sword nor will you have famine, but I will give you lasting peace in this place.’” Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying falsehood in My name. I have neither sent them nor commanded them nor spoken to them; they are prophesying to you a false vision, divination, futility and the deception of their own minds. “Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the prophets who are prophesying in My name, although it was not I who sent them—yet they keep saying, ‘There will be no sword or famine in this land’—by sword and famine those prophets shall meet their end! “The people also to whom they are prophesying will be thrown out into the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and there will be no one to bury them—neither them, nor their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters—for I will pour out their own wickedness on them." These men had some kind of "renewed" mind that only spoke consoling and comforting words. They would pass your "litmus test."
(Jo-Anne) It's not my "litmus test." It's God's. And what you are describing is not prophecy, but prophetic and definitely not something that was encouraging, that built up the body of Christ, or consoled. It obviously quickly recognizable as false.
(Spen) Look at Ezekiel 13 and the message of peace brought by the prophets according to your litmus test. "Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, “Because you have spoken falsehood and seen a lie, therefore behold, I am against you,” declares the Lord GOD.“So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord GOD. “It is definitely because they have misled My people by saying, ‘Peace!’ when there is no peace. And when anyone builds a wall, behold, they plaster it over with whitewash; so tell those who plaster it over with whitewash, that it will fall. A flooding rain will come, and you, O hailstones, will fall; and a violent wind will break out. “Behold, when the wall has fallen, will you not be asked, ‘Where is the plaster with which you plastered it?’” Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, “I will make a violent wind break out in My wrath. There will also be in My anger a flooding rain and hailstones to consume it in wrath. “So I will tear down the wall which you plastered over with whitewash and bring it down to the ground, so that its foundation is laid bare; and when it falls, you will be consumed in its midst. And you will know that I am the LORD. “Thus I will spend My wrath on the wall and on those who have plastered it over with whitewash; and I will say to you, ‘The wall is gone and its plasterers are gone, along with the prophets of Israel who prophesy to Jerusalem, and who see visions of peace for her when there is no peace,’ declares the Lord GOD."
(Jo-Anne) Again, this is prophetic...not prophecy. Paul said that he desired that we all should prophecy. I rarely see the prophetic. In fact, I've only seen it a few times and it was judged by the humility and love and accountability in which it was given. It had to have the "Amen" of the Spirit to be recognized.
(Spen) Dr. Boyd confesses in his example a spiritual Jesus that brings comfort in vision of a false story. May God grant us ears to hear the gospel that promises freedom and eternal healing in the blood and sacrificial death of a man who was God.
(Jo-Anne) Spen...His sacrificial death was the beginning of a journey of freedom and eternal healing. Salvation is past, present and future. A "spiritual Jesus" does not bring comfort in vision of a false story. You are bending this to make it fit. It doesn't fit. It's like trying to make a puzzle piece fit where it doesn't belong. And Boyd (as others) did not just receive comfort. Sure, comfort is important to Jesus. He comforted people. He sent us His comforter. But forgiveness, healing and transformation are paramount to Him. That is what the vision is all about. The book is about "experiencing Jesus through the power of imaginative prayer," not about imagining Jesus, or an imaginary Jesus...but experiencing Jesus through our God given, Holy Spirit inspired prayer (which uses our imagination).
Spen, we have ears to hear. We also need eyes to see.
(I've seen the light)
Nite and God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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