quote:

---

Do you think that as christians in america we have a duty to america, ethically I mean, such as in the instance of war.

---

Welcome to this forum, pull up a seat and grab a bre... soda.

I think it's up to each person. I see no problem with people serving their country in the armed forces, I think it's admirable. However, I worked with some Mennonite (non-coloney) farmers and the son had served for two years in a state-side community service camp in order to not be inducted into the military and serve in Vietnam. They were conscientious objectors. They were real conscientious objectors, i.e. it was on religious grounds and he didn't run away to Canada. I saw no problem with that either.

I also have Christian friends who served in Vietnam. Me? I had to register but they stopped the draft a year before I turned 18. I had a low number.




Edited by - Laika on 07/24/2003 10:55:06 PM

quote:

---

Thank you for the welcome, and as a matter of fact I have a bee....coke in my hand right now:)

---

If government sanctioned violence is not permissible for wartime situations, what about local, police issues? There was quite a discussion going on about Iraq and just war and all that in another thread. I tried to find it for you and couldn't. I'm kind of lazy, though.

I think there's a difference between turning a cheek in a personal matter and your country getting attacked.

I've always thought it's hard to legislate morality. Jesus' command to us was to evangelize. I think everything else is secondary to that, political work, social work, sipping Belgian soda on the veranda. (that's a fancy word for patio)

Some people point to Ghandi as an example of what non-violent resistence can do but they seem to ignore this:

1. India was controlled by England, a country full of Christians. Was the end of English rule more from Ghandi's efforts or the efforts of Christians in England? I don't know.

2. It's been said that if India had been a coloney of France or Japan, Ghandi's head would have simply been removed from his body, end of non-violent resistence.

3. I'm not willing to try non-violent resistence if my wife and kids are ever attacked. Remember, it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

Hey good questions, are you ready for the bonus round?

quote:

---

quote:

---

Thank you for the welcome, and as a matter of fact I have a bee....coke in my hand right now:)

---

If government sanctioned violence is not permissible for wartime situations, what about local, police issues? There was quite a discussion going on about Iraq and just war and all that in another thread. I tried to find it for you and couldn't. I'm kind of lazy, though.



Well the police issue is a difficult one but I still have a problem with them causing or reacting to a situation with violence, I still think there are ways to get the job done without violence.



I think there's a difference between turning a cheek in a personal matter and your country getting attacked.


Why would it be okay to kill for a country? It doesn´t seem that a country is where our loyalties lie. Jesus called us to love no matter what and if we are to love everyone no matter who they are or what they do, it seems that killing them couldn´t be loving them, could it?


I've always thought it's hard to legislate morality. Jesus' command to us was to evangelize. I think everything else is secondary to that, political work, social work, sipping Belgian soda on the veranda. (that's a fancy word for patio)



Yeah I think it is impossible to legislate, the problem I have with it, is that it denies that you must be part of the narrative to understand what it means to follow a christian ethic.


Some people point to Ghandi as an example of what non-violent resistence can do but they seem to ignore this:

1. India was controlled by England, a country full of Christians. Was the end of English rule more from Ghandi's efforts or the efforts of Christians in England? I don't know.


Oh I don´t know about that, I mean it is a possiblity, but the English had been killing the Indians for years before that.


2. It's been said that if India had been a coloney of France or Japan, Ghandi's head would have simply been removed from his body, end of non-violent resistence.



Well again we can only speculate, maybe his nonviolence would have worked anywhere, no one else has ever tried it except for MLKjr.


3. I'm not willing to try non-violent resistence if my wife and kids are ever attacked. Remember, it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.


You need to pick up a book called ``what would you do if?`` by John Howard Yoder. It talks about that topic exactly.

Hey good questions, are you ready for the bonus round?

Oh yeah, bring it on:)

by the way could you tell me how to do the quote thing I haven´t figured it out yet

---

quote:

---

DLW
but should we be concerned with the capitalistic endevor. I know what you are saying but why would we as christians be concerned with what arms they sell or don´t sell, it seems that we should again be concerned with making the church the church, and not about fighting wars or worrying about an industry that might go under if it wern´t for wars. Maybe I am not understanding you clearly

Pragmatist

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

DLW
but should we be concerned with the capitalistic endevor. I know what you are saying but why would we as christians be concerned with what arms they sell or don´t sell, it seems that we should again be concerned with making the church the church, and not about fighting wars or worrying about an industry that might go under if it wern´t for wars. Maybe I am not understanding you clearly

Pragmatist

---

---

quote:

---

So you think that a church must have a stamp on what democracy does in america?

---

quote:

---

The Church also tends to impact Democracy because church-going types tend to be more likely to vote. As such, we have a disproportionately large influence on election outcomes.

How many economic conservatives, like Ronald Reagan, have gotten elected by being pro-life and then spent next to none of their political capital on trying to change the law on said subject?
dlw

---

quote:

---

Well I realize that we as the church might impact democracy but should we? I mean should our concern be with what america does, what if america became a dictatorship, would that change the churches job? We still have the task of making the church the church, no matter what kind of government we are under, don´t we?

---

quote:

---

I recommend you read America's God, again.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

I recommend you read America's God, again.

---

I will try to pick it up, who is the author again?

---

quote:

---

Okay I will try find it when I get back in the states, I am actually in Brazil now as a vistiting scholar at a philosophy research institute

---

quote:

---

Well I don´t know about a means to an end. I am not saying that we are to forsake politics, but I think we as the church need to focus more on the church and less on trying to make abortion illegal and the such.

---

quote:

---

I am not sure that it says we can make the gospel commensurable to all nations.

---

quote:

---

I think it better says that as we become more the church and less the world people will want to be part of our narrative. Not that our narrative become more accessible to them. It is a life changing thing to adopt a new narrative, and they must understand what that means, and this is a bit of a paradox, but the only way they can understand what that means is to become part of the narrative before they can understand. Now that means that the sinner´s prayer way to salvation does not work, it is not a one time thing but an ongoing journey.

---

quote:

---

Now I must admit I am not too keen on apologetics, I know what it is I studied with Gary Habermas for almost two years (by the way Habermas talks very highly of Boyd, and counts him as a friend) but I don´t think it helps the christian situation. The biggest problem that I have with it is that it attempts to objectivize ``facts`` and removes them from the christian narrative. I don´t think ´´facts´´ have objective meaning, I think they only make sense when placed within a story. I always tell Dr. Habermas that his resurrection studies mean nothing if he is not placing in within the christian story. For example if we did not know the story of the resurrection complete with the events leading up to it and the reasons that it occured it would simply be one of those strange anomilies (sp?) that people would go ``oh that is kind of weird, that a guy rose from the dead, but it means nothing to me`` only within the narrative of Judaism and christianity does it have any meaning whatsoever.

---

quote:

---

Now one problem with this is that we seem to simply be befriending someone in order to save them, the person has simply become a means to an end (which Kant says is wrong, I don´t agree with Kant on many things but he might have gotten this right)

---

quote:

---

I am familiar with the book you mentioned, I have not read it but have seen it many times before. Now as far as being involved in politics I again don´t necessarily think is a bad thing, but the problem comes when we attempt to force others to adhere to christisn moral standards when they are not christian and cannot understand why we have these particular laws. The justification that we as christians give are not understandable by the world.

---

quote:

---

I am in MX, s'posedly preparing for my classes this fall and doin' my research.

---

quote:

---

Agreed. Changing hearts rather than reversing Roe-V-Wade should be our goal, but that doesn't mean there aren't political actions/activisms that we can't consider taking(see lottery-ticket link).

---

quote:

---

How do you explain Jesus' last command to his disciples?

---

quote:

---

Agreed on the ongoing journey, but people still need to start on that journey.

---

quote:

---

Well I am not terribly keen on traditional classical apologetics. I prefer the model that Boyd sets out whereby he listens to his father rail about all the things he doesn't like about Christianity and what he does believe. And then he proceeds to point out that what Ed really doesn't like isn't Christianity itself, but the traditional form of it and shows its reasonableness. Now, Ed may have been different from other cases, since he came from a Christian Tradition and it was Christian Values that made him dissent from Christianity as he understood it.

---

quote:

---

They are the end. Guiding them into the position where they can take the leap of faith. I'm sorry I don't see it that way. I am not trying to earn myself a place at a higher level of heaven(the level where there is sex at ).

---

quote:

---

And sometimes that is why using political activism to make these things laws is necessary. We can't expect for them to just assent to their truths as if they were self-evident.

---

quote:

---

I'm not saying I've got everything thought out and what-not, but ultimately things get decided one way or the other and the question is whether we choose to participate actively in this process or not.

---

quote:

---

Very cool, what kind of research are you doing? The institute that I am at is an American Philosophy Study Center (I know it seems strange that I would come to Brazil to study American Philosophy)

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Agreed. Changing hearts rather than reversing Roe-V-Wade should be our goal, but that doesn't mean there aren't political actions/activisms that we can't consider taking(see lottery-ticket link).

---

Well...I agree that showing people that our story or narrative is a good one (and from our standpoints as christians the best one) is a big part in being christian but I think the biggest thing is showing love to all people no matter who they are or what they decide to do with their lives. I will say more about the political asspect below.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

How do you explain Jesus' last command to his disciples?

---

Again I think that we show the world how we love each other, and that will cause them to reply in love and desire to learn about the narrative we are part of.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Agreed on the ongoing journey, but people still need to start on that journey.

---

Well of course there is a begining but can we say that at the begining of learning what it means to be a christian that we can say those people are christian.

---

quote:

---

I understand christianity as a way of life not simply separating belief from action, which I see going on in a lot of chruches today. They say all you have to do is believe and you will be saved, but that seems to forsake living the life, if I simply just have to believe without it affecting who I am and how my life is shaped then am I acctually becoming part of god´s story? So my point after all that rambling is how can we say for sure when a person becomes a christian? I don´t think it is when they first learn of christianity and seem to like it, but it is when the life starts reflecting it, and to me that is a gradual thing.

---

quote:

---

Well I am mostly okay with apologetics like that. Again I see it as a life not simply a set of beliefs, so when you actually sit down with someone over the course of time and christian issues arise then I think it is okay to try and show why living this particular life is good, but when it comes to the archeological stuff I don´t see much use for it if someone is not already a christian.

---

quote:

---

Well that level might not be that bad

---

quote:

---

Anyway, I do have a problem of calling someone a friend and simply using that friendship to get them to go to church, or whatever happens. Now I think that if the friendship leads to the point where you can show them what christianity is about then great, but if it doesn´t at least I am content with having them as a friend. If they reject christianity I am not going to stop being their friend.

---

quote:

---

Well but I see this as the problem ultimately. Let´s say that we do get all of our christian morals to be represented by laws in the US government, so that all people of america must have these morals or go to jail let´s say.

---

quote:

---

Well, how are we as the church that follows the moral code of christianity without it being legislated, to know who is a christian and who is not? We all are living the same life now as far as we and america in general can tell. We will have succesfully taken the morals out of god´s story and made them objective laws that all people must live by, even if they are not part of the narrative in which the morals came from.

---

quote:

---

So this leads to a problem of evangelism. If we meet someone on the street, let´s say, and we ask them if they are a christian, and they say well I follow a moral code that is consistent with christianity, and you say well do you believe in jesus etc....etc...., and they say well what would change in my life if I did? We would have nothing to say because everyone is already living that moral life of christianity, by force, but still living it, and so there is no practicality in that person becoming a christian because they are already living the supposedly christian life.

---

quote:

---

Oh good lord, I know I don´t have everything right, I am on a journey and I am pretty sure that I will never figure ``it´´ out whatever ´´it´´ is.

---