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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Ethics, etc. > (No Subject)
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/28/2004 10:24 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Is it ok to lie or steal or commit any other sin in order to save a life? Whatcha think?
Interesting question. It's a good one ethically. Is it ever "o.k." to sin? Sounds like one of those lesser evil, greater good things again! The law was given to make us aware of sin. But Jesus took the law, and transformed it, putting people ahead of the law. So, yes, in this example that you give...I would lie or steal to save a life. I believe we have the kind of heavenly Father who would understand that. And as far as "any other sin," I don't think you could just "blanket" that - it would depend on what "any other sin" was.
I believe the Lord knows each individual circumstance that we find ourselves in, and that He is far more compassionate than we will ever be. Also, humanly speaking, when faced with such a decision - we may just have seconds to make a decision. I would want to save a life.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/30/2004 4:23 AM (GMT -6) | | The road to hell is a gradual one, paved with little white lies. Lie? If push came to shove then I could see myself crossing my fingers and saving a life. But for the most part, the end don't justify the means.
Romans 3:5-8 (NIV)
But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) [6] Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.
Peace, Mark
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/30/2004 8:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Is it ok to lie or steal or commit any other sin in order to save a life? Whatcha think?
If you "gain the whole world, but loose your own soul..."
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Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/1/2004 9:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Back to my political craziness, if the ends never justify the means....
What if I made the rules (which is actually the case, because I get to vote), and decided to take money from an individual, who does not necessarily approve of his or her money being taken, and give it to someone else. I say it's justified, because it helps the person who gets the money. But that's ends justifying means. I say they agreed to this form of government, but their name is not on the constitution, nor were they around when their state ratified its or its country's constitution. I say if you don't like the rule the majority makes, you can leave. But that's just pushing someone around who's weaker than me.
I think only Jo-Anne's "The ends sometimes justify the means" stance is the only one that is consistent with a majority rules state providing welfare or even taking mandatory taxes. However, it just so happens that I don't think the ends justify the means.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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veg53
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 7/17/2004 7:21 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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veg53
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 7/17/2004 7:27 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/17/2004 11:09 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Back to my political craziness, if the ends never justify the means....
What if I made the rules (which is actually the case, because I get to vote), and decided to take money from an individual, who does not necessarily approve of his or her money being taken, and give it to someone else. I say it's justified, because it helps the person who gets the money. But that's ends justifying means. I say they agreed to this form of government, but their name is not on the constitution, nor were they around when their state ratified its or its country's constitution. I say if you don't like the rule the majority makes, you can leave. But that's just pushing someone around who's weaker than me.
I think only Jo-Anne's "The ends sometimes justify the means" stance is the only one that is consistent with a majority rules state providing welfare or even taking mandatory taxes. However, it just so happens that I don't think the ends justify the means.
Would smuggling Bibles be considered "the ends justifying the means." Isn't that a form of lying? And doesn't it save lives?
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Bobber
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/18/2004 1:38 PM (GMT -6) | | | Is it wrong to ever tell a lie to save a life? Isn't this what happened with Rahab and the spies which came to her house? She hid the spies and I guessed she lied about them and yet she was shown honor for doing so . The way I see this is that yes its wrong to lie, most certainly in the absolute perfect world. Without telling a lie however these spies would have been killed, for they were hiding up on her roof. I think yes sometimes God does look at situaitons. I don't see any other conclusion one could make. He knows there are situations that come unto us which there is no way out without somebody being killed. It is an interesting question though. | | Back to Top | | |
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sometimesisquint
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 91
| Posted 7/18/2004 4:28 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Rahab did not bear false witness.
Really?
quote:
2 The king of Jericho was told, "Look! Some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land." 3 So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: "Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land." 4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don't know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them." 6 (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) 7 So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut.
What exactly is this called then?
"What's partner yoga?"
"It's when you're two with the universe."
-My Friend Keith
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When life gives you dish rags, you make...a kite that won't fly in the rain. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/18/2004 5:09 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sometimesisquint
quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Is it ok to lie or steal or commit any other sin in order to save a life? Whatcha think?
Why not take it to a greater extreme. Is it okay to kill a man to save another man? What about in the case of killing an innocent man to save another innocent man? Or, kill ten people to save a hundred people. Ultimately you're getting a nice life-saving return on the "investment" but does the end justify the means when, relatively speaking, those families probably won't accept that their father/son/brother/daughter/mother/wife/husband died to serve even the noblest of causes. Truly if someone told me they had to kill my wife to save ten people...regardless of the circumstances, I'd have a hard time signing off on that. In fact, most people would fight it ragged.
Even when it seems the "end" justifies such carnal use of action, I'm not sure I agree. Of course I'd probably lie for a candy bar...so somewhere between morally acceptable murder and a Snickers bar is the hypocrisy.
One thing I know for sure; I would not be quick to judge someone who had to make such a choice. Those choices are made under extreme duress, and often with seconds to decide. It's the 'ol train track analogy again; would you switch the tracks if there were only 1 on one track, and the train was headed toward ten on the second track. Oh, and by the way - the "one" is your wife.
Something to think about.
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/18/2004 8:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Here's another way of thinking about it. What about people who tell a lie just to be humorous. Imagine your pastor received a nice baked pie from a certain person in his church. Imagine he stands up in his church and announced, "God spoke to me last night and told me to tell everyone in the congregation they are to bake me a pumpkin pie. You want the proof? God told me to tell you to turn to the verse [where ever its found] which says "Go and do likewise" There's your proof!" Well what happened there. The man was telling a joke. He was being funny. But actually it could be said that the man lied. God didn't tell him what he said. So did the man sin by lying? I don't think too many would say that he did. He lied but it wasn't sin. He was just kidding around with the people but it was technically still a lie. I think this is the same as Rahab in a different sort of way. She lied but yet it was not sin given the context so perhaps there is a context to whether say a lie is a sin. Once again a very interesting question.  | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/19/2004 2:08 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/19/2004 5:53 AM (GMT -6) | | To PotOnWheel
Let me ask you something here Pot about what I said about telling a lie while joking. Is it wrong to say words that really technically speaking are a lie but yet you're just joking with someone. If I stated to you that's real fire bursting into your computer burning up this dear fellow here  that's a lie but is it wrong? By the way that's not a fellow there but a girl. Do I need to repent here for lying? You see I knew it was a girl all along Just trying to lighten things up a bit folks 
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/19/2004 6:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Answering as a parent of young boys, here's my answer.
If you INTEND to deceive someone, then it is a lie. (Even if no words were uttered.)
But if, as in the case of our friend "" here, I was not deceived. If you told a two-year old, who watches videos repeatedly to see if it turns out the same everytime (I'm not joking about that!), that it actually was TV of a real guy in pain, then THAT would be a lie, and quite evil.
Notice, please, that I withdrew the two Rahab posts. I do think that the violence of war covers her, as the relationship with them was really being violated, on purpose, and more violently a few days later than then. But the fact you pointed out -- or implied -- that sometimes un-facts can be disceptions. (are false witness "against" in that harm is done to, and between, and by that beyond onto the very nature of truth that God establishes and gives to our care, etc.) So I removed them.
PoW.
- thanks for asking.
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