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GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 12/20/2002 6:52 AM (GMT -6)

I know this is a hot topic, but this is what discussion boards are for, right?

Because of a massive stroke and brain hemorage, my dad right now is laying in a hospital bed being tube fed and on a ventilator to keep him breathing. He has a strong heart that could conceivable keep beating for decades. He has measurable brain activity, and even on occasion seems to reflect momentary awareness of people in the room. We are praying he comes out of this comma and can once again interact with us in some significant way, or that he dies a peaceful death.

What if he doesn't? What if, in two months, he still has measurable brain waves but is in a total coma?

I know that HE would much rather prefer to die than to "live" in this condition.All the family agrees it would be better to die than to "live" in this condition.

It seems to me that the loving and right thing to do in this case would be to give him a farewell party and then "pull the plug."

Though Satan is the lord of death (Heb 2:14), and though death (at least as we now experience it) was never part of God's ideal plan for creation, and in this sense is a curse, it is also true that God gave DEATH to us a merciful give. He kicked us out of the garden lest we eat of the tree of life and live forever (in our fallen condition). In this light, isn't there a rebellious ungodly dimension to modern medicine when it keeps people alive who "should" have died? Because we CAN now defy nature and keep people alive, should we? I of course believe that medicine is a wonderful gift of God. But are we now rebellious refusing the gift of death when we push it to this extent?

I am VERY aware and concerned with the dangers of allowing euthanasia. Without strong safe gaurds it could degenerate into eugenics. But is the solution to this danger to never allow euthanasia? Isn't this "all or nothing" mindset in some cases almost as bad (and for the "victims" perhaps JUST as bad) as eugenics? Wouldn't it be better to bit the bullet, especially strong safegaurds, and allow it in some instances?

I'd like your thoughts on this. Please don't conclude that because I launched this conversation by providing a personal illustration that you have to tip toe around me. I would like frank discussion on this. I just wanted to drive home the point that this is not a "theoretical issue." MANY many people and families are in the position we are in with my father.

Blessings

Doc

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

Springs
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636

Posted 12/20/2002 7:35 PM (GMT -6)

What do they mean by measurable brain waves? In this day and age of brain scanning and mapping do they have any idea whether the activity signals normal thought? What patterns are interuppted by the coma state? I don't know much about this area but I thought euthanasia was taking enough drugs to die. I didn't know it meant pulling a plug.

I was talking to a Pastor last week about whether the personality of a person exists after death, or if it is in soul sleep until the resurrection. He said that in cases where the physical mind is deteriorated the self is in essense already gone.

My father in law is having fewer and fewer interactions with reality. One of the common hallucinations of Parkinson's is seeing clowns. They're here. When Dad's mind is completely gone, he won't be able to do anything for himself. He won't know who his is or where he is. He won't know anyone. Will his mind be in hell until he sleeps?

BBBC? HandCarved?

Springs

"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if were so, it would be; but as it isn't , it ain't. That's logic."

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/21/2002 6:20 AM (GMT -6)

I wonder whether this thread is starting out on a confusing note:

But in its narrative might just be presenting the issue of allowing natural death.

I'm against euthanasia. At all. But I won't stand in the way of natural death. (With any modern pain alleviators that we might have.)

quote:
It seems to me that the loving and right thing to do in this case would be to give him a farewell party and then "pull the plug."

I don't at all call that "euthanasia."

My prayers are will you all. Amen.

Your brother!

...................................

quote:
(from the Liturgy of the Presanctified)

. . .

O God, great and wonderful, who with goodness indescribable and rich providence orderest all things, and grantest unto us earthly goods, who hast given us a pledge of the promised kingdom through the good things already granted unto us, and hast made us to shun all harm during that part of the present day which is past, grant that we may also fulfill the remainder of this day blamelessly before thy holy glory, and hymn thee, our God, who alone art good and lovest man.

For thou art our God, and unto thee do we send up glory, to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

Seventh Prayer

O great and most high God, who alone hast immortality, and dwellest in light unapproachable, who hast fashioned all creation in wisdom, who hast divided the light from the darkness, and hast set the sun to rule the day and the moon and stars to rule the night, who hast also vouchsafed unto us sinners at this present hour to come before thy presence with confession and to present unto thee our evening doxology, do thou thyself, 0 Lord, Lover of man, direct our prayer as incense before thee, and accept it for an odor of sweet fragrance, and grant that our present evening and coming night be peaceful. Clothe us with the armor of light. Deliver us from the fear of night, and from everything that walketh in darkness, and grant that the sleep that thou hast given for the repose of our infirmity may be free from every fantasy of the Devil. Yea, O Master of all, Leader of the good, may we, being moved to compunction upon our beds, remember thy name in the night. And, enlightened by the exercise of thy commandments, may we rise up in joyfulness of soul to the glorification of thy goodness, and offer supplications and prayers unto thy tenderness of heart, for our own sins and those of all thy people, whom do thou look upon in mercy, through the intercessions of the holy Theotokos.

For thou art a good God who lovest man, and unto thee do we send up glory, to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

And:

quote:
(the Song of St Simeon)

"Lord,
now lettest Thou Thy servant depart in peace
according to Thy word,
for mine eyes have seen Thy salvation:
which Thou hast prepared before the face of all people.
A light for revelation to the Gentiles,
and to be the glory of Thy people Israel"
(Lk 1:29-32).

Edited by - fred on 12/21/2002 11:45:44 AM

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 12/21/2002 7:21 AM (GMT -6)

I'd vote for a big difference between "allowing" ( pulling the plug ) the death and "causing" ( euthanasia ) the death.

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 12/21/2002 8:29 AM (GMT -6)

Doc,

I'm confused here. I thought (after I read the prologue to Skeptics) that your father passed away shortly after becoming a Christian? I guess I must have mis-read that. I must have.

Brother Greg, I guess what I immediately feel for is your struggle of being placed in a peculiar situation that was never supposed to happen: the ability to prolong natural death by medical means. What if there were no medical procedures to prolong your father's death. If you know, in spite of existing brain waves, that he would die were you to pull the plug, then you are now placed into a predicament in which you (or any of us) were never supposed to placed. YOU certainly are not killing your father by removing the artificial means which are prolonging his death. However, if you do not pull the plug; there is the chance your father could come out of his coma. And so, the real issue is does God require you to keep your father "alive" by means beyond what his mortal body is willing to do for itself merely because mecical technology has the capability to do so?

I think myself, Doc, that if you were having to debate about causing the death--eugenics--then you'd be in a whole different ball game. For we do not know if God will heal someone who is either contemplating suicide (due to terminal illness) or is being considered for a eugenic by family members rather than by one's self. But this isn't the case with you. However, what about that slim possibility of your dad coming out of the coma--I'm assuming that in this case with your father it is possible that he could do so? If you take him off the machines and he dies, would God point the finger at you and say, "You should have kept him on it permentantly until there were absolutely not "signs" of life."?

Doc, I do not know what God thinks. I do believe that if, to the best of medical science, it was believed as conclusively as possible that your father would die if you pulled the plug, then it would seem that it is a long, long shot that keeping him alive, if he is really being kept alive, is something you are not required to do. It is God's job to heal, to save, and to decide if life is to remain or depart. If you have given this situation the time you are able, and it is apparent that indeed a miracle is necessary to revive your father, how can you be responsible for not artifically prolonging the normal ebb and flow of life and death? Yes, in some circumstances there is perhaps the universal "ought" that compels one to wait just a little longer. But when there is nothing left to hold on to, the "ought" becomes guilt or irrationality because of our heart's longing for our loved ones. We then step over something of our responisibilities and accomplish little if nothing but more sorrow and pain.

My heart goes out for you, Doc, as does all of our hearts here at CVM. Whatever decision you make, you have my support, because you are not taking life, you are trying to work within its delicate boundries . . . boundries which have become very difficult to distinguish in view of our modern technilogical age. Either way, you have my support.

Keith

graygirl
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78

Posted 12/21/2002 9:20 AM (GMT -6)

Amen Keith.

I can't think of a better way to capture the dilemma. it's not our call to make. we were never suppose grapple with these kind of choices. i can't imagine how difficult it must be.

God understands that we are not equipped to make such distinctions. His grace will follow you whichever way you go.

praying for you,

GG

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 12/21/2002 11:31 AM (GMT -6)

Greg, I’m so sorry that your family is going through such a sad and painful process, especially at this time of year. When my mom was dying there was a great deal of hope for a miracle at the beginning, but as the months progressed it became clear that she would not survive the cancer. She accepted what was happening to her long before we did. She said that she was not afraid to die, but that she was afraid of the physical pain she was facing with the advance of the disease and the withering away of her body. Her biggest concern was that the hospice would be able to manage the pain through morphine. The nurses did everything they could to give her the right dosages, but when they gave her too much she would become groggy and unable to talk or interact, and when they gave her too little she would be in horrible pain that would then take days to get back under control.

We were very lucky as a family to have those months with our mother – to have reconciliation and healing and silliness and joy. We got to tell her we loved her. We got to sit around talking about nothing and yet meaning everything. We got to unravel a few mysteries, and leave a few others untouched. We got to see sunlight on snow, and the birds at the bird feeder. Even at the edge of death the beauty of a single winter afternoon held its promise and its joy.

But there was a point at which it was obvious that mom’s battle with the pain was being lost. When she had come out of the initial surgery they said her insides were “liquid” from the gigantic tumor, and they said she had six weeks to live. She lasted almost six months, out of sheer determination and desire, in a body that was more spirit than matter. She stayed alive so that she could spend time with her children and grandchildren, and ease us into her dying. But she made it clear toward the end that she did not want any heroic efforts to resuscitate her, and she asked that her pain medication be increased to whatever levels were necessary. As it turned out she lapsed into unconsciousness only at the very end, and it took only a few days for her to let go. On the last day the nurses gave her morphine at the slightest sign of pain. And she died with dignity in the way she had asked, with her family around her in a hospice set up like a home, with a sunroom and windows onto a lake.

The amount of morphine she was given at the end was probably high enough to kill her. I don’t know what I would have done if the nurses had refused. I believe I would have fought hard to honor her wishes, but I’m glad I didn’t have to. And what is the point of the pain when there is no hope of survival, nothing but more pain and incapacitation?

My mom had been a nurse years ago, and perhaps for that reason she was amazingly frank about telling us what was happening to her body. She shared her death with us unselfconsciously, as a final gift. And what she shared was that although there was a time to hope and pray for miracles, there came a time to embrace the life that was left in all its particularity, without a view to the future, but with a fierce attention to the present moment, to what each breath had to offer. And then there came a time to let each other go.

When I wheeled my mom out on the deck for a smoke (“Why stop now?” she had said, “They already ‘got’ me.”) we weren’t worrying about the past, about what had come and gone, about what was dead and buried. We weren’t worried about the irretrievable flow of time that spread backward away from her in the wake of her life. We weren’t worried about some dream of her future, beckoning like a mirage. Our full attention fell on this one moment, as I settled the blankets around her birdlike body, and the trail of smoke from her cigarette meandered upward slowly dissipating, from order into chaotic absorption into the air itself, until smoke and air were indistinguishable. The deck half in blue shadow, half transfigured by the winter sun; snow glittering over a dormant earth. Shadow into light, life into death into life, matter into spirit, and all the human frailty made beautiful by the sun, absorbed and transformed in the moment. God so loved the world…

The world was never so beautiful as when my mother was dying.

Every situation is different, but when we cling like an addiction to the thought that life is precious at any cost we lose the very life that we wish to save. Life is not precious at any cost. Sometimes the cost is too high. When we have exhausted the present moment, and have nothing left but a past to be grieved and a future to be hoped for beyond realistic hope, sometimes we need to abandon all our efforts and reclaim reality and let go.

Unfortunately, the legal machine when set in motion doesn’t always recognize the individual life, or place much value on the family’s wishes at each ambiguous turn of events. The legal machine is set up to operate on the principle of the sanctity of life, as if the principle were more sacred than our father or mother before us. So, at each step we try to make the best decision possible for our loved one, with the best information we have at hand, not knowing that we are setting something in motion that cannot be stopped, that will move on ahead without our love as a guide. It’s as if the law says: you get to choose whether or not to resuscitate, but once chosen you are stuck with that path.

Life is precious, to be sure, but death need not be fought against in every situation with everything at our disposal. The law should let us change our mind when it is clear that the measure of life that has been saved is not bearable for the patient or the family. Even the presence of brainwaves cannot be a universal measure, because the compassion for and dignity of the beautiful person we love must weigh more than some strict medical definition of life.

We were fortunate to be able to care for my mom in a hospice rather than a hospital. Hospitals are geared toward saving life, and therefore view death as a failure. Hospices, on the other hand, view death as an inevitability, and so are geared toward quality of life and management of pain and tending to the wishes of the patient and the family. My impression was that the rules could be bent in the interest of the patient. Loved ones should be able to make decisions based on what they know that the individual would want. And sometimes that means withdrawing life support when it appears that meaningful recovery will not happen, or that the life recovered would not be what the patient would ever wish to come back to.

These are just my thoughts, such as they are. Every situation is different, and as in everything, love should be the guide. The “absolute” and the “principle” lost their sway with me many messy life circumstances ago. Life is certainly guided by principle, but principle should never be mistaken for life. Even when that principle purports to be about life. If one argues that I have made love my principle, I would say simply that love as an idea is nothing, and that the principle of love is nothing. Love always exists in the concrete now, in relationship, in the present reality. And love has no set formula; sometimes it means fighting to the end to preserve life, sometimes it means letting life go in love and grief.

With love and prayers,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

Mephi2K
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713

Posted 12/21/2002 1:24 PM (GMT -6)

Sup.

I'll keep it short. I would completely agree with Semeia here. Especially...

quote:
Every situation is different, but when we cling like an addiction to the thought that life is precious at any cost we lose the very life that we wish to save. Life is not precious at any cost. Sometimes the cost is too high. When we have exhausted the present moment, and have nothing left but a past to be grieved and a future to be hoped for beyond realistic hope, sometimes we need to abandon all our efforts and reclaim reality and let go.

Bottom line: I simply do think that there is a place for euthanasia (not just "letting someone go") Frankly, if circumstances were sufficient, I would want it done for me. Definitely. All my peeps already know this. I leave the judgment of my actions to God and his gracious knowledge of my situation.

Doc, I cannot begin to imagine how things are for you right now. Just know that I (and everyone else here) am holding it down for you in prayer and petition. I trust the love and attention to the Spirit will lead. Go with your heart, know that God is lovingly merciful...and shake the haters off like fleas. Much love to you, brother. I will ever have your back.

To the end,
Dwayne E. Polk II aka

PS: Semeia, good to "see" you again. Brilliant writing as usual...

Edited by - Mephi2K on 12/21/2002 6:25:24 PM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/21/2002 4:27 PM (GMT -6)

This is the ninth post on this thread. At least four posts are unwaveringly against euthanasia. The last two surprised me, and were for it. My observation here is that the difference is not small, and the prospect for 'processing' through to consensus, if honesty matters, it that there is none. So my observation is that like someone observed, the issue is HUGE (Life is huge, and death too.) and more than we can size ourselves to face. (We can only approach Him who is merciful, and entreat His help.) Its too huge.

Wolterstorff, who was raised a Calvinist, only later came to recognize the place of suffering in the life of the Christian. My own Calvinist pastor has had real and personal difficulty--in many ways--framing and dealing with it too. But suffering has ALWAYS had a HUGE place in the life of the Christian. There are few chapters in the New Testement that do not talk about it. And its NOT all individual. Its sometimes corporate, and shared.

The HUGE size of life and death, and the HUGE witness of the Spirit in the Church regarding suffering SHOULD give us pause. Whom do we trust?

Pray!

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 12/21/2002 10:14 PM (GMT -6)

I really appreciate the feedback and shared experiences. Thank you.

I am in total agreement with the down-side of medical advances. The principle of portionality says that the potential for everything (and everyone) for good is balanced by a potential for evil. Yet, in the fallen world, it seems impossible to have the one without the other. The benefit of saving my fathers life has created this awkward painful scenario where it seems he would have been better off had he died.

I also agree that there is in principle a difference between "letting die" and euthanasia. But in some circumstances the line gets rather blurry. When you pull a respirator off a person and/or stop intervenous feeding while they yet have brain activity and even, here and there, some form of consciousness, the line is fuzzy. You are, in essence, suffocating and/ starving them. Is this "letting nature takes it course"?

We believe that, if there is no hope of significant recovery (not easy to determine with absolute certainty -- especially if you believe in the possibility of miracles) this is what my father would want. Laying in some institution in a quasi-comatose state unable to communicate or even stratch an ich is not "life."

But here is where "ethics" enters the picture. What determines "quasi-comotose"? In fact, in my opinion, things are even WORSE if a person is NOT quasi-comotose, but fully conscious, locked in their head, utterly unable to communicate or move. (I have read of a brain disorder where a person is FULLY conscious but UTTERLY unable to move a muscle in their body, including facial muscles). If I was in this situation, I would PRAY for death.

Shouldn't a family be empowered to make this decision for such a person? Even if they DON'T need a respirator... isn't it merciful to stop sustaining their life with tube feeding?

Is this letting "nature" takes it course, or is it killing?

If its letting "nature" take it course, what of parents of severely deformed and retarded babies who can't swallow on their own? Should they be allowed to let "nature" takes it course.

Thanks again for the feedback. I was informed today that we have to make some permanent decisions within the next week. Keep us in prayer.

Greg

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/21/2002 10:54 PM (GMT -6)

Doc-

Not much to add to what others have said. I would agree with whomever it was who earlier said that "pulling the plug is not euthanasia." Our ability through machinery to keep the "body" alive these days is astounding. If OUR abilities is the LINE, and our modern abilities to sustain physical life are constantly improving, then the line is constantly moving, making last year's choice to pull the plug different from this year's choice to pull it. Ought we to allow the machinery to define the line? It's not easy. I understand the line is not always so clear. I love and pray for you and your family. After cancer surgery, my Dad is now home on oxygen for a few weeks getting ready for open-heart. Mom had her lung surgery for cancer a few months ago and is on kemo. As a family we are thinking about these questions.

I think it is very important to honor your Dad's wishes (if you know what they are). If HE thought through this kind of situation and declared what HE wanted done, then honor HIM.

Love to you and yours,
Tom

"When you mix things up they get messy" Fred

Edited by - TGB on 12/22/2002 03:58:56 AM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/22/2002 2:28 AM (GMT -6)

(All painting done in egg tempora. From: www.timlowly.com/resources/tglimages.html)

quote:
..."When Temma was born my whole faith world was turned upside down," says Sherrie Lowly. A lifelong Christian, like her husband, artist Tim Lowly, she wasn't planning to have a child when she became pregnant in 1985, though she and Tim were willing to be parents. They became concerned when she didn't gain...

From the November 22, 2002 Chicago Reader (Author: Fred Camper)

Artist, Tim Lowly.
Work Title: "Carry Me"

Artist, Tim Lowly.
Work Title: "Tend"

Artist, Tim Lowly.
Work Title: "In Extasis"

Artist, Tim Lowly.
Work Title: "Bath 4-6"

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/22/2002 2:48 AM (GMT -6)

CONTINUED...

Artist, Tim Lowly.
Work Title: "dadbed"

Artist, Tim Lowly.
Work Title: "toesmall"

Artist, Tim Lowly.
Work Title: "Age of Angels"
7x7 inches

Artist, Tim Lowly.
Work Title: "Untitled (I Am),
15x23 inches

Artist, Tim Lowly.
Work Title: "As the Earth Waits"
17x13 inches

Artist, Tim Lowly.
Work Title: "Proof"

Artist, Tim Lowly.
Work Title: "Day to Day"

Artist, Tim Lowly.
Work Title: "TDL 1 (Stoneware)"

Artist, Tim Lowly.
Work Title: "TDL 3 (Milk of Vesuvius)"

Artist, Tim Lowly.
Work Title: "TDL 3 (Wax)"

Artist, Tim Lowly.
Work Title: "What do you see?"

Edited by - fred on 12/22/2002 2:55:11 PM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/22/2002 2:55 AM (GMT -6)

See these:
www.timlowly.com/resources/tglbrunetti.html
www.timlowly.com/resources/tglbrunettiecc.html
www.timlowly.com/resources/tglkarenhs2.html

quote:
Lowly is a bless-every-blade-of-grass realist who produces achingly sincere paintings that show concern for humanity.

The Chicago Tribune, October 6, 1989

Mephi2K
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713

Posted 12/22/2002 3:04 AM (GMT -6)

Fred,

2 things:

1) Could you fix the pictures so as not to extend the page out too long? I think that'd be helpful.

2) The art is interesting. I'm assuming that this has something to deal with the topic here. But my head's not been right for a minute. Could you tie the link for me? Give me some clarity.

Thanks,

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 12/22/2002 3:42 AM (GMT -6)

Greg,

Like Mephi, I am for euthanasia. I think the family should be able to decide on how to carry out the wishes of their loved one. If it were me, I would want morphine when the life support was removed. And I totally agree that semi-consciousness trapped in a paralyzed body is worse than total coma.

I disagree entirely with Fred that suffering as a Christian "role" has anything to do with this. For one thing, suffering is something we can choose for ourselves, but it is perverse to "choose" suffering for someone else because they are a Christian. Another equally powerful Christian choice is mercy, which I believe we can choose for someone else.

Thanks,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

graygirl
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78

Posted 12/22/2002 9:25 AM (GMT -6)

uhmm i don't get the artwork either.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/22/2002 9:53 AM (GMT -6)

Meph, on techi-stuff. I had centered the three pictures using the fourth button, but it TRIPLED the images into nine. Wierd!

graygirl, you will have to click on the links to get some story. You too, Meph. Art may be worth a thousand words; but that doesn't mean you can cash in the pictures for text.

Tim's daughter is so low functioning, that -- if I remember properly -- she has NEVER moved...in her life. And her cognative function may even be so that she does not have an intellectual understanding that you are there.

Again, try the links.

What's my reason for putting it there. Its tied to why I didn't say anything but post text (Which, for me, is "saying" something.) Doc has a paragraph that is so totally offensive to those of us who work with special education kids -- particularly Autism. I think it is fine for him to talk about his OWN situation. But he stepped OVER the line into speaking of other people. I judge that it felt good -- a rush -- to do so. But someone in grief ought not to try picking up the mantel of judgement for others. I won't get on his case. I can let it pass as bad judgement in a bad moment. That's cool. But it DEMANDED some sort of response.

This was a POSITIVE, affirming-based response. And it could only be done by someone who has LIVED IT, as Tim, his wife, and Temma have.

Again, GO and click the article LINKS. Find out for yourself. Only find out if you are motivated to click them.

Those unmoved may pass on their way...on the other side of the road.

(For all of my friends...)

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/22/2002 10:03 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Semeia: I disagree entirely with Fred that suffering as a Christian "role" has anything to do with this. For one thing, suffering is something we can choose for ourselves, but it is perverse to "choose" suffering for someone else because they are a Christian. Another equally powerful Christian choice is mercy, which I believe we can choose for someone else.

Well, I never said that Doc's dad was in that situation. Seems the majority here didn't either. But what you were drifting (past his situation, into something you wanted to air about) is another matter.

I posted about one particular situation.

But I also DID post that against situations that would be ONLY euthanasia, that the matter of the role of suffering in our lives is relevant. (And I won't get into it here.)

But you go further, Semeia:

quote:
Another equally powerful Christian choice is mercy, which I believe we can choose for someone else.

I really DON'T care to be the one to debate you, Semeia. But in my eyes that goes too easily into assisted suicide, and to suicide.

And, so, I would caringly counsel Doc from posting about such on a public bullitin board; and I would also sternly question him, as an ordained minister, whether he is misrepresenting those who ordain(ed) him if he were to voice such. Ordination is not a private, individualized matter.

Edited by - fred on 12/22/2002 3:04:31 PM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/22/2002 10:08 AM (GMT -6)

as to the artwork...

It matters that SOMEONE has lived something in the Lord. They are "witnesses" (Which is the meaning of the word "martyr.") to and FOR us all.

They wear a Crown! The Bible says so.

That should be our worldview.

Edited by - fred on 12/23/2002 12:08:48 AM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/22/2002 7:07 PM (GMT -6)

Almost an ICON.

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 12/22/2002 7:18 PM (GMT -6)

Fred: Doc has a paragraph that is so totally offensive to those of us who work with special education kids -- particularly Autism. I think it is fine for him to talk about his OWN situation. But he stepped OVER the line into speaking of other people. I judge that it felt good -- a rush -- to do so. But someone in grief ought not to try picking up the mantel of judgement for others. I won't get on his case. I can let it pass as bad judgement in a bad moment. That's cool. But it DEMANDED some sort of response…. This was a POSITIVE, affirming-based response. And it could only be done by someone who has LIVED IT, as Tim, his wife, and Temma have.

Doc: The "line" I supposedly stepped over is a projection of Fred’s. The only time I mentioned severely deformed and retarded people was when I asked a question. Here’s the paragraph.

Is this (refraining from feeding) letting "nature" takes it course, or is it killing? If its letting "nature" take it course, what of parents of severely deformed and retarded babies who can't swallow on their own? Should they be allowed to let "nature" takes it course.

The topic under discussion was the blurry area between "letting nature takes it course" and euthanasia. And, since everyone seemed okay with "letting nature takes it course," I was furthering the discussion by applying in an area where, I suspect, most would find it unacceptable. I’m trying to help us think through the possible implications of what we are saying.

How Fred read this as "picking up the mantel of judgment for others" I haven’t a clue. Judging from the bewilderment others expressed over his posted art (a bewilderment I certainly shared), I suspect he was alone in his misinterpretation.

I would encourage Fred to read postings more carefully before attempting a response to them.

I would also Fred not to make assumptions about those who post. His response assumes that I have not LIVED with the issue of mentally challenged children, and he mentions autism in particular. I will not go into it, but he’d be surprised to find out how completely wrong he is on THAT one! The fact that I bother to even comment on this is evidence of how furious it made me.

Fred: in my eyes that goes too easily into assisted suicide, and to suicide. And, so, I would caringly counsel Doc from posting about such on a public bullitin board; and I would also sternly question him, as an ordained minister, whether he is misrepresenting those who ordain(ed) him if he were to voice such.

Doc: I don’t have a clue as to what Fred is talking about here. Is he thinking I was advocating assisted suicide??? I’m suspecting that anything is possible at this point.

Fred, I’m sorry you found my questioning offensive. I hope you can now appreciate that my intention was the exact opposite of how you read it. And, if you knew my story, you’d see how completely offensive your response was to me, owing to the assumptions you made about my life.

Doc

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

Edited by - GregBoyd on 12/23/2002 12:21:21 AM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/22/2002 7:42 PM (GMT -6)

Doc: "If its letting "nature" take it course, what of parents of severely deformed and retarded babies who can't swallow on their own? Should they be allowed to let "nature" takes it course."

Fred: Yes, that is the one. I left it alone--with respect to written reaction. But it sickened me (the image it evoked), and I felt that I had to respond.

Doc: His post assumes that I have not LIVED with the issue

Fred: No, I only posted art by someone who had. (I'm not qualified.)

Doc:

quote:
Fred: in my eyes that goes too easily into assisted suicide, and to suicide. And, so, I would caringly counsel Doc from posting about such on a public bulletin board; and I would also sternly question him, as an ordained minister, whether he is misrepresenting those who ordain(ed) him if he were to voice such.

Doc: I don't have a clue as to what Fred is talking about here. Is he thinking I was advocating assisted suicide??? I’m suspecting that anything is possible at this point.

This was NOT about what you'd posted, Doc. I'm not even saying that Semeia was necessarily saying that. But "mercy, which I believe we can choose for someone else." did look like "mercy killing." Since she was advocating euthenasia, that seems to be what she (not you) was suggestiong.

Again, not you, Doc.

(But I am quite concerned that someone Googling you might get the wrong inpression.)

Doc: Fred, I’m sorry you found my questioning offensive. I hope you can now appreciate that my intention was the exact opposite of how you read it. And, if you knew my story, you’d see how completely offensive your response was to me, owing to the assumptions you made about my life.

Fred: much of what you read as being directed by me at you ISN'T directed at you. But let me apologize anyways. I think I read your intention fine. I appreciated it. (I just think you [uadded a second intention. But then I can be wrong.)

One thing I would like to explain. You are a pastor. You are no longer an academic. As I see it academics get to deal with theory. Clergy have a different set of responsibilities: both as to ministry, and to the body of the church. THIS is such a "hot topic." I think that you should have input from those in your church before you put your name on a discussion like this one. I really know nothing here -- and KNOW it. But I'd be no friend if I didn't ask what is on my mind! Do you endanger the ministry of WHC by fielding this discussion? That is not solely your own business. Further, do you subject your ministry? Like I said, you aren't in academic robes anymore. you wouldn't be perceived such. Take care, friend.

Responses here are divided. Its a hot topic. Take care.

Friend.

Edited by - fred on 12/23/2002 12:46:08 AM

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 12/22/2002 8:05 PM (GMT -6)

Wow! The topic of euthanasia is as touchy and emotional of a topic as abortion (only on the other side of the birthing process)

The hard part with knowing how to allow someone to die is knowing how far we will push the envelope. If we question the quality of life a person in a coma has might we not also question the quality of life of many other people too? Might we not question the quality of life an elderly person living in a nursing home has after having half their body deformed from a stroke so that they cannot feed themselves nor eat without food drooling down their face? Might we not question the quality of life a person has who struggles with SEVERE learning or psychological disorders that cause them to feel "different"? My point is WHAT IS QUALITY OF LIFE?

We each get a hand dealt to us which we must play out. The hands aren't equally dealt and some feel utterly hopeless but are they? For instance, I talked with a person who was a paraplegic. They had become this way due to a fight they got in during a drinking binge they had been on. This person ended up losing their home, their family, and were at that time living in a nursing home even though they were quite young. The person asked me to give them ONE tangible reason they should not take their life. They wanted me to give them one reason to maintain hope in their situation. What a hand they were dealt! Hopeless? Quality of life?

Just like the majority on this thread I don't personally see anything wrong with pulling the plug when a machine is the only thing keeping someone alive (especially if that's in their living will) BUT depriving a person of their basic needs (which includes food)? HOW FAR DO WE PUSH IT? When do we allow God to be God and not try to assist him?

MY POINT IS: I think this is a topic that is good to explore. It's a part of reality.

Doc, as far as your personal situation with your dad I say wait upon the Lord and let the Spirit guide you. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart ... and He will make your path straight."

trosie

Edited by - trosie on 12/23/2002 01:32:32 AM

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 12/22/2002 8:17 PM (GMT -6)

Fred: it sickened me (the image it evoked), and I felt that I had to respond.

Doc: How can a question sicken you? Perhaps the way someone might RESPOND to the question sickened you, and you assumed I WAS IMPLYING THAT RESPONSE? I don't know. But I don't get how my pushing the implications of a position forward with a question could be offensive to you -- especially since you now say you understood my intention!

Fred : (In response to my statement that his post assumes that I have not LIVED with the issue). No, I only posted art by someone who had. (I'm not qualified.)

Doc: But in your RESPONSE to questions about WHY you posted the art, you specifically said that I "crossed a line" in speaking "for others", that I was picking up the mantel of judgment "for others" (whatever that might mean), and that only those who (in contrast to me?) have LIVED in the world of disabled children (such as your artist) can speak on this.

Fred: One thing I would like to explain. You are a pastor. You are no longer an academic. As I see it academics get to deal with theory. Clergy have a different set of responsibilities: both as to ministry, and to the body of the church.

Doc: I've always worn both hats -- urh, robes. And in my view the Church SHOULD be able to handle diversity on theories as well as deal with responsibilities. But thanks for your concern.

Fred: Do you endanger the ministry of WHC by fielding this discussion?

Doc: Heck Fred, I write books on controversial issues. I speak on controversial issues. So I don't think I'm doing more damage than I've already done by DISCUSSING controversial issues. But more importantly, OF COURSE this "endangers" the ministry of WHC -- as do my books -- if by this you mean "might offend people." But there are others who gravitate TO WHC precisely because we aren't afraid of some diversity of opinion and talking about tough issues out loud.

Fred: Like I said, you aren't in academic robes anymore. you wouldn't be perceived such. Take care, friend.

Doc: Thanks again for your concern. But I have to tell you I gave up worrying about how I would be "perceived" by other Christians and religious people quite some time ago. (I'm not sure this was ever high on my list) I'm FAR more concerned with how non-Christians perceive me, my ministry, and the people I pastor. Most importantly, do they get the overwhelming impression that I, and we, LOVE with an outrageous love that can only be explained if Jesus Christ REALLY IS Lord? Next to this, every other question is drivel (I Cor 13:1-4).

Blessings
Greg

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

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