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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Ethics, etc. > Bonhoeffer Chapter THREE -- finally! | Forum Quick Jump
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 9/3/2002 12:09 PM (GMT -6) |   | OK. How 'bout this one? What about "Double Effect?" That is, in cases of ethical conflict where it appears that a given action will produce two effects, one desirable and one undesirable, it may be permissable to perform the action as long as the undesirable effect is not directly intended. (Got that from a book, you know I'm not that good,  ). We do this all the time in real life situations, self-defense, giving surgery to the mother to save her life even though we know the fetus will die.
So, for an example, when we have God command young children to be slain. The effect was both undesirable and horrible, though it arose from an action that was right itself--the destruction of a society that was drowning in idolatry that it was irredeemable Deut 20:16-18. If God's people were living in trustful obedience to God, we can assume that such actions were not sinful, though the carnage that occurred resulted from the sinful condition of humanity.
While we may not endorse every aspect of "Double Effect" today, could we not at least say that something like it does seem to have divine approval?
Brandon
"Sharing a prison cell unites you much more powerfully than sharing a conference table."--Ecumenical Jihad: Ecumenism and the Culture War | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 9/9/2002 7:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph: Let's look at some things:
1) Ananias and Sapphira
2) Blinding of Simon Magus
3) God allowing "the thorn" in Paul for God's purposes
Doc: I think you meant the magician Elymus, not Simon. (Ac 13:11). Just being picky. 
I never claim that God doesn’t punish people or use afflictions for a greater good (as with Paul). But GIVEN THE MINISTRY OF JESUS, these should not be our default settings, as they tend to be in the blueprint worldview. Unless we have reason to think otherwise, I argue, we should assume the stance toward suffering that Jesus assumed: it ultimately comes from the devil. He explicitly refuted speculation about divine punishing – specifically with regard to falling towers and barbaric massacres (Lk 13).
Meph: I don't care HOW much people desired to relegate much evil directly to human or demonic wills by sheer assumption, the truth of the matter is that it is POSSIBLE that God does some, if not a LOT, of it.
Doc: You can call it "sheer assumption," but it seems to me that it pervades Jesus’ ministry and the ministry of the early Church. Ac. 10:38 Jesus went about doing good, freeing them from the Devil by healing them of their afflictions. This is my central thesis in [i[God at War, and I haven't seen it refuted yet.
Meph: Biblically, it doesn't seem to contradict God's MO. See, Doc, in times of ambiguity like this, one usually goes by PAST BEHAVIOR to assess one's potential for FUTURE BEHAVIOR. And from what I see, God has done some immeasurably cool stuff...and some very nefarious-type stuff too.
Doc: I think we have a major methodological difference, Meph. In my view, Christ is to be the beginning, middle and end of all our thinking about God. He is THE Word of God. THE image of God. THE form of God. THE exact imprint of the Father’s essence (Jn 1:1; Col. 1:15; Phil 2; Heb 1:3). [note the singulars... he's not one "word" or "image" or "imprint" among others]. HE sums up God’s purpose for creation (Col 1:15-20; Eph 1). The FULLNESS of the Godhead dwelt in him in bodily form (Col 2:9). To see him is to see the Father, to the point that we need never, and should never, ask "show us the Father" (Jn 14:7-10). He supercedes all previous revelations (Heb 1:1-3). They must be read IN THE LIGHT OF HIM. The character and purposes of God expressed on the cross, as well as the stance Jesus takes throughout his ministry, is THE CENTER.
So I do not and cannot place God’s MO in the Old Testament ALONGSIDE OF God’s MO in Christ. I subsume it UNDER God’s MO in Christ. This doesn’t relieve the problems, for sure. But it gives me a perspective to approach them from. And even if I can't solve the problems -- I can't reconcile them with Christ -- I turn TO CHRIST. I cannot let them qualify or compromise what is revealed in Christ. -- and he uniformly, unambiguously, and passionately confronted suffering as something that arose from wills OTHER THAN his Fathers. He rather revealed his Father's will by aggressively confronting it and overcoming it.
When we back off from this and speculate about the Father possibly being behind what the devil and evil people do, we are backing off from the perspective of Jesus.
Meph: Bottom line: Open View theism is on the SAME PROBLEMATIC GROUND as Calvinism essentially...just on a slightly lesser scale. Let's just accept that.
Doc: Sorry my friend, I couldn’t disagree more. There is a WORLD of difference between saying "God predestines all acts, including evil acts done by free agents, from the foundation of the world," and "God sometimes judges people IN RESPONSE to their freely chosen sin, and God USES evil (which he wishes wasn’t there in the first place) to his own advantage whenever possible." The issue is, does God WANT to loose a rook, or does he sometimes HAVE TO loose a rook (the chess analogy in the Taoist thread)?
Meph: Here's MY question for you, Doc? What's the big problem that YOU have with it? Isn't the blood of Jesus ENOUGH "love" for you? So WHAT if God uses some rapists or lightning hitting houses or Nazi guards with fetishes for beautiful young eyes? Doesn't Jesus MAKE UP for all this? You tell me.
Doc: a) given the ministry of Jesus -- together with our (or at least my) intuitions about the evil of rapes, burning houses, and plucking out little girls eyes-- I have no reason to suspect God is doing any of these things. b) There is a world of difference between acknowledging that God can punish hardened sinners and use infirmities to his advantage, on the one hand, and saying that the barbaric mutilation of a little girl might be from God.
The "big problem" I have is that it doesn’t fit the character of God revealed in Christ to rape people or pluck out eyes. Jesus just didn't do these sorts of things. And he chastised people who speculated on why God might be involved in such things. Indeed, Jesus agressively revealed God's will by coming AGAINST these sorts of things (e.g. blindness). So, unless some very persuasive suggestion can be made for not only reconciling these activities with the character of God revealed in Christ but also for thinking that in a given instance God was doing this, I simply have no reason to entertain this thought, even for a minute. Rather, precisely because of the centrality of Christ, I have every reason to believe that this is diabolical and respond to it accordingly.
Meph: I've had some really crappy stuff happen in my life, some in the specific context of ministry. Some stuff I really can't even mention. So, all this stuff affects ME too. I have to be willing to say that God possibly willed for some very ILL #@&$ to happen to me...and that's doesn't necessarily feel good. So PLEASE understand that I'm in the same boat with this as everyone else.
Doc: Gotcha Meph. But why isn’t it enough to say that God is working with you to USE the evil of agents to your advantage (Rom 8:28)? Whatever loving purpose God has in the %^$#@, you get by granting that God’s purpose follows from the %^$#@. You gain nothing but unsolvable problems by speculating that perhaps God’s purpose has to lead to the %^$#@.
BJS: What I mean is this: It doesn't seem that we can ever know FOR SURE whether an evil action/occurrence is God-ordained or not. So I don't think we can say that Sept. 11th, the Holocaust, etc., were DEFINITELY not purposed by God for some mysterious "greater good."
Doc: Look, we know why the terrorist attack occurred. The terrorists have told us. What purpose does over-explaining it by appealing to God’s mysterious will except to introduce a thought that is in opposition with the entire ministry of Jesus?
BJS: In essence, I don’t think we can ever say DEFINITIVELY that God can’t be behind something like Sept. 11, Holocaust, Zosia, etc. What we CAN say is that God never wanted any of it to happen. In THAT sense, he is not "behind" bad stuff.
Doc: Okay, give THIS qualification of "behind," we are closer together. Recall the chess match analogy in the Taoism thread. We know nothing about the rules of chess. We enter the game on the 14th move, knowing of what led to it, and little of what the infinitely intelligent chessmaster (God) saw could lead from it. We only see that he lost his rook on that move.
MY MAIN CONCERN is to preserve intact, without qualification, the truth that GOD HATED LOOSING THE ROOK. I want to resist any suggestion that somehow God is actually playing HIMSELF, controlling his opponent, so that loosing the rook was actually his original plan and was in fact a good thing. Somehow God is more glorious for looking like he lost a piece...
In a sense, given the rules of chess (the metaphysical requirements for the kind of creation God is aiming at), and given the moves his opponent (all free agents) have made up to this point, God "willed" loosing the rook. In this sense he was ‘behind" the rook loss. But he was so only because he couldn’t save it without greater losses, or abandoning the chess game altogether.
He cried over Zosia’s eyes being plucked out. He was "behind it" in the sense that he created and sustains this world, with its necessary rules. And perhaps he was "behind it" in the sense that, given these rules, it couldn’t be avoided without greater loss. But – and here I stake my ground – he was not behind it in the sense that it made him happy, made the creation a better place, fulfilled his ideal will, etc… If the revelation of God in Christ means anything, it has to mean this.
And THIS, Meph, is what puts this perspective miles apart from Calvinism.
Gotta run,
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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Mephi2K
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Total Posts : 713
| Posted 9/9/2002 8:49 AM (GMT -6) | | The Lines are Drawn(?)
I suppose that we are just going to differ seriously on this one, Doc. Hmmm...
This is my PRIMARY position that I want people to understand:
I believe that, given the presuppositions of the open view, it is fruitless and PRESUMPTIVE to assume that any particular given event that involves death, destruction, chaos, and mayhem can ONLY be the Devil or free-willed beings or plain ol' bad luck chance. It CAN be God! YES, it can be demonic or human evil. I never said that it couldn't. But we cannot rightfully PRECLUDE that God was somehow integrally involved on general principle. And as far as God being IN the mix, we can say that "it didn't make God happy" til the cows come home. We can say that God did it because of a "greater good" til we are blue in the face. We can say that "necessity" made it occur. The fact remains the same. It is utter foolishness to presume that God COULD NOT be behind some significant "evil" things that we see in the world for MYSTERIOUS reasons that we don't know.
I truly believe that nothing that you have said can change this, Doc. As much as you want to place Jesus' ministry at the forefront, you still cannot, FOR ME, give an acceptable reason to assume that God WAS DEFINITELY NOT involved in Sept. 11th. Any more than Jerry Falwell can convince me that it was DEFINITELY divine judgment. If you choose to believe that God isn't behind any of it (or a miniscule amount), then so be it. That's on you. Do yer thing. I can't go with that. Not with my view of Christ. Not with my understanding of biblical testimony. Not with my personal experience with God. Not with my understanding of the "grey areas" that exist in reality. And that's where I stake MY ground.
Do we not see that some people won't even CONSIDER (CONSIDER, mind you) that God could be behind some bad stuff. That divine judgment or "greater good" ends can produce some mad death and destruction?? Didn't you get this idea from that PBS special? Wasn't it made abundantly clear?? For some people to even THINK that God MAY have been somewhat behind this was unbearable. Bottom line: they basically say that they cannot worship such a a God. Talk about limiting the options!
I choose to live with the big "I DON'T FRIGGIN KNOW" ambiguity of the ULTIMATE ORIGINS of the situation, and combat the evil JUST BECAUSE IT EXISTS. This is why I lauded the whole perspective of Jesus about the falling pillar. Who CARES why it happened? REPENT and TURN TO GOD. I don't give a rip if it's a test from God. I don't give a flip if it's some character building exercise from God. I don't give a care if it's the product of some human beings' evil intentions or ignorance. And I sure don't give a damn if it's Satan and some demons, making some anti-God devastation. My reaction is going to be the same: 1)checking myself 2)turning to God in Christ 3)leaning on the Spirit to respond, in a life-affirming way. That's it and that's all. If God's purpose has lead me TO the *#&#, then guess what? Same reaction! I don't need to know that the devil is ultimately behind some evil to try and deal with it in faith. What I see of Christ is how to RESPOND to situations, REGARDLESS of their origin. He dealt with human avarice and greed. He dealt with demonic oppression and possession. He dealt with the EXISTENTIAL PAIN of following God's will to the cross. ALL of these things, Christ did in faith. And I don't have to know squat to do this.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this be sensible for Calvinists, Arminians, AND open theists?? I sure think so.
So, it's cool. Great minds don't always think alike. But whoever said that there were supposed to? I look at open view theism and still see mad problems. You look at it and see mad solutions. Fine. I suppose as long as we are both following God, trusting in Christ, that it really doesn't matter. We'll still both be trying to love people and promote life-affirming paradigms as colaborers with God.
So...I agree to disagree. What do you say? 
Sweet stuff,
Edited by - Mephi2K on 09/09/2002 9:33:25 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
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Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 9/9/2002 11:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi, how do you think God feels when people suffer? Specifically, do you think there are times when God delights in the suffering of a person?
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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Mephi2K
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Total Posts : 713
| Posted 9/9/2002 4:18 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Mephi, how do you think God feels when people suffer? Specifically, do you think there are times when God delights in the suffering of a person?
1) God loves, cares, and has empathy.
2) Just like God didn't at all like the pure FACT of Jesus' "necessary" suffering, but did enjoy the "greater good" that emerged from it, it's the same for other situations.
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Terry_Baxter
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| Posted 9/9/2002 7:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Meph
You're right on this one. Dead right. Hang in there bro.
Given time, I'll do more than make bald assertions, too.
quote:
Not with my view of Christ. Not with my understanding of biblical testimony. Not with my personal experience with God. Not with my understanding of the "grey areas" that exist in reality. And that's where I stake MY ground.
Amen.
But I do think it's worth defending the point in more detail. It may come down to the old "incommensurability of ideas" since you and Boyd are almost arguing at the level of presuppositions.
I'd like to historicize the presuppositions a bit to see if you and Doc can move the argument out of that quandry.
Terry
"Be God's"
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 9/16/2002 2:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Notice: This debate has morphed over into the Reflections on Sept 11 thread in the Board Questions category. The next instalment of Bonhoeffer's Ethics will be out within a week.
Blessings
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
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Total Posts : 636
| Posted 9/16/2002 3:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Meph: I choose to live with the big "I DON'T FRIGGIN KNOW" ambiguity of the ULTIMATE ORIGINS of the situation, and combat the evil JUST BECAUSE IT EXISTS. This is why I lauded the whole perspective of Jesus about the falling pillar. Who CARES why it happened? REPENT and TURN TO GOD. I don't give a rip if it's a test from God. I don't give a flip if it's some character building exercise from God. I don't give a care if it's the product of some human beings' evil intentions or ignorance. And I sure don't give a damn if it's Satan and some demons, making some anti-God devastation. My reaction is going to be the same: 1)checking myself 2)turning to God in Christ 3)leaning on the Spirit to respond, in a life-affirming way.
2) Just like God didn't at all like the pure FACT of Jesus' "necessary" suffering, but did enjoy the "greater good" that emerged from it, it's the same for other situations.
Springs: I agree that we should combat evil just because it exists, in a life affirming way. But I don’t think that means doing evil to prevent a larger evil. Did God make men sacrifice his son? Was any part of what Jesus did, in response to the evil against him, evil?
-S
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Springs
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Total Posts : 636
| Posted 10/29/2003 12:01 PM (GMT -6) | | On the use of this forum:
quote:
Originally posted by adiaphora
I would like to move these threads on chapters from Bonheoffer’s Ethics into their own section on this board. This would consolidate the discussion and make it easier to archive whenever (if ever?) we get tired of talking about Bonhoeffer. Unless anyone objects in the next 48 hours, I will make this move on Saturday. adiaphora
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