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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 7/13/2002 8:36 AM (GMT -6) |   | Romans 8:18-21
I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory about to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God; for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
This is a very interesting passage. My take:
God subjected the creation to futility. Which to me means he mercifully allows us to live between the curse and the promise – “he will strike your heel and you will strike his head”. Which to me means the jumping back and forth between knowing good and evil for ourselves and knowing only Christ and Him crucified. “In the hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”
“the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God”
The creation requires (this is why it waits with eager longing) the children of God (those who choose to allow Christ to transform them) in order to be set free from the law of death which means that it will obtain the freedom (the new life) of the glory of the children of God.
Why does the one who subjects the creation to futility only HOPE (rather than know) that the creation will be set free from its bondage to decay? Does it only depend on the “revealing” of the children of God? Does “revealing” really mean the “making” of the children of God? In which case it is possible that none will choose? Or does it mean that we may choose (and therefore be eternally saved) but not actually learn how to love well enough – not gain enough “glory” – in order to really set “the creation” (this world) free from its bondage to decay? Or does it require that enough people choose Christ AND enough people learn how to Love enough in order to set this world free from the law of death? In which case, it may never happen that this creation is ever set free?
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 7/14/2002 8:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Icon: God subjected the creation to futility. Which to me means he mercifully allows us to live between the curse and the promise – “he will strike your heel and you will strike his head”.
Doc: He certainly allows us to live between the curse and the promise, but I don't see how subjecting to futility MEANS this Icon. I think this part of the verse just refers to the curse. And the curse, as I read it, is primarily about allowing Satan to be "the god of the world" (2 Cor 4:4) -- which is what we empowered him to be according to the New Testament's interpretation of the Genesis 3 story. He was GIVEN all the kingdoms of this word (Lk 4:6?) and now we see something of what his diabolic reign of terror looks like.
Icon: Which to me means the jumping back and forth between knowing good and evil for ourselves and knowing only Christ and Him crucified. “In the hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”
Doc: I agree with your conclusion, but again don't think it can be derived from Paul's concept of the creation being subjected to futility. In my mind, this is God's REDEMPTIVE activity IN THE MIDST of the futility. Also, I wonder about the "jumping back and forth." Is it possible to "break through" and get entirely free from the knowledge of good and evil? I wonder about this only because I have moments when I EXPERIENCE total freedom, and thus total love. I've just been unable to remain in this place. I wonder if this vacillation is inevitable. I hope you're wrong. Either way, I shall strive like you are wrong.
Icon: The creation requires (this is why it waits with eager longing) the children of God (those who choose to allow Christ to transform them) in order to be set free from the law of death which means that it will obtain the freedom (the new life) of the glory of the children of God.
Doc: Amen.
Icon: Why does the one who subjects the creation to futility only HOPE (rather than know) that the creation will be set free from its bondage to decay?
Doc: When we speak of "hope" we usually imply that something may or may not come to pass. I don't think Paul meant the word this way, however. In every other context in which he speaks of the Christian's hope, it is about more along the line of "certain anticipation." He celebrates our hope of glory, for example. Yet it seems clear to me that he's not thereby suggesting that it might not come to pass.
Icon: Does it only depend on the “revealing” of the children of God?
Doc: I don't know if "depends" is the right word. But the revealing of the children of God will mark the transition for the creation. The acquiring of a "bride" for Christ was the central purpose of creation (so far as its revealed to us), so the revealing of this bride is the sign of that the entire creation is being liberated. But it doesn't "depend" on it, I don't think, in a causal sense.
Icon: Does “revealing” really mean the “making” of the children of God?
Doc: Why think this?
Icon: In which case it is possible that none will choose?
Doc: Why think this? See my above comments on hope/
Icon: Or does it mean that we may choose (and therefore be eternally saved) but not actually learn how to love well enough – not gain enough “glory” – in order to really set “the creation” (this world) free from its bondage to decay?
Doc: I'm afraid I'm not sure of the question. If you're suggesting the possibility that God's children may not be "revealed" (choose to love) and hence this creation may remain in its futility, I'd say no. As I read it, the whole passage is premised on Paul's conviction that the whole creation WILL be transformed. THIS is why the sufferings of this present age can't be compared to the glory we shall live in.
Icon: Or does it require that enough people choose Christ AND enough people learn how to Love enough in order to set this world free from the law of death? In which case, it may never happen that this creation is ever set free?
Doc: I again don't see this Icon. In my reading, Paul teaches that it IS CERTAIN -- it is predestined -- that all who believe shall be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. However long it takes, by whatever means, it WILL happen. Who we truly are in Christ WILL be revealed. And creation WILL be set free.
Just my thoughts. Thanks for the probing questions.
in his grip
Doc
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/15/2002 1:30 AM (GMT -6) | | I think these verses are wonderfully full of promise for what will be, and extend such encouragement to believers who feel such apparent helplessness before today’s relentless tide of adversity and unloving. If it is OK, I would like to offer some thoughts on these verses?
FOr me, these verses add to the powerful linking between suffering and glory. The inseparability of our present sufferings in this age from the glory to come in the next age is confirmed thoughout these verses, and in those that follow (verses 23-27). These two themes of suffering and eventual glory seem to be welded together, end to end, in their inevitability. However, although they are unavoidably married in that suffering must precede the glory, Paul assures us that they are by no means comparable with each other in their enormity. Paul also reassures us of the difference in relative values in the following verse:
“For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;“ 2 Co 4:17
There is a strong comparison with the prior sufferings of Jesus before His glory and, indeed, we can surely look to God’s own ongoing sufferings as we continue in our sinning and desecration of His creation - His suffering, which only ends once He finally calls it a day and can then share the rest of eternity with His chosen people. I do not think we should be surprised that our own forthcoming period of glory is also preceded by a short time of suffering. After all, it was mankind that fell in the first place. We are also reminded of this initial suffering in 1 Pet 5:10:
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
It is curious the way Paul also extends the suffering and groaning to the whole “creation”. We can wonder what Paul actually means by the “creation” since Paul seems to personify it, but it seems most likely that it refers (primarily) to the earth with all its animate and inanimate contents, but excluding man himself. There are other examples of the personification of nature, as in:
“Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof. Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice” Psa 96:11,12
“Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together” Psa 98:7,8
We know that nature shared in God’s curse (Gen 3:17) as much as did humankind itself. Both are subjected to the futility, or frustration, of mortality and the endless cycle of conception, birth and growth followed by decline, death and decomposition. It represents an age that is futile, meaningless, empty of purpose, and transitory. But the creation also suffers from the direct hand of mortal man, whose negative impact on the environment is well known. Paul confirms that the creation WILL also share in the consequent glory that will inevitably come, but only once humankind has also reached it. So the creation wait for the revelation of the children of God, and the receipt of their inheritance by the heirs:
“Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.” Gal 4:7
For once the children of God are established, then, too, the whole creation is freed from its own burden of suffering.
Then we come to the word “hope”, which is the very fulcrum of this passage, the point where we swing from the past, through the present, and on to the future promise. Hope in this sense, I think, is not intended by Paul to express any uncertainty, but to indicate something promised but not yet consummated - as in our hope of salvation:
“For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.” Rom 8:24,25
also as in Hebrews:
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Heb 11:1
In some accounts, the groaning of the creation is compared with the pains of childbirth, suggesting the fact that they are not meaningless, but are the unavoidable forerunner to the birth into glory.
Jesus uses the same analogy:
“A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. Joh 16:21,22
(Compare with)
“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.” Isa 65:17
Since these current groanings, experienced by both ourselves and the whole creatin, are birth pains, they must lead to a birth, i.e. the commencement of the coming new order. Not only that, but that these pains of labour will also be replaced by the joys of birth and a new life.
The same groaning experienced by the creation also exists within the followers of Christ. Paul describes this in later verses as being due to the tension between life here in the spirit and what will be finally consummated. Just the very presence of the spirit within us is a reminder of the current incompleteness of our salvation whilst we share with the rest of creation its bondage to decay and pain. Note also:
“For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.” 2Co 5:2-4
When Paul talks about the creation being liberated from bondage to decay, it indicates a transformation from the present physical condition, which is slave to the laws of science and subject to the general running down of the universe. In the end it will be freed from these characteristics of a mortal condition. Is it not interesting how Jesus’ own transformation before Peter, James and John gives some clue towards the nature of transformation into something immortal, incorruptible, and without degradation?
There is also a tantalising inference that the earth is not actually to be destroyed, but to be purified and transformed. There are also other references to a renewing and rebuilding rather than destruction and replacement:
“And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God. Amo 9:14,15
Note here in particular the reference to waste cities, i.e. pre-existing but deserted, and land that has been given and not will be given.
“Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:” Psa 102:25,26
“The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.” Isa 11:6
“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Mat 19:28
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Act 3:19-21
In summary, I would say these verses confirm:
- the worthlessness and pain of the current mortal state of both humankind and the universe,
- that this state has not come by accident, but through the deliberate act of our Creator,
- that this state is temporary;
- that the realisation of the actual birth into glory is dependent on the consummation of the salvation of God’s children, which presently is but a promise;
- and that the earth as we know it may well undergo purification and rebuilding rather than destruction.
These are just my own thoughts (and hopes) on these verses.
Markus
Edited by - markus on 07/15/2002 06:35:11 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 7/15/2002 8:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Doc
Icon: Why does the one who subjects the creation to futility only HOPE (rather than know) that the creation will be set free from its bondage to decay?
Doc: When we speak of "hope" we usually imply that something may or may not come to pass. I don't think Paul meant the word this way, however. In every other context in which he speaks of the Christian's hope, it is about more along the line of "certain anticipation." He celebrates our hope of glory, for example. Yet it seems clear to me that he's not thereby suggesting that it might not come to pass.
Iconoclast
Hmmm…Well, that changes everything. (in the voice of Roseanne Roseanna Dana) Never mind.
markus
There is also a tantalising inference that the earth is not actually to be destroyed, but to be purified and transformed. There are also other references to a renewing and rebuilding rather than destruction and replacement:
Iconoclast
Wow, nice post markus I really appreciate that (as opposed to Doc ripping me up one side and down the other  ). I really see now that the word “hope” was meant quite differently than I was reading it. And it is quite the encouraging passage – thanks for the associations into all those other passages.
There were really two parts of this passage that intrigued me. One was the idea that it seems to pretty clearly state that God subjected the creation to “futility”. AND the “tantalising inference” (I like that phrase) to the earth (“the creation”) not actually being destroyed. Thanks for the other references.
Doc
He certainly allows us to live between the curse and the promise, but I don't see how subjecting to futility MEANS this Icon. I think this part of the verse just refers to the curse. And the curse, as I read it, is primarily about allowing Satan to be "the god of the world" (2 Cor 4:4) -- which is what we empowered him to be according to the New Testament's interpretation of the Genesis 3 story. He was GIVEN all the kingdoms of this word (Lk 4:6?) and now we see something of what his diabolic reign of terror looks like.
Iconoclast
The word “futility” reminded me of Sisyphus who constantly has to roll the stone up the hill only to have it roll back down again. God subjecting the creation to futility means to me that when we fell He did not let us fall forever. He did not let the fall accelerate infinitely. He did not allow the creation to be completely destroyed. He also did not immediately restore the creation. He instituted the curse and the promise. “He shall strike your heel and you shall strike his head.” Each day we must win anew the Will of God in our lives.
This is analogous to the psychological needs “driver” that each of us has. Each day we must meet the demands of our psychological needs to prevent “distress” behavior. Each day our “stroke” bucket must be filled for us to be able to overflow with love towards others.
Doc
Also, I wonder about the "jumping back and forth." Is it possible to "break through" and get entirely free from the knowledge of good and evil? I wonder about this only because I have moments when I EXPERIENCE total freedom, and thus total love. I've just been unable to remain in this place. I wonder if this vacillation is inevitable. I hope you're wrong. Either way, I shall strive like you are wrong.
Iconoclast
I absolutely believe it is possible to “break through” and get entirely free from the knowledge of good and evil – but I think that it is only for a time - that it must be won each day anew.
When we experience this total freedom and thus total love, I think, in that moment, we are entirely free from the knowledge of good and evil. But I don’t believe that our bodies and the world they inhabit were designed to support us in this place. The god of this world just isn’t into that sort of thing. Thus, we must every day win it anew. But surely there must be some good in this. Surely it is great training and perhaps character building. Yeah, that’s it, character building, we could all use more of that. What’s a little pain in exchange for some character, some fortitude?
On the other hand. Doesn’t it say that Enoch walked with God and then he was no more for God took him? Maybe he just got so good at the spiritual disciplines that he was doing them in his sleep - totally communing with God before he even woke up each day.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 7/17/2002 5:07 AM (GMT -6) | | ain't a dang thing Markus or Icon said in the last two posts with which i can disagree. A brilliant meeting of minds I must say.
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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