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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 12/30/2002 8:11 AM (GMT -6) |   | Graduating in from a Lutheran School with a degree in Religion provides much fuel to throw on the Bonhoeffer fire...
How about WAR?
Bonhoeffer wrote in 1932...
"The command 'you shall not kill,' and the Word, 'love your enemy,' are given to us simply to obey. Every form of war service, unless it be Good Samaritan service, and every preparation for war, is forbidden for the Christian."
Yet G. W. is leading us to the frontline all the while proclaiming to have his values centered in Christ.
Bonhoeffer himself was put to death for his failed attempt to blow Hitler away (literally).
What is the Christian role in resistance to war and should the Christian be involved in the service of war? Is Bonhoeffer a hypocrite?
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Electra
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Total Posts : 611
| Posted 12/30/2002 8:23 AM (GMT -6) | | One of my classmates gave an excellent paper on this apparent contradiction in Bonhoeffer’s thought. I hope my memory does it justice… The basic thesis was that Bonhoeffer was a pacifist. However, Bonhoeffer subordinated all ideologies, including pacifism, to the concrete situation. When the concrete situation is one of destructive totalitarianism, “jamming a spoke in the wheel” of the system may be justified. But we can’t know that, we can only act in faith according to our understanding of God’s call in the concrete situation, and trust that if our understanding is mistaken, God will forgive and correct us.
Electra
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GregBoyd
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Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/30/2002 12:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Electra nailed Bon's view. The trouble with war as such, however, is that its impossible for anyone to enter into the concrete situation. Heck, I have no idea whether this is justified or not. Even given what the top guns report about Hussein -- and I'm not sure I believe them totally anyway -- its not clear that war is the only viable option. And I wonder why we're backing down from N. Korea when they are explicitly and aggressively building up a nuclear capacity. But then again, if I was North Korean and/or Iraqian, I might wonder why only the "big boys" get to have the "big toys" to destroy millions, while we get stuck with stupid stud missles that hardly make it to the enemies cities.
How do the perfectly confident protestors of the war get their knowledge to be so confident? How do the perfectly confident defenders of the war get THEIR knowledge? I read the same papers, listen to the same news... and I don't know jack.
The little I do know has made me totally cynical of the battle cry "For God, Freedom and Country" -- like we go to war on principles. Contrast our invasion of Iraq (urh... salvation of Kuwait, sorry) with our stance toward Rawanda -- a bloodbath occuring at the same time, on a MUCH MUCH greater scale -- we did zippo. Hardly got mentioned in the newspaper. 800,000 people massacred.
The difference?
Oil.
And oil means gas prices.
And THAT is something every true blue flag waving pure hearted American is willing to kill for.
So... should we go? Should we not?
Comes down, I guess, to
a) whether your a pacifist or just war theorist and, if the latter
b) whether you trust Bush
I'm confused on "a" and doubtful of 'b". So, from where I sit, I can just advice people to pray and obey.
I'm kinda worthless on politics, ain't I?
doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/30/2002 2:05 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm more worried about the fact that a pastor of a big church, the leader of that church, who influences many people through his books, cannot seem to find a strong position on such an important topic. Makes me want to rethink many of his other positions...people who don't know "jack" probably should not be discussing the issue
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John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 12/30/2002 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | | To the contrary, I find it very refreshing in a pastor to NOT act like he knows everything. Most I've known have been a self-appointed expert on most everything especially politics. Some were democrats, some republicans, and some somewhere in between, but all were absolutely sure they had God's perspective on politics. They certainly couldn't all have been correct.
And it seems clear that Dr. Boyd's comment, "I don't know jack," was simply meant to say, "I don't have enough information to make a judgment in this situation." But perhaps the honorman is also the omniscient man. 
By the way, Bonhoeffer was da man! From what I have read, he was only involved in the conspiracy to overthrow Hitler, not the one who pulled the trigger (perhaps a trivial distinction). I do think that a reasonable case can be made that killing Hitler was the best option among those available at the time. It would certainly have been promotive of the best interests of the entire world. But Jesus's commandment to love one's enemies seems quite difficult to reconcile with any sort of violent action against them.
On the other hand, I find it hard (at least right now) to imagine that protecting the innocent and preserving the (relative) peace of society wouldn't qualify as justified use of force (in cases where it were truly justified). I don't think Jesus would simply stand by and let someone physically abuse a child, for instance. What do you think?
Edited by - John Earp on 12/30/2002 10:39:54 PM
Edited by - John Earp on 12/30/2002 10:43:44 PM
Edited by - John Earp on 12/30/2002 11:34:34 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 12/30/2002 7:22 PM (GMT -6) | | John Earp:
quote:
By the way, Bonhoeffer was da man! From what I have read, he was only involved in the conspiracy to overthrow Hitler, not the one who pulled the trigger (perhaps a trivial distinction).
I might be mistaken, but I believe Bonhoeffer was actually involved in two separate conspiracies to assasinate the Fuhrer. The most notable was the second attempt in which Colonel Stauffenberg detonated a bomb which failed to kill Hitler. The Colonel was executed that same night.
John Earp:
quote:
I do think that a reasonable case can be made that killing Hitler was the best option among those available at the time. It would certainly have been promotive of the best interests of the entire world. But Jesus's commandment to love one's enemies seems quite difficult to reconcile with any sort of violent action against them.
Perhaps the best way to love Hitler was to end his sin cycle?
In a letter and poem sent to Eberhard Bethge the day after the assasination attempt, Bonhoeffer writes, "I discovered later and am still discovering right up to this moment, that it is only by living completely in this world that one learns to have faith,...
O twondrous transformation! Your hands, strong and active, are bound.
Powerless, alone, full clearly knowing your action has ended,
from your lips there yet comes the cry of relief,
that calmly and trusting, you surrender your struggle to more powerful hands....
Freedom, so long have we sought you in discipline, action, and suffering.
Dying, we now behold you indeed in the face of our God."
These last several lines come from a poem entitled "Stations on the Way to Freedom" in which Bonhoeffer releases the struggle for freedom to God in great relief to himself. There seemed to be an intense turmoil within Dietrich struggling to have control of freedom. Yet freedom was finally found in turning over control to God, to trust God in his power.
The great triumph for Bonhoeffer seemed to be that he found faith in the failure, realizing that God is actively and purposefully fighting evil in this world and that suffering would be part of his journey to freedom.
>>>"And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth." Kahlil Gibran from THE PROPHET | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
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Total Posts : 179
| Posted 12/30/2002 7:25 PM (GMT -6) | | GregBoyd:
quote:
and I don't know jack
must have been one of the lesser known Bonhoeffer brothers...
>>>"And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth." Kahlil Gibran from THE PROPHET | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/31/2002 3:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Hosea 4:6 anyone...the truth is not so elusive that one cannot find it if one truly wants it. Throwing up your hands and talking about "democrats and republications and politics," is no excuse. Unless, of course, one does not believe in truth. Then again, it is much easier to plead ignorance (I read the same papers...).
All that is needed for evil to spread is for good people to do nothing...but perhaps discuss the issues on bulletin boards...
Edited by - honorman on 12/31/2002 8:09:00 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
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Total Posts : 179
| Posted 12/31/2002 10:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Honorman:
quote:
Hosea 4:6 anyone...the truth is not so elusive that one cannot find it if one truly wants it. Throwing up your hands and talking about "democrats and republications and politics," is no excuse. Unless, of course, one does not believe in truth.
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge;
I reject you from being a priest to me.
And since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children"
Ouch! this hurts when used out of context.
In the end, I believe even Bonhoeffer did "throw up his hands." Immediately after receiving word that the assasination attempt was a failure, he penned the poem "Stations on the Way to Freedom" (mentioned above) in which he acknowledged that his role had indeed morphed from one of self-action to that of God-action through which it seems he found a tremendous amount of peace and freedom.
Honorman:
quote:
Unless, of course, one does not believe in truth
A belief in truth is of little use without access to truth.
It's difficult to fault anyone for "throwing up their hands" in reference to gaining knowledge on matters of politics, and international war games. Indeed it seems the greater impact of the individual can be made on another individual rather than the international. The reference to "lack of knowledge" in Hosea 4:6 is actually pointing to the same knowledge described in 4:1 which is the "knowlege of God" It should not be applied to topics outside of "knowledge of God" especially since it is contained within a prophetic spech that is specific to the inhabitants of the northern kingdom at a very specific time.
>>>"And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth." Kahlil Gibran from THE PROPHET | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 1/1/2003 12:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Let’s not confuse truth with certainty.
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8 | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 1/1/2003 12:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Speaking of religion and politics, a man named Jonathan Edwards has decided to run for president. This Jonathan Edwards (as opposed to the Great Awakening Jonathan Edwards of “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” fame) is a democratic senator from North Carolina.
Sorry for the non sequiter.
Electra
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8 | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 1/1/2003 8:39 PM (GMT -6) | | Jonathan Edwards seems like another odd character to make a run for the oval office...
He is 2/3 of the way through his first term in public office, he has virtually no name recognition, and barely won a majority vote in his first and only election at 51%. He is a millionaire however, giving him a headstart on fundraising.
It seems as though the democrats may have too many senators in the race and not enough candidates with executive branch ecperience looking at a run. A senator hasn't been elected to the presidency since JFK (many served as a senator but that was not theiir job when running for election). Every other president has been either a sitting vice-president or a governer. It seems like the trend in the last 40 years is the electorate seeks those with executive branch experience for the office of the president.
Those in or looking at being in the race so far on the Deocratic side:
Joe Biden U.S. Senator
Bill Bradley Former U.S. Senator
Wesley Clark Retired Army General
Tom Daschle U.S. Senator
Howard Dean * Governor
Chris Dodd U.S. Senator
John Edwards U.S. Senator
Russ Feingold U.S. Senator
Dick Gephardt Congressman
Bob Graham U.S. Senator
Gary Hart Former U.S. Senator
Jesse Jackson Jr. Congressman
Marcy Kaptur Congresswoman
Bob Kerrey Former U.S. Senator
John Kerry * U.S. Senator
Dennis Kucinich Congressman
Joe Lieberman U.S. Senator
Bob Reich Former Labor Secretary
Al Sharpton * Civil Rights Activist
>>>"And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth." Kahlil Gibran from THE PROPHET | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/2/2003 9:29 AM (GMT -6) | | ...and let us not confuse complexicity of an issue with the lack of a truth answer on how a person should act. Seldom does a person of integrity act from complete certainty. (I never mentioned certainty in any of my posts, so try not to confuse the issue.) Yet a person of intergrity will act on the conviction that, given enough prayer and information a path can be found to walk on, even if such a path is not 100 percent certain. Throwing one's hand up in the air is never the answer on this issue or any other. When a person does that they are either not willing to fully investigate the issue and, as such, are seeking an easy way out and thus, have no one to blame but themselves for not taking a stand on the issue. As I said before, those who don't know jack probably should not be discussing the issue...
Edited by - honorman on 01/02/2003 2:32:03 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/2/2003 9:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Fyodor: interesting cop out. Now we have no access to the truth. Funny...just tootoo funny...people who don't want to make a stand invaribly appeal to the complexicity of politics and all the "games." For those who want it, there is always an excuse...this, by the way, is a very postmodern issue. We, as Christians, believe in following the truth. Its just too bad there is none in the society we live in today (or at least none we can truly decipher). So we can win both ways...may God's judgment on us be tempered with mercy...
Edited by - honorman on 01/02/2003 2:37:21 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 1/2/2003 8:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
interesting cop out. Now we have no access to the truth. Funny...just tootoo funny...people who don't want to make a stand invaribly appeal to the complexicity of politics and all the "games."
Making a stand on issues regarding politics is something I have little difficulty with, Honorman, and it seems as though you don't either. Now, to make my previous argument more clear....
I did not say that we do not have access to truth, on the contrary, I stated, that "A belief in truth is of little use without access to truth." Sometimes we have access to truth, sometimes we don't. In many cases, the truth is indeed withheld. Using the same definition for truth as Dr. Boyd used in God of the Possible, "A statement is true if it corresponds with reality, and false if it does not,"
To say that I have access to all that corressponds to reality would simply be false. For example, Let's say its the 1964 election cycle. Suppose I believe it to be true that JFK was assasinated by the CIA in '63. All files pertaining to the CIA and FBI investigation have been deemed classified and will remain so until September 2038 by the National Archive. The truth of the matter is being kept hidden and classified and I have no access to it, or to say it again, proof which corresponds to the reality of the event is not within my access. Yet, it should somehow be my responsibilty to take a stand on the issue based on what I believe to be true about the matter? That which I believe to be true is an act which I would also consider unjust. Making a stand on that which I believe to be true in this case may lead me to cast votes for those in favor of overhauling the CIA and disposing of those whom I believe are responsible. The actual truth that corresponds to the case in point may be that the Russian Mafia was resposible for the assasination of JFK and the CIA did anything and everything within their power to apprehend the actual purveyors of the crime. Should I act on what I believe or what I know? In many cases we have to make choices based on what we believe is true, and yet sometimes we don't have to act on things for which we don't have an understanding that corresponds to reality.
quote:
Throwing one's hand up in the air is never the answer on this issue or any other.
I should think that I would find my life to short a span of time to learn, understand and take a stand on every issue. Therefore, on some issues, I will simply "throw up my hands in the air" and praise God that he created so many brilliant minds, persevering hearts and faithful believers to take a stand on every issue.
quote:
interesting cop out. Now we have no access to the truth.
To have no access to truth would be nothing, to have all access would be God, I'm somewhere in the middle.
"We have come to know and rely on the love God has for us"
>>>"And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth." Kahlil Gibran from THE PROPHET
Edited by - fyodor on 01/03/2003 01:26:15 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 1/4/2003 9:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Honorman: people who don't know "jack" probably should not be discussing the issue…
Doc: Yes, senior pastors should have all the information, even if no one else does. And only those who already know the answers should discuss the issue. What kind of "discuss" or "issue" is there if its all already clear? Mr. Honorman,, if YOU are "in on the know" about the status of Hussein’s arsenal, by all means let us in on it. Indeed, inform Bush – it would save a lot of time and tax money not having to have all those silly experts over there trying to determine this.
Honorman: the truth is not so elusive that one cannot find it if one truly wants it.
Doc: Aghhhh, I see: the reason I and others are uncertain about whether war is warranted is because we don’t REALLY want to find out the truth.
Honorman: Yet a person of intergrity will act on the conviction that, given enough prayer and information a path can be found to walk on, even if such a path is not 100 percent certain.
Doc: Thanks for offering me an "out." I'll plead lack of information. Please tell all of us the information you have Honorman that separates you from the "Jack" I don't know.
Honorman: people who don't want to make a stand invaribly appeal to the complexicity of politics and all the "games."
Doc: Seems like, in honorman's world, everyone except honorman "doesn’t want to make a stand" so we complexify what is really simple.
You live in an interesting world honorman.
My curiousity is dying to know: If YOU were the senior pastor of a large church, what "strong position" would you take? Would you be "strongly" FOR the war or against it? And (once again) on what definitive information would you based your "strong" position?
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/4/2003 6:15 PM (GMT -6) | | "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." I really have no interest in divulging my views one way or another, partically because that is not the point of this discussion (as far as I am concerned, in other words I did not write to debate the issue) and partically because of the onesidedness of this bulletin board (it is for the same reason that I do not wish to discuss race, homosexuality or other such topics. Surely one does not wish to be labelled "unloving"). But beyond that I only wish to state that I do have a position which I feel is pretty strong and based on the research I have done. Not perfect, but strong.
Doctor Boyd: a couple of point. To say "you don't know jack," gives, to my ear, the attitude that you are completely clueless and completely clueless people seldom know what they are talking about. Perhaps I was wrong. But perhaps you might choose your words more carefully, considering that this is, after all, an open forum and, even though it does seem to be mainly populated with your friendlies, there does seem to be those who will actually take your words for what they mean.
But beyond that, you are, after all, a pastor of a large church. You are (I assume, unless you are in a tremendous minority) paid to do so. Pastors, by and large, are paid to teach and, as such, it boggles my mind to think that a pastor of a large church could not do the research and put in the time to have an position on such an important topic that he might counsel his many church members. That isn't my universe. That is most people's universe where they elect a pastor to LEAD a church. That doesn't mean they shouldn't do the research themselves nor that they should agree with their pastor, but a pastor is called to be a leader, a position of authority over others.
By the way,I never said pastors (senior or otherwise) should have all the information. I, however, believe that most people who advocate your view simply want to remain ignorant. It is easier that way. That, of course, is a general statement and is not meant to be taken personally (I certainly wouldn't want to upset you more than you already are!)
Fyodor, I find it interesting that you pick JFK;s assasination, an issue that I have done research in, but also an issue that has no relevance to a person's life. What would it matter what position one took? Yet how a person views what we do in Iraq (and North Korea) is of central importance to the future of not only our country but many others. One should only believe information is being withheld when has reason to, not because one simply thinks it may be. Such is the seed of conspirary theorists and is an easy excuse for not believing what you don't want to believe.
But, alas, this is taking up more time than I am wishing it to and, alas again, I find such banter gets to be circular. Anyway, I am off to my "interesting" (Doctor Boyd's words) world. Thank you. I actually do find it very interesting, though, perhaps, more for the people in than from anything I may have done. I sometimes wonder if perhaps there is an alternative universe composed of my own past (such a thing has haunted me since I was a child). But then I don't know "jack" about that, so I won't discuss it here...
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 1/5/2003 3:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Doctor Boyd: a couple of point. To say "you don't know jack," gives, to my ear, the attitude that you are completely clueless and completely clueless people seldom know what they are talking about. Perhaps I was wrong. But perhaps you might choose your words more carefully, considering that this is, after all, an open forum and, even though it does seem to be mainly populated with your friendlies, there does seem to be those who will actually take your words for what they mean.
But beyond that, you are, after all, a pastor of a large church. You are (I assume, unless you are in a tremendous minority) paid to do so. Pastors, by and large, are paid to teach and, as such, it boggles my mind to think that a pastor of a large church could not do the research and put in the time to have an position on such an important topic that he might counsel his many church members. That isn't my universe. That is most people's universe where they elect a pastor to LEAD a church. That doesn't mean they shouldn't do the research themselves nor that they should agree with their pastor, but a pastor is called to be a leader, a position of authority over others.
Yeah! Get it together Greg would ya!!
gee wiz,
Then He showed me the river whose waters give life, sparkling like crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev. 22:1
Edited by - Selah on 01/05/2003 7:17:40 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 1/5/2003 3:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Sorry Honorman. I just returned home from vacation and read your post. Being that I have learned so much from other pastors/PEOPLE who may or may not know "jack" about politics, it just struck me as funny that you would generalize the way you did.
On another note, I'm wondering why you would say this:
quote:
"But beyond that I only wish to state that I do have a position which I feel is pretty strong and based on the research I have done. Not perfect, but strong."
and not go on to share your conclusions with the rest of us. I mean, why do you "wish to state" that you have a position at all if you aren't going to tell us what it is? I, for one, am curious. really. I think we could all learn from each other...
thanks,
selah
Then He showed me the river whose waters give life, sparkling like crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev. 22:1
Edited by - Selah on 01/05/2003 4:15:04 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 1/5/2003 3:46 PM (GMT -6) | | [Doc: It boggles my mind that you think a civilian could answer this question by doing "research." We have a whole team of experts over there trying to decide whether Hussein is amassing this arsenal of biological weapons… and you think I should be "in on the know" about this. The only thing I’m confident of – which gave rise to this entire point – is how both the pro-war and anti-war side can be so utterly convinced of their positions. Because I – and YOU – and THEY DON’T KNOW JACK – certainly less than the United Nations experts doing the research. Now, given this state of affairs, I would be strongly inclined to wonder why we seem to be falling headlong into war, when the experts haven’t proven that Hussein is doing we are accusing him of. At the very least, I think that Bush needs to disclose more information than he has to date disclosed, and make his case for war better than he has to date.
Honorman: I, however, believe that most people who advocate your view simply want to remain ignorant. It is easier that way. That, of course, is a general statement and is not meant to be taken personally (I certainly wouldn't want to upset you more than you already are!)
Doc: What IS "my view"? In any case, I don’t take anything you say personally, and I’m not upset. I’m just frankly surprised by your naivete.
Blessings
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 1/5/2003 5:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Honorman: "Fyodor, I find it interesting that you pick JFK;s assasination, an issue that I have done research in, but also an issue that has no relevance to a person's life. What would it matter what position one took?"
If this were 1963 it certainly would matter how much I trusted my government. However, the point of this example is merely to show the ease with which your ideas can be disproved. The truth is not as readily available to the common researcher as you might believe...
>>>"And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth." Kahlil Gibran from THE PROPHET | | Back to Top | | |
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