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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 8/9/2004 10:50 AM (GMT -6) |   | Sahid said:
I'm saying when we have a choice and screw up, even a little bit, we need forgiveness. I think it's wrong to lie, even to the evil or elderly.
Semeia:
Obviously the person hiding the Jewish family from the Nazis has a choice: he can either be truthful and say yes to the Nazi guard and hand the family over to be sent to the concentration camp, or he can lie and continue to hide them at the risk of his own life.
Are you saying that if he lied to protect the family that that would be screwing up? What would not screwing up look like?
And if you say it is wrong to lie - even to the evildoer - does that mean you wouldn't lie to protect someone from a terrible evil? Would you just hand them over to the Nazi guard?
I honestly don't understand your view. It seems like you are holding the principle of "honesty" as something more important than protecting someone's life.
And if you are not saying that, and protecting someone's life is more important than honesty, then why is forgiveness required?
If God was right there in the room standing next to you as you faced the Nazi guard, who had just asked you if there were any Jews on the premises, and you knew that a Jewish family was hiding in your attic - in fact you had helped to hide them there - what do you think God would tell you to do? Would he say, "Be honest, and hand them over," or would he say, "Lie to the Nazi; he plans on starving and gassing them to death, after he rips out their fillings and steals their jewelry and clothing. He will rape the women young and old, conduct medical experiments and torture, and in the end bulldoze them in a mass grave."
Honestly, what would God say? And if God himself would say to lie, then why ask for forgiveness? And if God would say to tell the truth, what kind of horrible God would he be - to hold "truth" higher than the life of a family?
None of these are rhetorical questions. I'd really like to know how you would answer them, because I don't really comprehend what you are saying. It seems like you are saying that it's wrong to lie in any situation one can think of; therefore it is ALWAYS right to tell the truth.
But if telling the truth sends an innocent person to certain torture and death, I do not see how it can be right. And if telling the truth to someone would destroy their dignity or crush their spirit, I do not see how it can be the right thing to do.
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/9/2004 11:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Sin is not an individual thing. It is something that we share. Sin invades us even beyond our own "fault."
No one sins alone No one is saved alone. We are communal creatures. We bear each others burdens, and suffer together. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/10/2004 5:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
I remain unswayed on lying to Grandma.
Sahid, get married and you will soon discover that white lies about a woman’s appearance are a good thing. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/10/2004 5:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
I remain unswayed on lying to Grandma.
Sahid, get married and you will soon discover that white lies about a woman’s appearance are a good thing.
Some of us don't have to lie. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/10/2004 6:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
I remain unswayed on lying to Grandma.
Sahid, get married and you will soon discover that white lies about a woman’s appearance are a good thing.
Some of us don't have to lie.
By all means, you would never catch me lying either. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/10/2004 6:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Sister of Cain
Some of us don't have to lie.
By all means, you would never catch me lying either.
If fact, if I said that I'm a liar, I would be a liar.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/10/2004 9:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Sahid, get married and you will soon discover that white lies about a woman’s appearance are a good thing.
This may be irrational and wrong, but I hate women's insecurities. You don't have to be married to understand, trust me. I hate them with a passion, not the women, the insecurities. I know it's a joke, but I am not lying about how women look. It doesn't help. It just keeps them living in the world where outward appearance is what makes you valuable. Did I mention that I hate it? I don't want to marry a woman who's that insecure. I want a woman you believes that they are valuable because God loves them, not because they look good. In short, I want a Christian.
On another topic I've said that all we need for salvation is confession of sin, belief that God loves you, and acceptance of that love. That is probably more minimal than most are comfortable with, but even that broad definition of Christianity does not include those who aren't loved when they don't look good. Don't get me wrong; I'm not questioning the salvation of anyone here. I just think it's incredibly serious. If someone believes that their lovableness is conditional, they don't believe in Jesus.
Ok, I feel better now. Deep breath. I can't get into specifics; it wouldn't be right. But, I know of what I speak. It may seem like a little thing, or we may say that's just how women are, but that's not just how women are. Women are people who can make choices like anybody. If they are insecure, it's not natural or acceptable. It is in direct contradiction to my most central belief: Jesus loves.
If you love them, don't lie to them. Tell them the truth, then run for cover. I'd recommend protecting your head and neck.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/10/2004 9:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
Sahid, get married and you will soon discover that white lies about a woman’s appearance are a good thing.
This may be irrational and wrong, but I hate women's insecurities. You don't have to be married to understand, trust me. I hate them with a passion, not the women, the insecurities. I know it's a joke, but I am not lying about how women look. It doesn't help. It just keeps them living in the world where outward appearance is what makes you valuable. Did I mention that I hate it? I don't want to marry a woman who's that insecure.
ok, are you Gay?
Just Kidding | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/10/2004 9:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
I'm convinced they exist, but I may just have to stay single.
You're funny!
When you fall in love, you will change your mind... or lose it. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/11/2004 9:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Where do you draw the line? When do you think it's right to stop lying and tell the truth. It sounds like you'd even lie to spare someone's feelings. Do we only tell the truth when it's plesant? If I knew the location of a Jew living in a Nazi controlled area, hopefully I wouldn't tell. They could get pretty mean, so maybe I'd crack. I don't think it's right to tell the truth in that situation, but I don't think it's right to lie either. Honestly, I'm out of my league. I don't know what's right in that situation.
Here goes. I hereby change my mind. I remembered I'm a libertarian. If someone is using force (i.e. coercion or fraud), only then is it appropiate to use force. So I think fraud or lying would be ok then. I remain unswayed on lying to Grandma. That strikes me more as cruel than kind.
Ultimately we are not the judge - because we do not see the heart as God does. Some things are just not black and white, and that is where we rely on the Holy Spirit to convict hearts.
We are in a new covenant - one of grace, not the law. Jesus broke the law, but fulfilled it at the same time - because the whole law, as He described it Himself, was to love God with everything in you, then to love others as He has loved you. In doing this, you keep the entire "law". If this is what He requires, why should we ask more of people?
If someone loves Him with everything in them (as Corrie Ten Boom did for example), perhaps he/she (hopefully) could stand at the door of their house and deny that they were hiding Jewish people. I praise God for people like that who were able to lie - because it was not a "lie" but obedience to what God was asking them to do. Perhaps we need to focus more on what truth is? Then we will understand what a lie is?
It's late, and I'm rambling again. My thoughts.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/11/2004 9:54 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
I'm convinced they exist, but I may just have to stay single.
Sahid, it is possible (desirable) to feel good about who you are as you understand your worth in Christ. You realize that you don't have to be perfect, or look perfect - to be beautiful.
I know that. But we are also human. Jesus sweat drops of blood in Gethsemane because He was human, as well as fully God. He was tempted in all ways as we are tempted - that was His humanity. As a woman, you will never find a woman who does not doubt her worth, at one time or another. Even in a fairy tale, you would not find that kind of woman.
So, when your future wife wakes up and asks you first thing in the morning if you think she LOOKS beautiful - you can answer honestly (even if her hair looks like something has taken up residency in it), "Yes honey, you are beautiful" because a) she is beautiful to you, b) beauty is in the eye of the beholder, c) she is beautiful to the Father, d) the rest of your day depends on your answer, or e) all of the above.
I understand why honesty is considered to be abstract. You have to look at it that way. It is not always black and white. The lines get fuzzy. When the word says that man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart - I believe it is speaking of intent. God actually looks beyond what we say or do - at the intent. Our heart is what is most important to God.
I hope this helps somehow.
Every person is beautiful, but they do not always recognize their worth in Christ. Honesty is not always "the best policy". Imagine the hurt that would result if it were.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/12/2004 12:53 AM (GMT -6) | | There may be exceptions like Nazis and criminals, but for day to day life, I like honesty. It would be a dream come true to have my future wife ask if her hair looks good first thing in the morning, to answer with an honest 'no', and to see her laugh rather than cry. I just graduated college this spring, and to any of my roommates you didn't have to wait for them to ask. You could bring up the subject of their hideous appearance, be honest, and share a laugh. I guess our culture (maybe our genes) makes it easier for guys to do that. I just know what it's like to have your significant other constantly checking to see if she is valuable. It ruins things. And now I can see when others do the same thing with more subtlety. The consequences are subtle but essentially the same.
I think it has a lot to do with the deception of the flesh as Doc describes it. As long as we're proud or ashamed of ourselves, we are blind to real value. A person will take a bullet only for someone he values or loves. Jesus took the bullet for each one of us. The more we let that sink in, the better. We begin to realize that nappy hair or even physical appearance in general have no bearing on personal worth.
I realize that everyone deals with insecurity from time to time. But I'm gonna wait for someone whose life is characterized by the truth. I've actually seen Christians who keep messages on the desk or wall reminding them that they are sexy or pretty. That stuff won't work. If successful, the only thing it will do is replace low self-esteem with arrogance.
I know I'm preaching to the choir, but it just lights a fire in me. I just want to stop people, look them in the eye, and tell them, "You are ugly, weak, stupid, and bad. But Jesus will make you beautiful, strong, wise, and awesome." That's just a little blunt though. It's a slow process, and so many people will get the idea in their head and give intellectual ascent but never accept it as real. It's the best thing in the world to have your worst fears come true and then watch Jesus come and flick them away like a piece of lent.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 8/12/2004 6:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Sahid said:
I know I'm preaching to the choir, but it just lights a fire in me. I just want to stop people, look them in the eye, and tell them, "You are ugly, weak, stupid, and bad. But Jesus will make you beautiful, strong, wise, and awesome."
Semeia:
Sorry Sahid, I don't think you're preaching to the choir. I don't think anyone responding to you on these last few pages would want to do what you are suggesting here.
There is nothing at all truthful about telling someone, "You are ugly, weak, stupid, and bad." That is a lie from the pit of hell. Jesus already declared our worth when he found each and every one of us worth dying for. He didn't die for us because we are ugly, weak, stupid, and bad. He didn't die for us so we could become beautiful, wise, strong and awesome. He died for us in our present state to show us the incredible love we ALREADY HAVE from God.
If you think that the way to make an insecure person more secure is to tell them the so-called "truth" about how they look (which is never more than your subjective OPINION about how they look) then you are in for a string of broken relationships. Your experience of your male friends in the dorm room, happily dissing each other for looking "ugly" in the morning, is a particular male sub-culture where insults are funny and provide a glue for male bonding. I'm sure it felt good, as a college kid, to have that sense of belonging, that sense of being able to "say anything" and still be accepted. I have met guys for whom college was the high point for them, because they never got past that good feeling they got from that kind of male camaraderie. They continued to look for that in their adult life, and especially in their relationships with women.
But that experience is not only not transferable to a mature love relationship - it is in fact a very bad model for it. Guys get over their insecurities by being cruel to each other, and then laughing about it. Our culture is so gay-phobic that anything even resembling an intimate or too kind comment from a man to a man has to be masked in humor or brutality. But because that is the way men have been taught to relate to each other, and it "feels" more honest, does not mean it IS more honest or intimate. In fact, I assure you that it is far LESS honest than the love relationship you will have someday.
But the honesty that you hopefully will experience when you are in a deep love relationship is not the kind that says, "Your hair looks hideous this morning... ha ha ha." When you are deeply in love with someone, and they stumble out of bed in the morning with their hair disheveled and a little bit of drool on their chin, they just look like they look in the morning - which is a more vulnerable look than in the afternoon, or after a shower. But it isn't un-beautiful, because it's them. Honesty is seeing them, not some temporary condition of their hair. When you are in love with someone, or even if you simply love someone (like your grandmother), their changing physical appearance is an irrelevant part of who they are. And it becomes beautiful, because it’s them. When I see my husband in the morning I don’t EVER see anything ugly, no matter how goofy he might look. We might laugh if one of us has an odd hair thing happening, but not because either of us sees it as “ugly.” I am never happier than when he is walking around with major bed-head singing some goofy song he made up. And the worse I look in the morning, the more wild he is after me. If I haven’t had a shower and think I smell bad, he tells me I just smell like a more intense me, and he kisses me all over my smelly body and tells me he loves me!
When I first married my husband (Iconoclast), I was very insecure about how I looked and about whether or not I was really a person worth being loved. If he had ever responded “yes” to my thousand inquiries about whether or not I looked fat, or if my skin or hair or clothes looked bad, it would only have confirmed what I already believed: that there was something about me that wasn’t “good enough.” But Iconoclast just loved me and told me over and over and over that I was beautiful and loved. And in those first years of marriage his constant message of love and affirmation was a healing balm to me, that healed a lifetime of other messages: that I wasn’t good enough, or worthy of being loved. And an interesting thing happened. As he told me how beautiful I was, I became more beautiful. I became more confident and less insecure. I flowered as a person.
No one becomes more confident or self-assured by being told someone’s negative opinion about their looks. No one will find God’s love by being told “you are ugly, weak, stupid, and bad.” Those are human judgments, not God’s judgments. God’s judgment is that we are worthy of dying for – because we are beloved, not because we are stupid and bad.
Jo-Anne said:
Perhaps we need to focus more on what truth is? Then we will understand what a lie is?
Semeia:
I think that says it best. Because the truth is NOT that we are stupid and bad and ugly. That is a lie from the pit of hell. The TRUTH is that we are so beloved and precious that God died for us – in our present state – exactly as we are right now.
Anyone who has given birth, or fathered a child, knows that feeling. Because there is no physical or mental flaw that can mar the perfection and lovability of one’s own child.
I have seen some ugly babies (to my fallen, human subjective mind) to the point where I had to control the expression on my face to not reveal my reaction to the mother. But every mother will say, “Isn’t he gorgeous!!” or, “Isn’t she beautiful!!” when looking at her own child. Who is right? The subjective onlooker? Or the mother who has just discovered a love that covers all?
I would say only love is the truth, and love always finds beauty in the beloved, without effort, without lies. Because the truth is that we are beautiful, and loved, and worthy of God’s greatest sacrifice.
And so it is not a lie to tell the Nazi guard something that is factually untrue. Because the Nazi guard does not recognize the worth of the Jewish family he hunts. He doesn’t see them as human, or beautiful, or worthy. What he is looking for – mere objects – are not there. What is hiding in the attic are precious irreplaceable unique loveable humans, who deserve protection, who deserve life.
Love recognizes and calls out the innate beauty and worth in the most subjectively ugly or flawed person. Love doesn’t call out the flaws.
If you want to help someone lose weight, give them a hug, take a walk with them, focus on what’s working in their life, but don’t tell them they’re fat. Chances are, they’re fat because they don’t feel okay about themselves, and all you’ll do is confirm what they already believe. Show them the truth about themselves – that they are beautiful and beloved – and watch how that thought becomes outward reality, regardless of whether or not they ever lose weight.
And if you want to be honest with people, treat them as people who are worth dying for. Jesus doesn’t make us beautiful, wise, strong and awesome. He simply loves us as he finds us, in all our reality, and still chooses to die for us.
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/12/2004 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Semeia
When I first married my husband (Iconoclast), I was very insecure about how I looked and about whether or not I was really a person worth being loved. If he had ever responded “yes” to my thousand inquiries about whether or not I looked fat, or if my skin or hair or clothes looked bad, it would only have confirmed what I already believed: that there was something about me that wasn’t “good enough.” But Iconoclast just loved me and told me over and over and over that I was beautiful and loved. And in those first years of marriage his constant message of love and affirmation was a healing balm to me, that healed a lifetime of other messages: that I wasn’t good enough, or worthy of being loved. And an interesting thing happened. As he told me how beautiful I was, I became more beautiful. I became more confident and less insecure. I flowered as a person.
Sahid,
Take to heart her words of wisdom.  They will not only save your mind someday, but also the love of your life.
In the meantime, enjoy your days in school and all the good times with the boys.
Blessings,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/12/2004 4:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
I know I'm preaching to the choir, but it just lights a fire in me. I just want to stop people, look them in the eye, and tell them, "You are ugly, weak, stupid, and bad. But Jesus will make you beautiful, strong, wise, and awesome." That's just a little blunt though. It's a slow process, and so many people will get the idea in their head and give intellectual ascent but never accept it as real. It's the best thing in the world to have your worst fears come true and then watch Jesus come and flick them away like a piece of lent.[/font=Book Antiqua]
Sahid, I believe that I hear the longing of your heart. To be honest (), I think most people are afraid of that kind of honesty. It is vulnerable. There is an honesty that is real, and refreshing, and that comes from a heart full of love for people. If you couldn't imagine Jesus being honest as you have described, then I wouldn't venture forth with that kind of honesty.
I agree with you, that our worth needs to come from the Father. I hope and pray that you will find that kind of woman to share your life with; a woman who feels wonderful about who she is in Christ, and if her hair is messed up she can laugh with you about it. But, don't be surprised if one day when you tell her how messy her hair is, that she bursts into tears (and then you'll end up taking her for supper, or holding her, or buying her flowers and telling her how beautiful she is to you). We're human, and that is as wonderful as being spiritual. He created us this way with all of our frailty, and I believe He loves us not despite our humanity, but because of it. He knows what it takes for us to trust, to love...
I'm not talking about a woman who is slightly neurotic, or even insecure Sahid. I'm talking about a woman who loves God passionately, and understands who she is in Christ, and is still - very human. You'll be glad she is.
Be careful if you do door to door visiting...you could be somewhat dangerous 
Honest reflections,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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