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Originally posted by spenlake



Jo-Ann

You say, "I don't believe that our place is to judge though. That is where I have difficulty, where believers "set themselves up" as judges, and where I see believers and non-believers hurt."

You are right that we are not to set ourselves over others to judge them. We are, however, commanded to judge actions of the brethren with in the church when these actions are contrary to the Law of God. The "enforcement" authority that we are given, however, is not eternal punishment or physical beatings or burning - only expulsion. The Word of God is the authority and God remains the ultimate judge.

We are also commanded to judge the teachings of people claiming to teach for God. I don't have time now to address this, but this also only carries the same enforcement as the above - expulsion.

1 Co 5, "I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES."

1 Co 6, "Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life? So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren, but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?

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Originally posted by spenlake

Jo-Ann,

I understand your feelings concerning "harsh" words and I have been guilty of speaking them and somehow believing that I was higher than another. Of course this isn't true and, if I know the truth at all it is only because God revealed it to me - no place to boast or put on airs. The pain that you speak of that you have seen in opposing someone's teaching is also very present in those that sit under defective teaching.

I have been asked several times for personal anecdotes. I will share one that just "ended." Last year a friend of mine was diagnosed with melanoma. He was given a few months to live. The church that he attends is extremely entusiastic regarding anything of the "spirit" and "prophetic." They have apostles and prophets and have many spiritual experiences. This church was founded by my father-in-law in defense and pursuit of the things of the spirit. I was a member for 20+ years and deeply believed agreed with their understanding of Christianity. I left this church but still maintained some friendships there. These were NOT malicious or greedy people, they were nice men with a zeal for God and His power - they just had defective beliefs.

My dying friend called me and spoke to me about his cancer and asked what to do. He said that an elder had contacted him and invited him to come up for prayer on Sunday. I replied that, based on James, this was both scriptural and a God-given means that we are to pursue healing. "Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him." It is interesting to notice that the sick man's sins will be forgiven.

This man went forward on Sunday to a group of elders and their "apostle." When they gathered around him, an elder (who claims to have a healing ministry) said, "I see unforgiveness." Others said, "I see it too." This was a revelation of the spirit. Instead of prayer by the elders for his cancer, my dying friend was accused by an elder in front of the congregation, the elders never even anointed him with oil as James tells us to. Ultimately there was a man in the congregation that prayed for my friend for healing as he went back to his seat. This was not enough, however. This same elder called my friend the next week and asked him if he had made up the list of the people that he hadn't forgiven yet, because God wouldn't heal him until he had forgiven everybody." My friend knew of no "unforgiveness" inside him. Notice that instead of his sins being forgiven as promised in James, my dying friend was accused of sin and told that his actions were preventing his healing.

I attempted to call this elder. He has eaten at my home several times and is a not a malicious man. He was my friend. He sincerely believed that this was the word of God. He refused to discuss the matter. I called the "apostle," who has also eaten at my home and was my friend. This man is kind, generous and would willing give his life for what he believes. However, nothing was done publicly to rectify this. Finally I wrote a letter to the congregation myself, because in Matt 18 there is a final recourse to bring it to the church.

Sadly, no apology was made. This was not the only time that this elder in question had had "revelations" of this sort. I have copies of other "prophecies" that he has given claiming to speak for God. My friend and his family were very wounded by their church and "friends" in addition to dealing with dying amnd losing an income. Gratefully they found the strength left that church and found refuge in Constance Evangelical Free Church where the authority of scripture was honored. He died last month and I and my family attended his funeral.

I am grateful that God allowed me to publicly oppose and stand against such abusive behavior and beliefs and support this friend. These actions were carried out and tolerated by kind old men and those who have a zeal and sincere desire for God. They were still wrong and all their motives do not make such actions tolerable. What pain goes on in a man and his family, (wife and daughter of 10) when their dying husband and father is prophetically rebuked in front of the congregation and then later told that unless they forgive (when they believe they have) they will die?

If there is a choice in who must feel pain it is clear in scriptures that those who teach will be judged more severely. Let them take responsibiltity for their teachings (and feel pain if they must) and may the sheep be kept protected and safe from men falsely claiming to speak for God. (Please understand that this sad story has nothing to do with Dr. Boyd. I don't say this in any way against Dr. Boyd. He has demonstrated himself to be a noble man and has no part in what I just related. In fact, Dr, Boyd has been a shining example of graciousness in the face of criticism and I applaud him for this.)

In any case, please don't forget the pain of the sheep that are held captive to defective teaching and beliefs.

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