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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/29/2004 6:27 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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Alan Rhoda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 4/29/2004 8:52 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Is it ethical for us to judge the subjective experiences of other believers as being true or false. For example, can we rightly judge an experience in a brother or sister's life as being an "anti-event" thereby proclaiming that a work of the Holy Spirit is not...nada!
Good question, Jo Anne.
Is it ethical to judge the subjective experiences of another? That depends on whether the one judging is in a good position to do so. For example, if someone tells me that they saw God the Father face to face, then based on what Scripture says about how "no man can see God and live" I would judge that that person didn't really see God the Father. I can make that judgment because I have reliable information that contradicts the claim. My judgment, of course, would not be that they had no experience (or that it was some kind of 'anti-event'), but rather that they must have misinterpreted whatever it was that they experienced.
The general point is this: We are justified in making any judgment that we can adequately justify. If someone reports a subjective experience of X, and I have good reason to think that experiences of X are highly improbable or that the person is not a reliable witness, then I have good reason to judge that they probably did not experience what they said they did. The reasonableness of that negative judgment can change, however, if the improbable experience can be independently corroborated.
As far as 'anti-events' go (I know you didn't coin the term), I think it's a poor term for what it denotes, i.e., an event that cancels out or undoes a prior event. The term is misleading because an 'anti-event' is still an event, yet the term seems to imply that it is not. Better terms would be 'cancelling event' or 'reversing event'.
God bless,
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/30/2004 9:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Alan Rhoda
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Is it ethical for us to judge the subjective experiences of other believers as being true or false. For example, can we rightly judge an experience in a brother or sister's life as being an "anti-event" thereby proclaiming that a work of the Holy Spirit is not...nada!
Good question, Jo Anne.
Is it ethical to judge the subjective experiences of another? That depends on whether the one judging is in a good position to do so. For example, if someone tells me that they saw God the Father face to face, then based on what Scripture says about how "no man can see God and live" I would judge that that person didn't really see God the Father. I can make that judgment because I have reliable information that contradicts the claim. My judgment, of course, would not be that they had no experience (or that it was some kind of 'anti-event'), but rather that they must have misinterpreted whatever it was that they experienced.
The general point is this: We are justified in making any judgment that we can adequately justify. If someone reports a subjective experience of X, and I have good reason to think that experiences of X are highly improbable or that the person is not a reliable witness, then I have good reason to judge that they probably did not experience what they said they did. The reasonableness of that negative judgment can change, however, if the improbable experience can be independently corroborated.
As far as 'anti-events' go (I know you didn't coin the term), I think it's a poor term for what it denotes, i.e., an event that cancels out or undoes a prior event. The term is misleading because an 'anti-event' is still an event, yet the term seems to imply that it is not. Better terms would be 'cancelling event' or 'reversing event'.
God bless,
Alan
Thank you Alan. This really helps me in my understanding. I've realized in the last day or two that you can judge without being judgmental...that the two do not necessarily go hand in hand.
I appreciate what you've said about the term "anti-event" as well as I found that whole thing very confusing and somewhat offensive (not to me personally) in the sense that it communicates that what happened in the life of the believer who experienced this was not of God.
I agree. If a believer has a vision or dream that transforms an earlier (wounding for example) event in their lives - that a better way to refer to the new event would be as a cancelling event or reversing event. That is a good thought.
What do you know about cataphatic prayer? Have you experienced this? Have you read Seeing is Believing? I've almost finished. It is challenging but rewarding.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/5/2004 3:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne,
What if we called an fictional anti-event a "false replacement story." This false replacement story is used to rework the factual memory of an event. Thus, a false "replacement" event is "experienced" internally so that it somehow minimizes the factual one. Freedom is found in experiencing the false.
This is different from reviewing or re-looking at a factual event from a new perspective or based upon knowledge that was previously unknown. As long as the new perspective is factually true, there is no danger. A simple analogy would be that you had an experience in which you believed your best friend betrayed you. If, however, additional facts come to light that prove that she didn't betray you at all, this would make you feel better. This would also not be a false replacement story but a true story that was previously unknown.
I think that the gospel can bring freedom to painful memories when used in this "truthful" context. When we realize that God has always loved us and died for our sins to reconcile us to Him when we deserved punishment and damnation, this is powerful. This understanding, when applied to past events may bring a measure of healing. In this context, however, both the original painful event and the gospel still remain true. There has been no false history.
Perhaps this will help to explain what I mean and the enormous difference between the truth and the false.
Bless you,
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/5/2004 9:56 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Jo-Anne,
What if we called an fictional anti-event a "false replacement story." This false replacement story is used to rework the factual memory of an event. Thus, a false "replacement" event is "experienced" internally so that it somehow minimizes the factual one. Freedom is found in experiencing the false.
This is different from reviewing or re-looking at a factual event from a new perspective or based upon knowledge that was previously unknown. As long as the new perspective is factually true, there is no danger. A simple analogy would be that you had an experience in which you believed your best friend betrayed you. If, however, additional facts come to light that prove that she didn't betray you at all, this would make you feel better. This would also not be a false replacement story but a true story that was previously unknown.
I think that the gospel can bring freedom to painful memories when used in this "truthful" context. When we realize that God has always loved us and died for our sins to reconcile us to Him when we deserved punishment and damnation, this is powerful. This understanding, when applied to past events may bring a measure of healing. In this context, however, both the original painful event and the gospel still remain true. There has been no false history.
Perhaps this will help to explain what I mean and the enormous difference between the truth and the false.
Bless you,
Spen,
Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit can supernaturally heal through visions and dreams? Have you never experienced this - either in prayer or when you were meditating on God or asleep as a dream? I realize we need to be very careful and it needs to agree with scripture and with the person of Jesus Christ - but WHO is Jesus to you Spen? Do you realize that God speaks to us through images...throughout scripture? The tender shepherd (now he's not a shepherd, never was...does that mean it's false? The bright morning star, the Lily of The Valley, the Rose of Sharon, The Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Bread of Life, Living Water, Cornerstone... He is none of those things literally. These are images to help us relate to Him and they reveal truth about who He is. He created us with our ability to understand and relate to images and I believe one of the ways that He transforms us is by using concrete images for us to relate to. It is not the vision of dream that heals - it is His Spirit and that is what we need to realize. The "red airplane" did not heal Dr Boyd...Jesus did through the work of the Holy Spirit. What did this communicate to a toddler about the Father's love. The Father relates to us on whatever level we need Him too. He is tender and compassionate. He intervenes supernaturally. He transforms. I believe you are limiting what you believe He is able to do (not limiting Him at all) to bring about healing and you are reacting out of fear - fear that somehow this might not be the truth. What the Holy Spirit does in our lives is truth. It may not be visible to another, but that does not mean that our God given, Holy Spirit inspired visions and dreams are false.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
I appreciate the graciousness with which you express your beliefs Spen and I really appreciate your prayer for our son Owen.
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/6/2004 9:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Jo-Anne,
The illustrations that you gave and cited are true. God has many names in the Old Testament that describe different aspects of His character. There is, however, a difference between the truth and the false. This difference is essential. The devil is the father of lies. The Holy Spirit doesn't lie.
You are discerning backwards and this is what I blieve is getting you into a muddle about the difference between truth/false. Because you see an event as "good" you believe that it is the Holy Spirit. Because you believe it is the Holy Spirit you believe that it is true.
1 John 4:1 tells us to do it in the front to back. We are to test the spirits by the content of their message BEFORE we beleive them to be the Spirit of Christ. If they fail this test then they are not the Spirit of Christ, no matter what the event and no matter haw full of light and comfort they seem.
Forget, for a moment the "results" of Dr. Boyd's example. It is inconsistent within God to inspire a false replacement event for any reason. He cannot lie, even for good. Because we are given a false replacement event by a spirit, we can know that this isn't the Holy Spirit of Truth.
Your calling God the Good shepherd is not at all the same. This is a true statement. None of your titles or terms were false. A false history IS false. They are different. The content of the message is the MOST important thing, the sign or wonder or miracle is secondary. I believe in spirits and miracles and false signs and false wonders. Which are which can only be decided by the content. A false replacement event is a false thing, the Truth does not bring us the false to find freedom.
I do hope and pray your son and your family are doing well and that God manifests His grace and mercy to you all.
Spen,
How do you discern what is a "false replacement event" and what is a vision or dream that has been inspired by the Holy Spirit?
What criteria do you follow?
Our son is a little better today...still not back at school, but getting around a little easier (around the house). Hard to see your kids in pain!
God Bless (and thanks for asking about him by the way),
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/7/2004 3:40 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Spen,
How do you discern what is a "false replacement event" and what is a vision or dream that has been inspired by the Holy Spirit?
What criteria do you follow?
Jo-Anne,
A false replacement event is something that is created to REPLACE another historical one with something that never happened. If Dr. Boyd had looked at his memory of the event in a fresh perspective of something that had happened, for instance, "Perhaps my grandmother was so full of grief from her daughter's death and our demands on her that it was difficult," this is different. The statement does not replace what happened but maybe explains them more fully in a way a 2 year old couldn't then understand.
There is never a vision in the Bible that replaces a real event with a false. I will give you a time when fresh perspective helped change the perception though. When the King of Aram sent troops to surround Samaria and Elisha, the servant looked out and was afraid. Elisha told him not to worry and prayed God would open his servant's eyes. Then the servant saw the mountian covered with chariots of fire. These were real and not false. I believe that theses spiritual chariots existed. When the servant saw them he was comforted. This kind of vision I believe in. It could happen now, but it wouldn't be a false one that replaces truth.
Spen,
This may be one of those "circular" discussions you were talking about previously. I always end up with more questions than answers in our discussions. Part of the reason why I am "sticking to my guns" in this could be because I experienced a similar, healing, transformative event during prayer. There is not a doubt that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit to show me that He had truly healed me and set me free from the fear that gripped my life. We're talking 43 years old. That is a long, long time to be afraid Spen. That fear ruled my life and no longer has any part in my life two years later (other than the healthy kind of fear that we all should have).
I do not believe, for a moment, that Dr Boyd was implying that the vision that he had was a REPLACEMENT for the traumatic, wounding experience that he had in his life as a toddler. BUT, having said that, in a very real sense Jesus did replace it with something wonderful to remember...a milepost if you will. When God does something in my life that I consider to be a milepost, I drive down a mental post and I do not ever need to look back beyond that (at least not ever in the same way). Even the Bible speaks in "replacement" terms. "He's given us "beauty for ashes," the "oil of joy for mourning." Yes, I hear what you're saying and I agree that He is the truth and that we need to be grounded in Him, solidly. But I also believe that sometimes He speaks to us in unconventional, but no less miraculous and transforming ways. I have a much broader vision now of what it means to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. I had a very narrow perspective on that previous to the healing that took place in my life.
Spen, it's hard to argue with personal experience and with "fruit." Sure, the secular world may offer some healing but they cannot manufacture spiritual "fruit" through that. Only the Holy Spirit can do that.
I agree with you about the chariots. It may be that his eyes were opened to see the heavenly army that is present. We are in a cosmic battle and we do not see the forces that wage war for or against us (normally). But when our eyes are closed and our heads are bowed and we are focusing on Him or crying out to Him, and He gives us a vision in our mind that heals some wounding memory or an actual event that took place in our lives, then we should be ready to accept that as a gift from His hands.
You may think that I am leaning too much on experience. I do firmly believe in being rooted and grounded in the Word. But I do not exclude miraculous intervention by the Holy Spirit (as long as it truly does line up with the Word of God and the character of the Father as we see in Jesus).
Your last line here Spen; "It wouldn't be a false one that replaces the truth." I would say that it is the truth that replaces a lie (meaning that the lie is a deception of the enemy and it caused us to believe something about ourselves, or something about God that isn't true. That is how the enemy works. He works on our minds. So, why shouldn't the Holy Spirit work on our minds at least as powerfully - if we are open and willing to have Him do that? He desires our co=operation in our healing.
Perhaps you've only experienced healing/transformation in your life in one way. I can understand that, and that's fine. But be careful not to exclude the work of the Holy Spirit if it appears "other" than you have experienced in your own life.
He is amazing. I think we agree on that!
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/7/2004 5:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Annequote:
Your last line here Spen; "It wouldn't be a false one that replaces the truth." I would say that it is the truth that replaces a lie (meaning that the lie is a deception of the enemy and it caused us to believe something about ourselves, or something about God that isn't true. That is how the enemy works. He works on our minds. So, why shouldn't the Holy Spirit work on our minds at least as powerfully - if we are open and willing to have Him do that? He desires our co=operation in our healing.
Perhaps you've only experienced healing/transformation in your life in one way. I can understand that, and that's fine. But be careful not to exclude the work of the Holy Spirit if it appears "other" than you have experienced in your own life.
He is amazing. I think we agree on that!
My thoughts exactly! The enemy wants us to be trapped in the lie that was installed from the event. Jesus wants us to renew our minds. God wants to heal us through the Holy Spirit but we need to be open. The Holy Spirit does not work in "one" way but rather meets us where we are at. In this type of exercise a person can apply the truth of who God tells us we are instead of allowing the event to define us.
It's okay if some don't particularly like Dr. Boyd's exercise as presented in the book, however do not discredit the working of the Holy Spirit in someone's life. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is FREEDOM. God wants us to be free from the lie and walk in the truth. The truth is found in the Word and can be applied to heal memories. The Holy Spirit can and does work in such an exercise to bring truth to the situation from the past event. Reworking the memory is just a means in which the person can be set free from bondage.
Spen Lake, I encourage you to think past your box. God is involved in our world today creating ways to communicate with us -- God interacts with the world outside the box. If Dr. Boyd's exercise helps SOME to be renewed in their minds and draws them closer to Christ then I say =YES!=
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/8/2004 2:48 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Jo-Annequote:
Your last line here Spen; "It wouldn't be a false one that replaces the truth." I would say that it is the truth that replaces a lie (meaning that the lie is a deception of the enemy and it caused us to believe something about ourselves, or something about God that isn't true. That is how the enemy works. He works on our minds. So, why shouldn't the Holy Spirit work on our minds at least as powerfully - if we are open and willing to have Him do that? He desires our co=operation in our healing.
Perhaps you've only experienced healing/transformation in your life in one way. I can understand that, and that's fine. But be careful not to exclude the work of the Holy Spirit if it appears "other" than you have experienced in your own life.
He is amazing. I think we agree on that!
My thoughts exactly! The enemy wants us to be trapped in the lie that was installed from the event. Jesus wants us to renew our minds. God wants to heal us through the Holy Spirit but we need to be open. The Holy Spirit does not work in "one" way but rather meets us where we are at. In this type of exercise a person can apply the truth of who God tells us we are instead of allowing the event to define us.
It's okay if some don't particularly like Dr. Boyd's exercise as presented in the book, however do not discredit the working of the Holy Spirit in someone's life. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is FREEDOM. God wants us to be free from the lie and walk in the truth. The truth is found in the Word and can be applied to heal memories. The Holy Spirit can and does work in such an exercise to bring truth to the situation from the past event. Reworking the memory is just a means in which the person can be set free from bondage.
Spen Lake, I encourage you to think past your box. God is involved in our world today creating ways to communicate with us -- God interacts with the world outside the box. If Dr. Boyd's exercise helps SOME to be renewed in their minds and draws them closer to Christ then I say =YES!=
Quest and Jo-Anne,
If you read my bio I have not come from a "dry, dead, denominational" background. I have spent most of my life in a Christian culture that has enthusiastically pursued a "pragmatic" spirituality. I mean by this that my parents and those around me believed that they were entering into spiritual dimensions that hadn't been seen since the early church. I have personally met many of leaders of this movement and spent great amounts of time under their teachings. I have seen the "fruit" of this and it isn't as glowing as you seem to believe. It isn't because I don't believe in spirits and the supernatural that I am cautious, it is because I do.
The "fruit" that I am witnessing in the honest dialogues with you both is deeply concerning. A pragmatic "if it works it must be good" has so permeated your beliefs that the "means" to achieve temporal comfort have become neutral or unimportant, especially if we give them Christian labels. Your reference point has become your experience and not the scriptures. This is obvious in the posts. I know it is true because I experienced it, therefore this is what the scriptures mean. The experience validates the scriptures and not the inverse.
While I believe that there are other issues with Dr. Boyd's book as well, the concept of finding freedom in a lie is not my exaggeration. This is what his example describes. You explain that because the ultimate freedom he finds there is "truth," the lie is an acceptable means. But scriptures tell us that no lie is of the truth, including this one.
While God may give us temporal comfort now, I don't believe that this is a right or unconditional promise. Many many Godly people have simply suffered and died as they existed in this world. The true comfort we expect and experience now is the certainty of the promise of eternal comfort we will have at His return. Until then we suffer, experience tribulations, and exist amidst the evil of this world. Does God still bring us comfort, temporal comfort now? Yes. He even commands us to pray to Him and ask for help and healing in our tribulations. However, He doesn't intervene all the time and often He sustains us in our tribulations with the faith that there is a city where the architect and builder is God, and it is ours. Thus, I do pray for Owen, my own children and myself, beseeching a loving God for His mercy and that His coming millennium be manifest now for our immediate comfort. And God does intervene as He chooses.
There may be a link between the pragmatism and the need or strong desire for comfort achieved with any means. The passage that I gave you in Jeremiah 44 concerning the people giving offerings to the queen of heaven describes a pragmatic approach to find comfort. The means were not considered neutral. True resting in Christ cannot include the false or be achieved by vicariously experiencing the false. I haven't said that finding comfort for painful memories cannot be found in experiencing the false - it seems that it can. We become so confused, however, that we fail to distinguish between true resting in Christ and finding comfort in experiencing the false (even if we feel it leads us to truth). When this happens it is the visible "fruit" that we have wandered from our moorings of the scriptures. This is the fruit I see and it makes me sad.
I think that we have arrived at a blockage in our discussions because I don't have anything else I know what to do to explain that finding freedom through experiencing the false isn't Christianity. Instead of pursuing freedom in the false, it would be better to keep your pain and trust a loving God who died for you; that he will take it and heal it and wipe every tear from your eyes when He returns. This is "resting in Christ," waiting confidently for our Christ and King to return and patiently enduring the tribulations and pain that we experience with hope and certainty that we can trust Him and His promises. We have "rest" because He promised and He is the "Christ." Though now we don't see Him, we believe. The outcome isn't "healed memories" but the salvation of our souls. I'll take this outcome over a temporal memory. If it is true, how bad can the rest of life actually be? It will be over soon and it will all be better and made right. Eternal life, eternal salvation...thank you Jesus.
In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/8/2004 4:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen Lake,
We may have come to a standstill but before we end our dialogue I would like to ask these questions. I understand what you're saying about lying not being biblical. I can see why you would be concerned about that. I understand your concern about Dr. Boyd calling the exercise resting in Christ when the outcome is achieved through deception. I believe lies and deception are works of the enemy. However, do you believe that if a person daydreams, dreams, or imagines in a unreal/created way they are being deceived? Do you think that going back into a painful memory and reworking it in the imagination is deceiving? Do you believe the Holy Spirit can be a part of our imagination and dreams? And do you believe Jesus can use our imagination and dreams to move us toward himself? I am curious.
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/8/2004 6:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Spen Lake,
We may have come to a standstill but before we end our dialogue I would like to ask these questions. I understand what you're saying about lying not being biblical. I can see why you would be concerned about that. I understand your concern about Dr. Boyd calling the exercise resting in Christ when the outcome is achieved through deception. I believe lies and deception are works of the enemy. However, do you believe that if a person daydreams, dreams, or imagines in a unreal/created way they are being deceived? Do you think that going back into a painful memory and reworking it in the imagination is deceiving? Do you believe the Holy Spirit can be a part of our imagination and dreams? And do you believe Jesus can use our imagination and dreams to move us toward himself? I am curious.
Thank you.
Quest,
Fiction is not sin nor deception. It is a valid vehicle for communication of abstract and even concrete ideas. Daydreaming or creating an imaginary world is also not a sin. I suppose to the extent that one believed that they were real or not would determine if they were deceptive. If I claimed the imaginary or unseen was really happening and it wasn't happening, this would certainly be deceptive. Claiming to have an imagination or a dream isn't dangerous in itself.
It would seem that spirits can interact with our imagination, the Holy one and otherwise. I believe we have dreams, some of which may be influenced by spirits. To the extent the influence is explicitly scriptural and testifies to Christ, we know it to certainly be the Holy Spirit. To the extent the dream would lead us to sin or deception, it certainly wouldn't be the influence of the Holy Spirit. To the extent the dream does neither, perhaps it concerns ballgames, who we want to marry, going fishing, etc., we cannot be certain, it just is another subjective input we experience in life. I am not saying that it isn't God influencing our dreams or imagination. It may be the Holy Spirit, but I couldn't be certain and I couldn't claim with certainty that it was. It may be myself, and it may be an evil spirit, or a bit of undigested beef. As we cannot know for certain, I simply say that it "is."
If I am uncertain, based upon the content, that it is the Holy Spirit but I claim that it was, or I claim is God speaking - I think that I am going to far. I have claimed too much and become dangerous. I may say with certainty, "Perhaps the Holy Spirit gave me that dream or imagination." However, unless the imagination or dream is explicitly supported with scripture, it is close to blasphemy to say, "The Holy Spirit told me..." It is even worse to say, "the Holy Spirit told me that you need..." If we are uncertain, this should be communicated. If we claim certainty we go too far and become inherently abusive. Sincere perhaps, but abusive nonetheless. I have observed much of this kind of abusive speech and teaching in Christian cultures with appetites for spiritual experiences. People claiming for certain, things that they cannot prove or know for certain. Those who listen to them are often injured and misled. It is my belief that men do this - they make claims that they know the will of God with certainty about an event, situation or dream - because they want the authority of God to back up their words. If they only say "perhaps" then people won't listen to them as much.
This is my observation regarding Dr. Boyd and his book. He claims experiencing falsehood to bring freedom through reworked memories is "resting in Christ." The last question I would ask you is if believe that this is true? This seems to be an issue very close to the pen-name you write under. If you want a clearer idea of what I believe regarding this the following link is an article that I just received in the mail which deals with the question better than I have.
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/articles/issue81.htm
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/8/2004 8:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
In every case in the New Testament, we have seen that the discerning of spirits is objective, not subjective. This is necessary because spirits have a great advantage over humans in the realm of the spirit world. They have been in that realm practicing deception for thousands of years and they are good at it. They can produce whatever feeling or experience a person would normally associate with God or the Holy Spirit. The dangers of deception are greater than most people realize.
Holy Spirit inspired speech will always confess the person and work of Christ. True prophecy does not add to the faith once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3), but expounds, exhorts, encourages, and comforts by directly applying Biblical teaching to the lives of hearers (1Corinthians 14:3). If a person claims to speak for God but the person’s message content does not agree with Scripture and is outside of the sphere of material that God has revealed in the Bible, the spiritual source of the message is not God’s Spirit.
We live in the time of great deception and apostasy. It is a time when the Biblical tools for discernment are needed more than ever. We need to take these objective tools and apply them to what we hear being taught in God’s name. Each of us might be shocked to find out that we have been listening to spirits and not the Spirit of God. We must run to the gospel and begin building our houses on the rock.
My pen-name expresses the desire of my heart -- I want to know the TRUTH that Jesus Christ proclaimed!
Here's where I am still at a deadlock on this issue. I do not see Dr. Boyd trying to deceive people away from the truth. I believe his book does agree with the material found in the bible. I believe the end result of the exercise is to lead a wounded person to a safe place in the emotional event where they can experience the truth of Jesus Christ and from this come to a point of "resting in Christ." Allowing Jesus' love to be bigger than the traumatic event.
Spen Lake, perhaps I am blinded but I do not see how Dr. Boyd is being led by a spirit other than God's own in this work. The bottom line is that it is okay for you to not agree with Dr. Boyd but I do not think you have biblical permission to say that he is being led by a false spirit since he is actually leading people to the person of Jesus Christ not away. I believe this is judging. If you are concerned for him, or for those who have been healed and brought closer to Jesus through the technique used in his book, then I say pray to our Heavenly Father on their behalf and allow the Spirit to work. It can be too easy to judge things we don't understand.
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/8/2004 9:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
My pen-name expresses the desire of my heart -- I want to know the TRUTH that Jesus Christ proclaimed!
Here's where I am still at a deadlock on this issue. I do not see Dr. Boyd trying to deceive people away from the truth. I believe his book does agree with the material found in the bible. I believe the end result of the exercise is to lead a wounded person to a safe place in the emotional event where they can experience the truth of Jesus Christ and from this come to a point of "resting in Christ." Allowing Jesus' love to be bigger than the traumatic event.
Spen Lake, perhaps I am blinded but I do not see how Dr. Boyd is being led by a spirit other than God's own in this work. The bottom line is that it is okay for you to not agree with Dr. Boyd but I do not think you have biblical permission to say that he is being led by a false spirit since he is actually leading people to the person of Jesus Christ not away. I believe this is judging. If you are concerned for him, or for those who have been healed and brought closer to Jesus through the technique used in his book, then I say pray to our Heavenly Father on their behalf and allow the Spirit to work. It can be too easy to judge things we don't understand.
Spen Lake, I appreciate your heart for righteousness.
Quest,
When you state, "The bottom line is that it is okay for you to not agree with Dr. Boyd but I do not think you have biblical permission to say that he is being led by a false spirit since he is actually leading people to the person of Jesus Christ not away. I believe this is judging." I think that you are confusing an important distinction. We are commanded to judge teachings. We are commanded to discern. I cannot judge the motives of Dr. Boyd and I don't think that I have, at least not negatively. It is my personal opinion that he is sincere, trying his best to be helpful, and working hard to bring comfort to others. I just believe that his teachings in this book are wrong and misleading. I disagree that he is leading people to the true Jesus in his example. He is leading them to an imaginary Jesus who doesn't speak about the cross, who calls unsaved sinners by a title the true Jesus reserved only for God, he encourages small boys to rebuke those in legitimate authority over them. He calls grandmothers sacrificially raising their dead daughter's children bad and encourages children rebuking their elders. This imaginary Jesus did not bring the gospel to Dr. Boyd for healing and comfort but a false replacement story. This is not the real Jesus and the Spirit of Truth does not inspire lies. I couldn't disagree with you more as to which Jesus he has described for us in his example.
In saying this, I have no clue as to whether or to what extent Dr. Boyd actually believes in this Jesus he has described for others. This is an issue of his heart that only God can know. I have also heard him preach the gospel and I pray that he knows the true Jesus. I will state, however, that to the extent Dr. Boyd believes and follows a "Jesus" whose spirit leads him to "truth" through experiencing a replacement "false," to this extent he will be damned before God, him and anybody else. It doesn't matter what I believe regarding this, this is what the scriptures say and God will enforce it when it is His time. Perhaps it is that I care and am concerned that I take the time to even warn him at all? We can and should judge teaching, we are commanded to. The heart and the hidden things of importance there are for the judgment of God.
People do write books and make mistakes in them. Why should it be shocking that a falible man did the same in this instance? I pray that God will give him the grace to listen to what the Spirit of Truth is saying and come to his senses and repent of this foolish teaching.
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/8/2004 5:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Spen Lake,
I think that the central point for me is that people are healed and set free from lies and deception. I believe that however a person is lead to the truth of Jesus Christ is a beautiful means. I am not understanding Dr. Boyd's exercise the same way as you. I put less stake in the fact that in his imagination he made Jesus to be on a level that a little boy could relate with. I believe that the outcome of the exercise is much more important than whether all the t's were crossed and i's dotted.
Jesus met people right where they were at and ministered to their pain and need. Jesus loved people at their level. He didn't seem to be as worked up about the law as the Pharisee's because his mission was to set the captive free. However a person is brought to this same healing power of transformation and led closer to Jesus Christ -- to God be the glory. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/9/2004 2:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Spen Lake,
I think that the central point for me is that people are healed and set free from lies and deception. I believe that however a person is lead to the truth of Jesus Christ is a beautiful means. I am not understanding Dr. Boyd's exercise the same way as you. I put less stake in the fact that in his imagination he made Jesus to be on a level that a little boy could relate with. I believe that the outcome of the exercise is much more important than whether all the t's were crossed and i's dotted.
Jesus met people right where they were at and ministered to their pain and need. Jesus loved people at their level. He didn't seem to be as worked up about the law as the Pharisee's because his mission was to set the captive free. However a person is brought to this same healing power of transformation and led closer to Jesus Christ -- to God be the glory.
Quest,
Your statement, "However a person is brought to this same healing power of transformation and led closer to Jesus Christ -- to God be the glory." is concerning. The means are important, not neutral. The true Jesus is the only way, the narrow gate. We ONLY find forgiveness of sins and eternal life in what He has done on the cross. Your comments may be sincere, but they are not scriptural. The Jesus that Dr. Boyd described did not bring Dr. Boyd forgiveness from sin by His death. Dr. Boyd found the power of transformation in a false event, one which was self-centered and not based upon the work of Christ. When he "felt" that he wasn't bad, when he felt Jesus loved him, he felt he had the power to rework his memories. The men of Matthew 7:24 calling Jesus their Lord must have "felt" that He loved them but he damned them to hell because they were "lawless" and He didn't know them.
Feeling that God loves us does not mean that we are reconciled to Him. "Feeling" His love is not the means of salvation. There are two interesting scriptures in which God calls someone "friend" and they are either cast into hell or lost. The Greek word is hetairos.
Matthew 22:11
“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said* to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. “Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Matthew 26:49
Immediately Judas went to Jesus and said, “Hail, Rabbi!” and kissed Him. And Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you have come for.” Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him.
The true Christ and true God is only approached through repentance and the death of Christ. There is nothing of this in the Jesus of Dr. Boyd's imagination. True forgiveness is birthed out of gratitude based upon the amazing and costly forgiveness God extended to us - not false stories and self-esteem. The following paragraph spells out the forgiveness that Dr. Boyd found. In your quest for truth does this measure up to the forgiveness preached by the apostles?
Page 123, "Genuine forgiveness usually comes only after we grieve our loss, express our anger, and are freed from the damaging message o f the wrong done to us. Only when we gain a restored sense of self can we forgive in a real and healthy way. Only then can we really let go of a message or a memory that damaged us, which is what foregiveness is all about. Only after we have beenempowered in relation to the person who stole from us a piece of ourselves can we truly forgive them."
Contrast this with Matthew 18, quote:
Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said* to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. “When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. “But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. “So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ “And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. “But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred £denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ “So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ “But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. “So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. “Then summoning him, his lord said* to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. ‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ “And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. “My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
The power to forgive in Matthew, the one that the true Jesus endorses and teaches, flows from our valuing the forgiveness that the Lord has extended to us. I see nothing about anger, grieving, a restored sense of self or any of the items that Dr. Boyd says are necessary to forgive. He goes so far as to state the ONLY after this happens can we forgive in a real and healthy way. On whose authority, not the scriptures. I say bunk to his words, they are not resting in Christ and his ONLY way to forgivness is a sham and delusion. In fact, that is how he comes to feel the power to forgive, believing in a false-event, which is delusion.
This is a different Jesus being offered to us with a different gospel of forgiveness. In Luke 7:47, this same concept is made clear and the power to love God is tied directly to our understanding of God's forgiving our sins, "For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” Those who have difficulty forgiving have a poor understanding of the magnitude of their own sins and the value of God's forgiveness extended to them.
Lastly, Luke 24:44 states, " Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 4and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. “You are witnesses of these things."
This is the message that we are to bring to the world. In Dr. Boyd's book he preaches a repentance from our poor self image or damaged memories. It is in this repentance that he offers power to forgive. This is accessed through reworking our memories using inspired false replacement stories. The true Jesus commands us to repent of OUR sins and because He forgives these, we have the power to forgive others.
One book, Seeing is Believing , is bunk and teaches forgiveness based upon discovering self in false history.
Another book, the Bible, teaches us that we are sinners needing His forgiveness that He paid for with His blood. Out of the forgiveness that He extended to us, we freely extend forgiveness to others.
Quest, which Jesus will you believe and trust in to deliver on the promise of eternal life?
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/9/2004 3:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Quest, which Jesus will you believe and trust in to deliver on the promise of eternal life
Spen Lake, of course I will follow Jesus and believe in the Word of God. Your last post is quite a bit to take in so I will have to think about this and pray about this before I respond. I do appreciate your heart and concern for people in this. I will respond later after I have had time.
God bless. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/9/2004 6:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen Lake, I spent my morning and during the worship time at church praying that God would lead me and give me understanding in how to respond. I am a different person than you and have walked a journey separate from yours so perhaps we will have differences in our theology but the one thing I know we agree on is that there is only one God and his name is Jesus Christ. We agree that the bible is the source of life. 
With that all said I will now reply to your post.
quote:
Another book, the Bible, teaches us that we are sinners needing His forgiveness that He paid for with His blood. Out of the forgiveness that He extended to us, we freely extend forgiveness to others.
I totally agree with this! We are ALL sinners in need of God’s forgiveness and that it is by the grace and mercy of God that we are saved. Through this salvation we are now children of the Most High King! When we can own this forgiveness from God we are then able to begin to extend it to others. When a person is wounded they may find it difficult to understand and experience God’s forgiveness in a “real” way. We can say in word that we forgive. We can go about doing “works” of forgiveness but Jesus came to do away with works and preached through grace. “It is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me.”
quote:
The men of Matthew 7:24 calling Jesus their Lord must have "felt" that He loved them but he damned them to hell because they were "lawless" and He didn't know them.
Interesting. I interpret this passage very differently. These men had been doing works thinking they could earn their way into heaven and in the process missed the point. The point of Jesus death and resurrection is to bring us life. It is NOT ourselves but God. The more we draw near to God, the more we experience his love and healing power in our lives.
quote:
Feeling that God loves us does not mean that we are reconciled to Him. "Feeling" His love is not the means of salvation
I could be wrong but I do not believe Dr. Boyd is encouraging people to experience God through “feelings” I believe the book is a means of transformation. I believe the point of the book is to assist people, offer people a way to draw closer/experience Jesus in a tangible way. We are reconciled and saved through God’s grace. One way to experience this grace can be through bringing Jesus into our painful past and experiencing how Jesus wished the scenario could have gone. We do not have to be a slave to our past. This exercise offers a means to be FREE from the bondage -- from the lie that was installed from the event. Though Satan may have been able to install a belief that was based upon falseness, Jesus now can show the wounded soldier the truth. “The truth shall set you free.”
quote:
The true Christ and true God is only approached through repentance and the death of Christ. There is nothing of this in the Jesus of Dr. Boyd's imagination. True forgiveness is birthed out of gratitude based upon the amazing and costly forgiveness God extended to us - not false stories and self-esteem
We need to own this forgiveness before true gratitude will be felt. We can fake it. We can “try hard enough” but we will never have the indebted gratitude until we are set free. I do not understand Dr. Boyd to be saying that we are not to consider and be grateful for the amazing and costly forgiveness of God. Where do you read that in the book?
As far as the false stories… I think this is something you are not comfortable with and I totally respect that. I heard something similar through Might-be-don’s post. However God has equipped you and designed you to experience his love and forgiveness is the way you need to operate. However, if Dr. Boyd and others are experiencing transformation out of this exercise and consequently drawing them closer to Jesus Christ then why would you be upset? I could see if this exercise led them away from Jesus Christ but I do not see this. You can judge a tree by the fruit it produces. This exercise is producing transformation and repentence which is leading people to truly forgive and love their enemies.
From Dr. Boyd‘s book:quote:
Page 123, "Genuine forgiveness usually comes only after we grieve our loss, express our anger, and are freed from the damaging message o f the wrong done to us. Only when we gain a restored sense of self can we forgive in a real and healthy way. Only then can we really let go of a message or a memory that damaged us, which is what foregiveness is all about. Only after we have beenempowered in relation to the person who stole from us a piece of ourselves can we truly forgive them."
What don’t you agree about this? To truly forgive another we must be in a place of truly letting go of the wrongdoing. A little boy who felt wounded cannot just simply let go of this, he must somehow reconcile it in his inner self. I don’t understand where the bible tells us not to do this. God tells us to “Take EVERY thought captive” and to “Be renewed by the renewing of our minds” This renewing of our minds can come about through such a means as Dr. Boyd suggests. What is wrong with this? I seriously am not getting it.
quote:
The power to forgive in Matthew, the one that the true Jesus endorses and teaches, flows from our valuing the forgiveness that the Lord has extended to us. I see nothing about anger, grieving, a restored sense of self or any of the items that Dr. Boyd says are necessary to forgive. He goes so far as to state the ONLY after this happens can we forgive in a real and healthy way
Again, I do not understand why you cannot accept that some people need more then to just say it in their minds to REALLY experience it. I believe in the five stages of grief. When we have a loss (even if it is an inner loss of truth) we have grief. Some people such as yourself seem to have an easy time dealing with the loss of truth (a false truth was installed as a result of the wrong doing) and some people need to work it through. We are not to be doing works. We are to be transformed so that we can carry out the commandment of Christ which is to freely love.
Spen Lake, again I am wondering if we are going to have to agree to disagree? I want you to hear me say this “I love Jesus Christ with ALL of my heart and want to know him more and more.”
God's peace and love to you dear brother!
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/9/2004 11:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Quest says: quote:
From Dr. Boyd‘s book:
quote:
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Page 123, "Genuine forgiveness usually comes only after we grieve our loss, express our anger, and are freed from the damaging message o f the wrong done to us. Only when we gain a restored sense of self can we forgive in a real and healthy way. Only then can we really let go of a message or a memory that damaged us, which is what foregiveness is all about. Only after we have beenempowered in relation to the person who stole from us a piece of ourselves can we truly forgive them."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What don’t you agree about this? To truly forgive another we must be in a place of truly letting go of the wrongdoing. A little boy who felt wounded cannot just simply let go of this, he must somehow reconcile it in his inner self. I don’t understand where the bible tells us not to do this. God tells us to “Take EVERY thought captive” and to “Be renewed by the renewing of our minds” This renewing of our minds can come about through such a means as Dr. Boyd suggests. What is wrong with this? I seriously am not getting it.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The power to forgive in Matthew, the one that the true Jesus endorses and teaches, flows from our valuing the forgiveness that the Lord has extended to us. I see nothing about anger, grieving, a restored sense of self or any of the items that Dr. Boyd says are necessary to forgive. He goes so far as to state the ONLY after this happens can we forgive in a real and healthy way
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Again, I do not understand why you cannot accept that some people need more then to just say it in their minds to REALLY experience it. I believe in the five stages of grief. When we have a loss (even if it is an inner loss of truth) we have grief. Some people such as yourself seem to have an easy time dealing with the loss of truth (a false truth was installed as a result of the wrong doing) and some people need to work it through. We are not to be doing works. We are to be transformed so that we can carry out the commandment of Christ which is to freely love.
While this may be an interesting idea, it is not scriptural. The passage in Matthew decribes something different than what Dr. Boyd describes. We aren't told to repent of our "feeling wounded" but of our sin. Sin, not bad memories, is our problem.
In Dr. Boyd's example we have Jesus telling sinners they are good. What does the Bible say?
Matthew 19:17, "And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Mark 10:17, "And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."
Luke 5:32, "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."
You are free to believe in your example, but the Jesus of Dr. Boyd calls sinners good and doesn't lead them to repentance. This is the antithesis of Luke 5:32.
When you state, "We are to be transformed so that we can carry out the commandment of Christ which is to freely love." This love has content and consists in believing and knowing the true Christ and preaching the true gospel of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, not reworking memories of "good boys" with false stories. I think that this is enough. I am sorry that I cannot communicate it better.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/9/2004 2:02 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
This is the message that we are to bring to the world. In Dr. Boyd's book he preaches a repentance from our poor self image or damaged memories. It is in this repentance that he offers power to forgive. This is accessed through reworking our memories using inspired false replacement stories. The true Jesus commands us to repent of OUR sins and because He forgives these, we have the power to forgive others.
One book, Seeing is Believing , is bunk and teaches forgiveness based upon discovering self in false history.
Another book, the Bible, teaches us that we are sinners needing His forgiveness that He paid for with His blood. Out of the forgiveness that He extended to us, we freely extend forgiveness to others.
Quest, which Jesus will you believe and trust in to deliver on the promise of eternal life?
Spen,
I think you are missing something. I say this with all respect and humility. I've seen you be very gracious, but I also see you repeating the same thing, despite the attempts of many to encourage you to "see another perspective." I could be wrong and I'm open to that. But I do, in my heart, believe that you are missing something very important.
Nowhere do I see Dr Boyd "preaching a repentence from poor self image." This is not a gospel presentation he is giving, it is a testimony of the transforming power of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer.
"Inspired false replacement stories," as you put it, must be either not inspired (in order to be false), or true (in order to be inpired). There is no such thing, in my way of thinking, as "inspired false replacement stories." And, as has been said countless times, this was not a vision that was a replacement for an event that took place. Rather, this "reworking" of the Holy Spirit was a healing of a past memory - one that had a profound impact on the life of a believer (Dr Boyd in this example).
Something else to consider. How many believers do you know that have these kind of visions when they are: 1) awake, 2) in prayer, and that transform the life of that believer so that they are able to serve God in a healthier way. I've never had visions like this without it being in a time of prayer and even those are rare. Try as you might to manufacture such a thing, it just doesn't happen. And the enemy is not about to cause something that will transform the life of a believer. He comes only to steal, kill and destroy, remember?
The true Jesus compells (not commands) us to repent of our sins, but often we need healing of memories to come to the place where we are able to truly forgive. For example, a woman that has been raped repeatedly by a family member, does not immediately necessarily have the desire or ability to forgive them, until she has experienced healing, and I agree with Dr Boyd. I believe that the work of the Holy Spirit needs to be "as real" as the actual damaging event that took place in our lives. Why is it we question (so quickly) the Holy Spirit's ability to supernaturally intervene in our lives? I would have missed healing that brought a cascade of changes into my life if I had believed that the vision the Lord gave me was false. In prayer (about 3 hours of prayer), He led me through a vision that changed my life, that transformed me. To call it false would be like a slap in the face to the Father who was giving me a wonderful gift. It was not imagination, it was not false, it was the Holy Spirit. Have you ever heard of the saying, "the proof is in the pudding?" I hear what you're saying, your criticism that just because something works...that it doesn't necessarily follow that it is truth. I believe you've carried it too far in this example. You are misinterpreting the intent and the truth of what Dr Boyd is sharing in "Seeing is Believing."
Nothing is as important, however, as love. IMHO, Quest, there is only one Jesus of the Gospels. There isn't a choice here, between Him and the Jesus that came to Dr Boyd in his vision. If you would like...I would be glad to share my own transformation (Jesus was there too). He created our minds. As I've said before, the enemy works to damage our minds. Why shouldn't Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, heal our minds in powerful ways. He knows our heart, our desire to serve Him and our need to be healed, and it is His desire to restore, to heal, to transform.
I give Him (the one and only Jesus) all the glory, forever!
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/10/2004 12:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Annequote:
Nothing is as important, however, as love. IMHO, Quest, there is only one Jesus of the Gospels. There isn't a choice here, between Him and the Jesus that came to Dr Boyd in his vision. If you would like...I would be glad to share my own transformation (Jesus was there too).
Please do share your story. Perhaps your story might help Spen Lake understand how the Holy Spirit was at work bringing LIFE and TRUTH. I would love to here it!
I will NEVER judge whether someone had an experience with Jesus. I agree that the Jesus of the Gospels is the same Jesus that came to Dr. Boyd. Spen Lake, I still do not believe it is our place to judge when the fruit obtained is a closer walk with Christ. I agree with Jo-Anne in that "the proof is in the pudding" Spen Lake, we will have to agree to disagree. I believe in my heart that you love the Lord with all your heart and please know that I love the Lord with all my heart too. It seems like we both are seeking after the truth found in the Word. | | Back to Top | | |
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