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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 9/15/2004 10:12 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Sparky says, "It seems to me you are reaching the borderline of playing God by declaring you can read into a man’s heart."
Spen asks, "Could you clarify what you mean, I don't think that I understand you." In this thread I haven't intended to "prove" that I know what is in a man's heart. I have, instead, been attempting to highlight that external actions of mercy, compassion, and even good moral behavior are NOT proof of the correctness or validity of one's beliefs and heart. Lack of them will point to a flaw, but the existance of them do not "prove" one is right or one's heart is right.
Spen, I don't think you have omni-eyes, but maybe the Holy Ghost has gifted you with discernment. You content that you are not trying to "prove" what is in a man's heart. But then you continue a few lines down by trying to explain how good fruits do not "prove" a man's heart. So what is your method of "proving" a man's heart?
Please explain how you read a man's heart if it is not by his external actions like you claim? How do you "prove" one's heart is right?
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/15/2004 11:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Sparky says, "It seems to me you are reaching the borderline of playing God by declaring you can read into a man’s heart."
Spen asks, "Could you clarify what you mean, I don't think that I understand you." In this thread I haven't intended to "prove" that I know what is in a man's heart. I have, instead, been attempting to highlight that external actions of mercy, compassion, and even good moral behavior are NOT proof of the correctness or validity of one's beliefs and heart. Lack of them will point to a flaw, but the existance of them do not "prove" one is right or one's heart is right.
Spen, I don't think you have omni-eyes, but maybe the Holy Ghost has gifted you with discernment. You content that you are not trying to "prove" what is in a man's heart. But then you continue a few lines down by trying to explain how good fruits do not "prove" a man's heart. So what is your method of "proving" a man's heart?
Please explain how you read a man's heart if it is not by his external actions like you claim? How do you "prove" one's heart is right?
Bad actions "prove" a man's heart bad and in need of the gospel. Example murder: "you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." The converse of this does not prove anything necessarily. The observation that someone has not physically murdered someone does not "prove" that his heart is good. Thus the bad proves the heart is bad, good actions do not "prove" the heart is good.
One verse that I will cite in your favor is, 1 John 3:7, "Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning." This verse is still in the overall context of 1 John. Earlier in the book we find the same expression with a qualified dependency, "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him." There is still a dependency to "know" the He is righteous and believe in Him. Thus, faith is still the basis of "practicing righteousness." To truly "practice righteousness" there needs to be a pure heart and not just external actions.
Thus, I go back to the premise that sinful actions are proof of a problem in the heart. Merciful and compassionate actions are not proof of a pure and righteous heart. It seems that the "proof" only rests wuth the negative and that good actions in themselves cannot be taken as justification or endorsement of beliefs.
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 9/21/2004 9:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Sparky says, "It seems to me you are reaching the borderline of playing God by declaring you can read into a man’s heart."
Spen asks, "Could you clarify what you mean, I don't think that I understand you." In this thread I haven't intended to "prove" that I know what is in a man's heart. I have, instead, been attempting to highlight that external actions of mercy, compassion, and even good moral behavior are NOT proof of the correctness or validity of one's beliefs and heart. Lack of them will point to a flaw, but the existance of them do not "prove" one is right or one's heart is right.
Spen, I don't think you have omni-eyes, but maybe the Holy Ghost has gifted you with discernment. You content that you are not trying to "prove" what is in a man's heart. But then you continue a few lines down by trying to explain how good fruits do not "prove" a man's heart. So what is your method of "proving" a man's heart?
Please explain how you read a man's heart if it is not by his external actions like you claim? How do you "prove" one's heart is right?
Bad actions "prove" a man's heart bad and in need of the gospel. Example murder: "you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." The converse of this does not prove anything necessarily. The observation that someone has not physically murdered someone does not "prove" that his heart is good. Thus the bad proves the heart is bad, good actions do not "prove" the heart is good.
One verse that I will cite in your favor is, 1 John 3:7, "Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning." This verse is still in the overall context of 1 John. Earlier in the book we find the same expression with a qualified dependency, "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him." There is still a dependency to "know" the He is righteous and believe in Him. Thus, faith is still the basis of "practicing righteousness." To truly "practice righteousness" there needs to be a pure heart and not just external actions.
Thus, I go back to the premise that sinful actions are proof of a problem in the heart. Merciful and compassionate actions are not proof of a pure and righteous heart. It seems that the "proof" only rests wuth the negative and that good actions in themselves cannot be taken as justification or endorsement of beliefs.
Spen,
Thanks for citing me some scripture; I appreciate it when you use your vast knowledge of the Word to help point out ideas. I agree with your arguments, but I don’t find them to support your premise. I think we agree that good fruits can not fully prove the state of one’s heart to be right. But my point is that it is all we (as mere men) have to go on, while you seem to sugest we have something more to go on. Psychic powers of some kind, I don't know what it could be, unless the Holy Spirit has gifted you with discernment, but that seems to be what the elders of your dying friend claimed and we saw the result of those fruits.
You never directly answered my question, can you prove when a man’s “heart is right” (Y/N)? | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 9/21/2004 11:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Actually, I’m not so sure you can even “prove” when a man’s heart is NOT right by using bad fruits. Both bad and good fruits only indicate where one’s heart is at in that given moment of time. Someone might very well be true to their heart but still be wrong in their theology and produce bad fruits. One could say many historical Christians had wrong hearts, proven by the bad fruit of murder such as John Calvin, The Roman Catholic Church and even Saul/Paul. They all displayed good fruits as well. For example, Calvinism can be admired for instilling a humble attitude. The Roman Catholic Church has probably shown more charity towards man then any other institution in the world. Saint Paul might very well be the world’s greatest missionary. Let’s take a closer look at Saint Paul as an illustration:
Acts 7:57-8:3
At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep. And Saul was there, giving approval to his death. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.
Jesus/God can see into a man’s heart and judge. We can only look and the fruits of men and discern the best we can, given our finite limitations. Regardless, we are commanded to love both types of hearts, why, because love penetrates both. It is easy to love those that accept your love but we are called to love hardened hearts as well. The first martyr St. Stephen cried out to the Lord for mercy on his own murders. It was this type of profound radical love that penetrated Saul’s heart, planting a mustered seed that would make an enormous impact on him. Did Saul’s conscience convict him of his wrong theology right there on the spot? Not entirely, Saul still suppressed his guilty conscience, he continued throwing Christians into prison and persecuting them. If we witnessed Saul at that time, what would we have concluded, was his heart right? His bad fruits would lead us to say no, his heart was not right. As outsiders, we can speculate, purvey and gossip about the hearts of others, but Jesus has a window into man’s heart that we do not. Jesus saw something more within Saul’s heart that we as mere men can not see on the surface. I suggest what He saw was Saul’s search and yearning for something more then what appeared on the face of this world, something more then greed, pain, suffering, sickness and death, something more then the knowledge of righteous that was used to kill St. Stephen. I submit Jesus saw Saul’s love for God, similar to how the Father was able to look into Job’s heart beyond his whacked theology.
My point is, we as mere men, can not see into Oprah’s heart or Mother Teresa’s heart, or anyone else’s heart, we have enough of a challenge to look into our own heart. Of course we can see the surface of someone’s heart by the external fruits, this type of discerning of the heart is used to choose our friends and even our spouse. But even a loving relationship can suffer when we try to penetrate beyond the limited surface of someone’s heart and intentions. I think it is important to realize our knowledge of someone’s heart has boundaries.
We can and should use both good and bad fruits as indicators to help us discern where people are at in any given time of their life so we can share and help them. But, being a Christian and thinking we have our theology in place makes us no better then anyone else, (hopefully just better off). Job's friends are a good example. Our knowledge should be shared so that their mind can bring hope to their heart. But knowledge can also puff us up with pride and spoil the heart. We should weigh our dogma and the truth of the word of God and balance it with our hearts love. True love comes from the truth of God, but the truth of God is not true without love.
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spenlake
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| Posted 9/21/2004 12:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Sparky,
I very much liked your post. It was well thought and articluate.
I have some questions that need clarification. You state, "but Jesus has a window into man’s heart that we do not. Jesus saw something more within Saul’s heart that we as mere men can not see on the surface." I am sure that what you have said is true, Jesus does see more than what we see on the surface. If you mean to imply that this is the "reason" that Jesus acted, I reject this. You state, "I submit Jesus saw Saul’s love for God, similar to how the Father was able to look into Job’s heart beyond his whacked theology." Persecuting Christians is not a misplaced love for God. It is "zeal" for God as Paul says "as to zeal, a persecutor of the church;" And Romans 10:2 comfirms, "For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God." This same zeal is found in the High Priests who killed Jesus. If we do not love the Son, we do not love the Father. If we don't love our brother whom we have seen, we do not love God whom we haven't seen. I disagree that Jesus saw some misplaced love. Jesus saw hate and the actions of hate - and He still loved. He offers this message to all, regardless of what He sees in their heart. It was not Paul's misplaced love that caused Jesus to single him out.
A second question I have concerns your statement, "Regardless, we are commanded to love both types of hearts, why, because love penetrates both." We are commanded to love people (I think this must be what you mean when you say we need to love the heart). We are told to "judge" external actions of those within the church. This "judging" would be a tangible expression of love. Expelling a wicked brother from among us is consistent with loving the brethren. I am left uncertain as to what you mean by "love the heart." We love the person and hate bad actions, "on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh."
Lastly, I strongly disagree with your statement, "the truth of God is not true without love." This is not biblical. 1 Co 13 does not state that faith is not faith without love or the actions of feeding people is not good. Faith remains faith and the truth of God remains the truth of God even if the one speaking it doesn't have love. The "truth" doesn't suddenly become "untruth" as you suggest - it simply doesn't profit the one speaking it without love. It may very well profit those who hear it however. Consider Paul's comments in Philippians.
"Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice."
I think that we could state, "our love never saved anybody." People cannot be reconciled to God because of our love. This concept (I am not accusing you of this) would be an attack on the gospel itself. God's love in us may motivate us to be merciful and kind, etc. but this is not salvific. If it motivates us to share the gospel then it still isn't our love that brings salvation. "In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and gave Himself up for us." It is the love of God that saves us and that was demonstrated on the cross, once for all. Believing in this love brings salvation, not the love or merciful actions of mankind. The only action that mattered for eternity is the action of God-Man and HIs loving death.
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 9/22/2004 5:23 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Sparky,
I very much liked your post. It was well thought and articluate.
I have some questions that need clarification. You state, "but Jesus has a window into man’s heart that we do not. Jesus saw something more within Saul’s heart that we as mere men can not see on the surface." I am sure that what you have said is true, Jesus does see more than what we see on the surface. If you mean to imply that this is the "reason" that Jesus acted, I reject this. You state, "I submit Jesus saw Saul’s love for God, similar to how the Father was able to look into Job’s heart beyond his whacked theology." Persecuting Christians is not a misplaced love for God. It is "zeal" for God as Paul says "as to zeal, a persecutor of the church;" And Romans 10:2 comfirms, "For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God." This same zeal is found in the High Priests who killed Jesus. If we do not love the Son, we do not love the Father. If we don't love our brother whom we have seen, we do not love God whom we haven't seen. I disagree that Jesus saw some misplaced love. Jesus saw hate and the actions of hate - and He still loved. He offers this message to all, regardless of what He sees in their heart. It was not Paul's misplaced love that caused Jesus to single him out.
I agree that Saul's persecution of Christians were acts of “zeal”, not love. But I think you have misunderstood my intent, it was to show an example, of the two contrasting fruits of Saul and Stephen. Ironicaly, I was trying to convey how we can only speculate, not knowing for sure, what Jesus saw in Saul’s heart. With that said, I suspect Jesus saw love. Why, because Paul witnessed the good fruit of Stephen’s love, added with the love story of Jesus embracing the cross and I think you find it hitting home with Saul. I think it was this type of Christian love that was haunting Saul’s conscience and penetrating his heart. Not misplaced love that could be confused with zeal. Please state your view, why did Jesus single out Saul?
quote:
A second question I have concerns your statement, "Regardless, we are commanded to love both types of hearts, why, because love penetrates both." We are commanded to love people (I think this must be what you mean when you say we need to love the heart). We are told to "judge" external actions of those within the church. This "judging" would be a tangible expression of love. Expelling a wicked brother from among us is consistent with loving the brethren. I am left uncertain as to what you mean by "love the heart." We love the person and hate bad actions, "on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh."
Matthew 25:35-46
For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
I think you understand, “we love the person and hate bad actions”. We certainly don’t love the actions of men of flesh (that sounds weird), on the contrary we should hate sin. The sin we should hate the most is our own sin and by doing so set an example for others. In fact, we should use our imagination to help us battle our sin by envisioning how much God detest sin. But we should still love ourselves and others; we should love the imago Dai that is in all of us. I believe we are called to reflect the love (sometimes tough love) of God towards others, love that can penetrate even hardened hearts. I suspect Oprah’s act’s of generosity are not motivated by her love of Christ. Contrary to Oprah, I do believe Mother Teresa took to heart Matthew 25:35-46.
quote:
Lastly, I strongly disagree with your statement, "the truth of God is not true without love." This is not biblical. 1 Co 13 does not state that faith is not faith without love or the actions of feeding people is not good. Faith remains faith and the truth of God remains the truth of God even if the one speaking it doesn't have love. The "truth" doesn't suddenly become "untruth" as you suggest - it simply doesn't profit the one speaking it without love. It may very well profit those who hear it however. Consider Paul's comments in Philippians.
"Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice."
I think that we could state, "our love never saved anybody." People cannot be reconciled to God because of our love. This concept (I am not accusing you of this) would be an attack on the gospel itself. God's love in us may motivate us to be merciful and kind, etc. but this is not salvific. If it motivates us to share the gospel then it still isn't our love that brings salvation. "In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and gave Himself up for us." It is the love of God that saves us and that was demonstrated on the cross, once for all. Believing in this love brings salvation, not the love or merciful actions of mankind. The only action that mattered for eternity is the action of God-Man and HIs loving death.
My message was directed inwards towards the mouth that confesses the truth, not outwards towards the ears that hear the truth. Love should not come at the expense of truth. True love comes from the truth of God, but what is the truth of God without love? How can one speak the truth of God if one's heart is not true to God? I will tell you, be your heart of the devil.
God is the Word and God is Love. Will the word of God be needed in heaven as love will?
1 Tim. 4:4-6
For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer. 6 If you put these instructions before the brethren, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the good doctrine which you have followed.
Knowledge of the Word is used to fight the battle of the mind but victory is achieved by winning the heart. The natural man can not see spiritual truths, so we can only try and share knowledge of God and hope to stimulate their God given conscience and reasoning. Knowledge of God should draw us closer to God. In turn, the Holy Spirit bears good fruit to the heart which can be manifested and exhibited by external good fruits. The Holy Spirit is present throughout the world; I would not discount any acts of men that produce truly good fruits. All that is truly good ultimately comes from God. If any good comes out of Oprah giving away cars, then it is a gift from God. Who are we to judge how God chooses to use others. Oprah can not buy a stairway to heaven or give one away for that matter. Jesus Christ is our true Savior. If we can, let us help her and others with their theology, just like each of us do here on this board. But remember, the devil has more knowledge about God then any of us will ever have, but what the devil is devoid of is love. When Jesus comes to judge, he will NOT use our theology to separate us, nor will it be our fruits, good deeds or works, those things can be faked, forged and misguided. It will be our heart that only God can see that will set us apart. We will all be judged by our heart for others, our self and most importantly, our heart for God.
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/25/2004 3:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Sparky says,
quote:
I agree that Saul's persecution of Christians were acts of “zeal”, not love. But I think you have misunderstood my intent, it was to show an example, of the two contrasting fruits of Saul and Stephen. Ironicaly, I was trying to convey how we can only speculate, not knowing for sure, what Jesus saw in Saul’s heart. With that said, I suspect Jesus saw love. Why, because Paul witnessed the good fruit of Stephen’s love, added with the love story of Jesus embracing the cross and I think you find it hitting home with Saul. I think it was this type of Christian love that was haunting Saul’s conscience and penetrating his heart. Not misplaced love that could be confused with zeal. Please state your view, why did Jesus single out Saul?
I don't know the "why" except to state that it would be the same "why" that God loved Jacob and hated Esau and chose Jacob before he had done anything good or bad. Paul gives the reason as follows, "For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it; and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions. But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles." I don't see anything about God seeing and responding to something in Paul's heart. I suppose one could make an argument that when God created Paul and Jacob in their mother's womb He set something in to their heart to respond to - but I think that this is speculation. What is clear from Paul's own narrative is that he wasn't "stewing" in some remorse and under conviction from Stephen's message. Instead he was hellbent on leading even greater persecution. Jesus, when Paul was hating God, appeared to Paul because God decided to reveal Jesus to Paul physically from heaven. It was this revelation that Paul responded to, not the love of Stephen, as I understand the narrative. Paul states that he was set apart for this task from his mother's womb, before he had done any actions. The same thing happens with Jacob. God appears to him at Bethel and again God comes and physically accosts him as an angel to wrestle through the night. Jacob didn't plan and choose either one of these events and without them, what would have happened?
quote:
My message was directed inwards towards the mouth that confesses the truth, not outwards towards the ears that hear the truth. Love should not come at the expense of truth. True love comes from the truth of God, but what is the truth of God without love? How can one speak the truth of God if one's heart is not true to God? I will tell you, be your heart of the devil.
God is the Word and God is Love. Will the word of God be needed in heaven as love will?
This is the core of our difference. I don't believe that it is OUR love that gives power and life to the message of the gospel. It is GOD'S love that gives the gospel its power. This love is contained in the message itself. "In this is love, not that we love Him, but that He loved us and gave Himself up for us." This is why Paul can rejoice when the truth is preached from malicious motives, as in Philippi. Detestable men motivated by corruption, hate and malice could still present God's love to those heading for damnation through the message of the gospel. Those that heard the message could enter into the Love of God while those that preached the message could go away damned. Simply put, "To speak the gospel clearly is to bring the love of God - no exceptions." If the one bringing the message of the gospel has not love, then it profits the messenger nothing but still conveys the love of God to those that receive it. They will be saved and be reconciled with God, escaping damnation. The gospel IS NOT DEPENDENT on our love. Our love is dependent upon believing the message of the gospel.
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 9/25/2004 4:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
The gospel IS NOT DEPENDENT on our love. Our love is dependent upon believing the message of the gospel.
I agree all true love comes from God. We have no love outside the love of God.
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spenlake
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Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/25/2004 12:02 PM (GMT -6) | |
Sparky,
I was re-reading your posts and realized that I didn't respond to your question.
You say, quote:
I think we agree that good fruits can not fully prove the state of one’s heart to be right. But my point is that it is all we (as mere men) have to go on, while you seem to sugest we have something more to go on. Psychic powers of some kind, I don't know what it could be, unless the Holy Spirit has gifted you with discernment, but that seems to be what the elders of your dying friend claimed and we saw the result of those fruits.
You never directly answered my question, can you prove when a man’s “heart is right” (Y/N)?
I reply that "man" is not equipped to "prove" that another man's heart is right. I believe that all we can legitimately judge is the actions/words. I am opposed to judging by "revelation." It may seem bizzare to you, I am not sure what background you come from, but there are many that claim that God reveals man's hearts to them through revelation (psychic powers perhaps, but they attribute it to the Holy Spirit). I have a real problem with this concept and believe that it is inherently abusive. For the sake of example I will past in an actual email sent by an elder of this same church to a friend of mine. All my friend had done was to question a decision during a congregational meeting called to discuss this decision. You decide if is the revelation of the "Holy Spirit" or "psychic powers" or something else. What I want to highlight is that this guy is a "nice person" and really thought that he was helping. He was sincere in his beliefs that God was using him to prophesy to my friend to "help." His claims regarding knowing my friend's heart are an example of what I don't believe to be proper. "Your anger is a condition of your heart, your inner man. I come to my people to circumcise their heart of flesh. Your heart is a stone and I can't circumcise it. I won't take a chisel to hearts of stones- I remove them. The judgments, murmuring and complaining for years that have come out of your mouth against my people has filled the cup. They will now be poured back upon you." The entire "prophecy" is given below for context if you wish to see it.
quote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clem
To:
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: Body Meeting 10/11/2001
Dave,
I've been up since 3am worshiping the Lord in bed and around 4am the Lord started talking to me concerning you. When I came into my office at 4:48am to send you an e-mail and collect my thoughts of what the Lord has shown me- I got on line and saw your e-mail. In reading it Dave, you just confirmed to me that what I was hearing from the Spirit was Him!
In your e-mail you stated that, "I just don't want to be in another meeting in a couple of years where the furniture is going to be moved again." Dave, believe me you won't! That is be around WOTC (congregation) for your heart is not with her (this local church). For we (elders) will not be held hostage by your scrutiny when God decides someone is to go or to come. "Guess I'll just keep doing what is placed in front of me to do, and wait and watch." That we definitely don't need, for how can two walk together if they don't agree? We need people to help pull the load who are in agreement with us, not watch us pull it alone. You can't pull it because your not in agreement with us. Your pulling the wrong way in the wrong direction. You've been at odds with leadership since day one, for sixteen plus years (?) since you've been here according to your own words when I asked you in one of our meetings.
It is obvious you did not repent from what I had to say as an elder in the e-mail I sent you concerning what "Jesus said about anger". Last night at the meeting I could feel the anger coming out of your heart. It was not the question you asked but the tone, attitude an anger directed towards
leadership that concerns me as an elder participating in overseeing you. You had no support Dave last night in the direction you wanted the meeting to go! Your anger and frustration has been consistent for along time. This is a real spiritual concern.
Rehma:
"Your anger is a condition of your heart, your inner man. I come to my people to circumcise their heart of flesh. Your heart is a stone and I can't circumcise it. I won't take a chisel to hearts of stones- I remove them. The judgments, murmuring and complaining for years that have come out of your mouth against my people has filled the cup. They will now be poured back upon you.
Last night my (Bride) church broke through and cross over a huge
barrier(like Jordon) there was a flow of life from My Tree of Life, yet you remained on the other side- while my people crossed over in peace, unity and faith. You remained stiffed necked and defiant and set in your self-righteousness not discerning what I was doing or about. There you shall remain, on the other side.
I will remove you from wotc and have already even done so- for you shall not enter into what I have in store for WOTC in the days ahead. You Shall Not be able to rejoice with her (wotc) when the joy and New Wine is poured out.
You Shall Not participate in my works or what I will be doing at (WOTC)for you will be doing your own good works. For you shall remain isolated in a jail that you have made with your own mouth and hands and so shall your family. Many have voted by leaving but you have remained for years and voted by robbing me in tithes and offerings. Yet you have participate in the benefits of my provision for years. You Have Robbed ME,(not wotc) therefore the storehouse of your heart shall remain empty and bankrupt. For I rejoice in cheerful givers, and have promised to keep the devourer away from those who are."
Elder
Clem
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/26/2004 5:43 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Sparky,
I was re-reading your posts and realized that I didn't respond to your question.
You say, quote:
I think we agree that good fruits can not fully prove the state of one’s heart to be right. But my point is that it is all we (as mere men) have to go on, while you seem to sugest we have something more to go on. Psychic powers of some kind, I don't know what it could be, unless the Holy Spirit has gifted you with discernment, but that seems to be what the elders of your dying friend claimed and we saw the result of those fruits.
You never directly answered my question, can you prove when a man’s “heart is right” (Y/N)?
I reply that "man" is not equipped to "prove" that another man's heart is right. I believe that all we can legitimately judge is the actions/words. I am opposed to judging by "revelation." It may seem bizzare to you, I am not sure what background you come from, but there are many that claim that God reveals man's hearts to them through revelation (psychic powers perhaps, but they attribute it to the Holy Spirit). I have a real problem with this concept and believe that it is inherently abusive. For the sake of example I will past in an actual email sent by an elder of this same church to a friend of mine. All my friend had done was to question a decision during a congregational meeting called to discuss this decision. You decide if is the revelation of the "Holy Spirit" or "psychic powers" or something else. What I want to highlight is that this guy is a "nice person" and really thought that he was helping. He was sincere in his beliefs that God was using him to prophesy to my friend to "help." His claims regarding knowing my friend's heart are an example of what I don't believe to be proper. "Your anger is a condition of your heart, your inner man. I come to my people to circumcise their heart of flesh. Your heart is a stone and I can't circumcise it. I won't take a chisel to hearts of stones- I remove them. The judgments, murmuring and complaining for years that have come out of your mouth against my people has filled the cup. They will now be poured back upon you." The entire "prophecy" is given below for context if you wish to see it.
quote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clem
To:
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: Body Meeting 10/11/2001
Dave,
I've been up since 3am worshiping the Lord in bed and around 4am the Lord started talking to me concerning you. When I came into my office at 4:48am to send you an e-mail and collect my thoughts of what the Lord has shown me- I got on line and saw your e-mail. In reading it Dave, you just confirmed to me that what I was hearing from the Spirit was Him!
In your e-mail you stated that, "I just don't want to be in another meeting in a couple of years where the furniture is going to be moved again." Dave, believe me you won't! That is be around WOTC (congregation) for your heart is not with her (this local church). For we (elders) will not be held hostage by your scrutiny when God decides someone is to go or to come. "Guess I'll just keep doing what is placed in front of me to do, and wait and watch." That we definitely don't need, for how can two walk together if they don't agree? We need people to help pull the load who are in agreement with us, not watch us pull it alone. You can't pull it because your not in agreement with us. Your pulling the wrong way in the wrong direction. You've been at odds with leadership since day one, for sixteen plus years (?) since you've been here according to your own words when I asked you in one of our meetings.
It is obvious you did not repent from what I had to say as an elder in the e-mail I sent you concerning what "Jesus said about anger". Last night at the meeting I could feel the anger coming out of your heart. It was not the question you asked but the tone, attitude an anger directed towards
leadership that concerns me as an elder participating in overseeing you. You had no support Dave last night in the direction you wanted the meeting to go! Your anger and frustration has been consistent for along time. This is a real spiritual concern.
Rehma:
"Your anger is a condition of your heart, your inner man. I come to my people to circumcise their heart of flesh. Your heart is a stone and I can't circumcise it. I won't take a chisel to hearts of stones- I remove them. The judgments, murmuring and complaining for years that have come out of your mouth against my people has filled the cup. They will now be poured back upon you.
Last night my (Bride) church broke through and cross over a huge
barrier(like Jordon) there was a flow of life from My Tree of Life, yet you remained on the other side- while my people crossed over in peace, unity and faith. You remained stiffed necked and defiant and set in your self-righteousness not discerning what I was doing or about. There you shall remain, on the other side.
I will remove you from wotc and have already even done so- for you shall not enter into what I have in store for WOTC in the days ahead. You Shall Not be able to rejoice with her (wotc) when the joy and New Wine is poured out.
You Shall Not participate in my works or what I will be doing at (WOTC)for you will be doing your own good works. For you shall remain isolated in a jail that you have made with your own mouth and hands and so shall your family. Many have voted by leaving but you have remained for years and voted by robbing me in tithes and offerings. Yet you have participate in the benefits of my provision for years. You Have Robbed ME,(not wotc) therefore the storehouse of your heart shall remain empty and bankrupt. For I rejoice in cheerful givers, and have promised to keep the devourer away from those who are."
Elder
Clem
Spen,
Wow, I have never seen this type of stuff in church. But a lot of poeple on this website have made comments about their church difficulties. It is sad to say the least. Personally, I don’t put that much trust in man without first looking at the fruits of God working in their own life. Not the money type of prosperity but transforming riches of the heart and wisdom.
Thanks for sharing, Mark
P.S. for the most part I agree with your other post. I overstated my self by putting love ahead of truth. After thinking about it, I don’t think you can really separate the Truth of God and The Love of God. I don’t think they are mutually exclusive.
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