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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/8/2004 12:25 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Red Airplane
Excellent!
Here's some other reasons, as well:
Joy
Hebrews 12:2 "fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."
Love
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Salvation
John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."
oops
I agree with you Red Airplane. Jesus did come because the Father sent Him and desired that the world would be saved through Him. God's love for us is found in His giving His Son to die in our behalf. This love was already manifested and objectively demonstrated by a man with a real body. This man, who was also God, died for us and was raised. We find and experience the Father's love in acknowledging and believing what He did on the Cross once and for all. The Father's love is not to be sought in mystical impressions or imaginations but in the factual record of God's actions demonstrated in Jesus.
I think that Jesus experienced joy in obeying His Father unto death, certain that He would be raised again as the "forever" high priest offering blood that would forever be an acceptable offering for our sins - His own. Ultimately, however, He came to die and the joy that came after accomplishing this is the byproduct.
Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Those who continue on in their sins, these will be judged and eternally experience the lake of fire along with the ruler of this world. For all that is of the world; the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the boastful pride of life is not from the Father but is from the world. Anyone who loves these things, the love of the Father is not in him.
Spen Lake
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Tom
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| Posted 9/8/2004 3:39 PM (GMT -6) | | Spenlake: Those who continue on in their sins, these will be judged and eternally experience the lake of fire along with the ruler of this world.
Tom: I'm trying to figure out what the original point of your starting this thread is, Spen. The reference to God's love "not being sought in mystical impressions or imaginations" recalls your crusade against Greg's writings. So I'm just wondering whehter he is still the object here. Is Greg continuing on in his sins, saying he sees though he is blind?
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/8/2004 4:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
Spenlake: Those who continue on in their sins, these will be judged and eternally experience the lake of fire along with the ruler of this world.
Tom: I'm trying to figure out what the original point of your starting this thread is, Spen. The reference to God's love "not being sought in mystical impressions or imaginations" recalls your crusade against Greg's writings. So I'm just wondering whehter he is still the object here. Is Greg continuing on in his sins, saying he sees though he is blind?
Tom
I hadn't realy thought of it that way. I think that the reason that I started it is that, in reading many of the other threads, the gospel and the love of God seems to have lost its value. If we lose our understanding of the Law and its imperious demands - perfection - at the threat of eternal death, then we lose our perspective on the love of God and its manifestation to us in the gospel. Jesus came to deal with "sin", not as a master psychiatrist with new counseling techniques. He had only one message, the gospel for the forgiveness of sins. We struggle against sin, not poor self images and "wounded memories." My sins and the ongoing battle against a sinful nature that attempts to assert itself in the face of God's nature that He has given me is the battle I face. I am saddened at the "answers" that I see offered and the lack of the gospel as our hope.
I think that this is because the Law has been minimized and therefore the gospel has been cheapened. Is that an attack on Dr. Boyd and his mysticism, maybe, but it wasn't a conscious one.
Spen Lake
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 9/9/2004 1:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
[quote] ...I am saddened at the "answers" that I see offered and the lack of the gospel as our hope.
I think that this is because the Law has been minimized and therefore the gospel has been cheapened.
spen,
I hardly think that the royal Law of love (required as payment of an infinite debt) can be called cheap...or referred to as cheapening the gospel.
To be honest, I am saddened by your reliance on the Law. That kind of thinking seems to cheapen the gospel (good news).
peace and love,
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/9/2004 1:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
[quote] ...I am saddened at the "answers" that I see offered and the lack of the gospel as our hope.
I think that this is because the Law has been minimized and therefore the gospel has been cheapened.
spen,
I hardly think that the royal Law of love (required as payment of an infinite debt) can be called cheap...or referred to as cheapening the gospel.
To be honest, I am saddened by your reliance on the Law. That kind of thinking seems to cheapen the gospel (good news).
peace and love,
selah
Without an understanding of the Law we have no understanding of the infinite debt. There is no part of the 10 commandments that is inconsistent with the "Royal Law" that you mention. The ceremonial law was fulfilled and abrogated as we see in Hebrews, however, the 10 commandments still remain in force. The Royal Law is nothing more than the 10 commandments, and the 10 commandments do nothing more than explain the Royal Law. If anything, the Roayal Law is stricter because even in doing a good action, if it isn't done from a heart of love internally, I still break the Royal Law and deserve damnation.
Your reliance on the Royal Law and your failure to continually and perfectly meet it should make the gospel valuable. Without the gospel and the righteousness of One who kept the Royal Law in your behalf and gives you His righteousness as a gift, you would be damned on the basis of the Royal Law. The Royal Law damns you worse than the Law of Moses because it reaches to the heart itself - it is more stringent. As we believe in the righteousness that He gave us and its efficacy, we begin to keep the Royal Law because the seed He planted in us and confirmed with His Spirit, this seed grows and actions according to the Royal Law are the byproduct.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/9/2004 4:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Red Airplane
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Without an understanding of the Law we have no understanding of the infinite debt. There is no part of the 10 commandments that is inconsistent with the "Royal Law" that you mention. The ceremonial law was fulfilled and abrogated as we see in Hebrews, however, the 10 commandments still remain in force.
Which of the 10 commandments condemn us for being led by the Spirit?
Romans 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
I never claimed there was a commandment against being led by the Spirit of God. There are commands, however, against being led by spirits as well as commands about seeking spiritual experiences outside of specific means that God has delineated.
Deut 18
“There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. “For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you. “You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. “For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do so.
1 John 4
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/9/2004 5:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
OKay, good.
Here's to being led by the Spirit....
"It will be in the last days, says God, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh. Your sons and your daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions. Your old men will dream dreams." Acts 2:17
prophecy, visions, dreams, all Spirit given
Deut 13
"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. “You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. “But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.
Jer 23
“I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy falsely in My name, saying, ‘I had a dream, I had a dream!’ “How long? Is there anything in the hearts of the prophets who prophesy falsehood, even these prophets of the deception of their own heart, who intend to make My people forget My name by their dreams which they relate to one another, just as their fathers forgot My name because of Baal? “The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?” declares the LORD. “Is not My word like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock? “Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who steal My words from each other. “Behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who use their tongues and declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ “Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams,” declares the LORD, “and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit,” declares the LORD.
Jer 29
“For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, ‘Do not let your prophets who are in your midst and your diviners deceive you, and do not listen to the dreams which they dream. ‘For they prophesy falsely to you in My name; I have not sent them,’ declares the LORD.
1 Co 14
If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
Spen Lake
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Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 9/9/2004 10:16 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I am saddened at the "answers" that I see offered and the lack of the gospel as our hope.... Is that an attack on Dr. Boyd and his mysticism, maybe, but it wasn't a conscious one.
If by "mysticism" you mean "imaginative prayer", then you can't say that the mysticism replaces the gospel as our hope. What is the gospel anyway? That God loves us, we make a mess, and God cleans it up? Well, every example of Doc's "mysticism" that I have heard of communicates the gospel. The gospel is the message. "Mysticism", written word, preaching, song, visual art, and physical act are simply media. All media can be used to destort the meaning, but I haven't seen Doc (or those who place love above judgement) do this.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/10/2004 1:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Sahid says "What is the gospel anyway? That God loves us, we make a mess, and God cleans it up?"
The problem with mysticism is evident in your definition. By this definition I can think of many religions that would have the "gospel." Islam, Hinduism, many of the New Age cults like Eck, the mystery cults in the near East like Zoroasterism, Jehovah's witness, Mormonism..... The gospel is not the message that God loves us, we sin and God cleans it up. The Gospel revolves primarily around "how" He cleans it up. The concept geos back to our earliest ancestors. Cain tried to answer this "how" one way and Able answered in another. Cain's sacrifice was rejected. He was not reconciled to God. Before the advent of Christ there was one legitimate temple and one legitimate High Priest that offered a sacrifice that was acceptable to God. All other temples and sacrifices were ineffective.
Now, as we learn in Hebrews, there is only one High Priest who offers only one offering that is effective. This High Priest is God who became man and died, but now lives to offer His blood, that through this blood we can be reconciled to God. This can fit into your definition of the gospel but so can all the others. Your definition is defective in that it is too broad. Your definition is NOT what is preached in every sermon in Acts. This is also what is lacking in mysticism where we enter another state of consciousness to experience a spiritual Jesus instead of simply believing in the historical man and the historical record of His work and its effectiveness.
Your definition is deffective in that the "means" that God has commanded and defined are left vague. If I were a Mormon I could find false comfort and false security in your definition and still be damned because I believed in a defective Christ. This is exactly the problem and highlights my concerns regarding obscuring the gospel.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/10/2004 11:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
But your definition is too narrow in that it excludes the possibility that God will speak through mystic means. I significant portion of the Bible must be edited out if we say that mystic experiences or altered states of consciousness are not used by God to communicate.
I acknowledge that God (and spirits) can speak to humans subjectively through spritual experiences, inner impressions, dreams, visions, appearances of angels, voices from the sky... I consider these subjective, not mystical. I would define misticism as something else. I believe that mysticism involves pursuing spiritual experiences through techniques. There is no commandment telling us to seek God in dreams or to practice certain technique to enter into a trance. God can and has used these things to communicate to men but this was at His prerogative, not man's.
I believe that Mysticism is the seeking of spiritual experiences as a way to "draw near to" or "experience" God. I do not belive that this is scriptural. Mysticism is initiated by man, not God, with the goal of spiritual experiences because we desire them. I believe that God has enumerated the legitimate ways to seek Him that are acceptable to Him. I believe that any technique or way to seek God, and especially to "experience" Him, that is not explicitly stipulated in the Word falls outside of God's prescribed means and leads to error, no matter how good it feels.
I am not condemning "spiritual experieces" at all. What I am condemning is teaching techniques or practices that claim to lead one to spiritual experiences with God. I do believe these techniques lead to spiritual experiences, but with spirits. As we continue to pursue God through the study of His word, pray to God with our minds and understanding (believing that we are led by the spirit), fellowship with other Christians around the gospel - God may give us spiritual experiences. If I introduce eastern meditation and techniques and call it prayer or introduce Yoga and call it fellowship, or psychology and call it the gospel - I have a corrupted them God-given "means" and instead have a defective "means" of coming to God.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 9/10/2004 3:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Sin is the problem and sin "remaining" in those becoming blind ends in eternal death.
Spen,
What passage is this taken from? I'd like to look at it as well.
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
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| Posted 9/10/2004 4:24 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 9/10/2004 9:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Sin is the problem and sin "remaining" in those becoming blind ends in eternal death.
Hi,
I do not see the 'mission of Christ" as judgement. I see it as coming to redeem, to restore, to give abundant life, to transform life. He said this in John "coincidentally" so that the pharisees would overhear Him. He was reaching out to them as well, but they could not "see" what He was saying. They were spiritually blinded because they were so full of judgment, not full of love.
"Jesus then said, "I came into the world to bring everything into the clear light of day, making all the distinctions clear, so that those who have never seen will see, and those who have made a great pretense of seeing (the pharisees) will be exposed as blind."
Some pharisees overheard him and said, "Does tht mean you're calling us blind?"
Jesus said, "if you were really blind, you would be blameless, but since you claim to see everything so well, you're accountable for every fault and failure."
We need to be cautious about claiming to see everything "so well". The law was given so that we would understand what sin is, but it made no one righteous. It wasn't enough. It took grace to save us. We are saved because we are IN HIM, and He is righteous.
"Now God has us where He wants us, with all the time in this world and the next to shower grace and kindness upon us in Christ Jesus. Saving is all his idea, and all his work. All we do is trust him enough to let him do it. It 's God's gift from start to finish! We don't play the major role. If we did, we'd probably go around bragging that we'd done the whole thing! No, we neither make nor save ourselves. God does both the making and saving." (Ephesians 2 - The Message Bible)
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/11/2004 1:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Jo-Ann says
Hi,
I do not see the 'mission of Christ" as judgement. I see it as coming to redeem, to restore, to give abundant life, to transform life. He said this in John "coincidentally" so that the pharisees would overhear Him. He was reaching out to them as well, but they could not "see" what He was saying. They were spiritually blinded because they were so full of judgment, not full of love.
I agree with your post as to Christ's mission being redemption. I believe that this mission of redemption includes judgment. Later in John we find more clearly how this works (at least as I understand it). In John 16 we read,
"But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ “But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged."
It seems that the crucifiction and death of Jesus had dual effects. These both happen at the same time - blessing and judgment. His death judged the ruler of the world and his entire kingdom. These same men that Jesus called "blind" were called the children of the devil because they did his deeds. These men didn't hear His words because they weren't of God. Ultimately they will participate in the judgment of their father and share his fate in the lake of fire. They claim the ruler of Rome and his system as their king, rejecting and killing the one that came to save them, who had healed their people and brought the words of God. It is like the parable of the wedding feast in which the same invitation and feast was life to the guests that were clothed in righteousness and judgment to those who were not. The one thrown into judgment was called "friend" by the Master with the same Greek word that Jesus called Judas "friend" in the garden.
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said* to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. “Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
Pilate said* to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.”
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. “Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Now he who was betraying Him gave them a sign, saying, “Whomever I kiss, He is the one; seize Him.” Immediately Judas went to Jesus and said, “Hail, Rabbi!” and kissed Him. And Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you have come for.” Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
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Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 9/11/2004 9:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
Jesus' purpose was defintely judgment in as much as coming for the purpose of "destroying" involves judgment. By appearing to take away sins, we were set free from the bondage of sin and offered redemption. If we refuse to repent and cling to our sins, we will have our share in the judgment.
Spen,
You are right. I humbly stand corrected. The Father is in a place to rightly judge our hearts. He did come to redeem, to restore, and to transform - but you're right...to judge as well.
I don't believe that our place is to judge though. That is where I have difficulty, where believers "set themselves up" as judges, and where I see believers and non-believers hurt. It was silly of me to imply that the Father does not judge. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that post.
I do believe that his mercy is wider than we imagine though, and I only hope to have his heart when shepherding people, His wisdom, His discernment, and love covering all of those things. Everything we say and do, needs to be in love. I think we all agree with that.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/12/2004 3:13 AM (GMT -6) | |
Jo-Ann
You say, "I don't believe that our place is to judge though. That is where I have difficulty, where believers "set themselves up" as judges, and where I see believers and non-believers hurt."
You are right that we are not to set ourselves over others to judge them. We are, however, commanded to judge actions of the brethren with in the church when these actions are contrary to the Law of God. The "enforcement" authority that we are given, however, is not eternal punishment or physical beatings or burning - only expulsion. The Word of God is the authority and God remains the ultimate judge.
We are also commanded to judge the teachings of people claiming to teach for God. I don't have time now to address this, but this also only carries the same enforcement as the above - expulsion.
1 Co 5, "I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES."
1 Co 6, "Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life? So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren, but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?
Spen Lake
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