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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Ethics, etc. > I Just don't know what to call this...? | Forum Quick Jump
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 9/2/2004 3:24 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
P.S. What is the good kind of "guilt"? The responsibility and awareness of our own wrongdoings, maybe?
1. You did this specific thing wrong and need to repent of it. The good kind of guilt. specific and solvable
2. You are bad. Period. The bad kind of guilt. nebulous, generic, vague and unsolvable, always available as a blunt hammer to be used against you by others
You can repent and turn from the good kind, the bad kind condemns you for life.
Guess which one the Holy Spirit uses.
Guess which one the accuser of the saints uses.
Change a couple of “you”s to “I”s and by George I think you’ve got it, Scotty. 
The confusion always seems to stem from the right reflection we don’t’ see in the mirror.
I am becoming more and more convinced that we need to encourage people to not just give intellectual assent to what they believe, but to believe it in their heart, and act upon it. They need to believe who they ALREADY are in Christ, and what is already have as heirs with Christ, and prayerfully their choices will flow from that. The last thing people need is judgment...discernment perhaps - judgment no. As Wicker, or someone else has said, people who feel like they are failing, or failures - don't need to hear more about how they've failed, or are failing. They need to be reminded of who they are, and challenged lovingly. And I have also learned that each person, each couple is unique in the Father's eyes, and that we cannot "blanket" them all with our own theology. Jesus treated people as more important than the law. He surprised us with radical grace and outrageous love.
O Lord, let us love like that!
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2004 4:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
I've spent the last several days watching friends go through pain and misery as they struggle with whether or not they should separate.
I’m sorry to hear that your friends are suffering in a painful marriage. They sound like some real troopers, what explanations to they give for sticking together? I think that Wicker is right about searching for the positives, how ever small they might be, for building a foundation and starting point. If physical safety is an issue, then intervention should be made for the welfare of all. Sometimes individuals are in such a mess they can’t even care for themselves, let alone others. They can become a danger to their selves and others. If that is the case, separation is likly imperative.
quote:
Years of untold pain and misery, painful communication, no intimacy, and a lack of friendship and respect. They've hung in there far longer than most people would that I know, so how could I judge them - no matter what choice they make?
I don’t think anybody here is passing judgment on people that can’t go the distance in their marriage. We all fall short and miss the mark in different areas of life. Marriage is one of the toughest, by far.
quote:
We choose out of who believe we are in Christ. Transformation is largely a result of our understanding of who we are in Him, and the choices that we make as a result of that understanding. Perhaps that is why scripture says to bring "every thought captive". Perhaps the real battlefield takes place in our mind? Any thoughts on this?
I agree that the battle is in our mind. We battle years of habitual thoughts that we struggle to take captive. It is one area that I thought Iconoclast had a wealth of resources that could be used to help people in overcoming this ongoing battle. I hope Icon sticks around here as a regular contributor to this board. We all have much to learn, for instance, the serpent in all of us. But like all things in this world, it has limitations. Only the Godhead Himself can deliver us from ourselves, sometimes we just need to give Him room to work. Maybe in your friends case, they need time to find God and to find one's self. Maybe then, they can once again, find each other.
God bless your heart and all hearts that feel the pain of love.
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/3/2004 7:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
so all differences of opinion are sin?
we're sinning with our "hearts of stone" right now
Sin separates us from God.
Sin separates us from ourselves.
Sin separates us form others.
If our differences separate us from loving relationships, then the smell of sin lingers nearby.
Peace,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/4/2004 2:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
so all differences of opinion are sin?
we're sinning with our "hearts of stone" right now
Sin separates us from God.
Sin separates us from ourselves.
Sin separates us form others.
If our differences separate us from loving relationships, then the smell of sin lingers near by.
Peace,
Mark
Once we come to accept that "sin" is the problem, our own sin, then we are approaching the answer. Jesus came to address and provide an answer for "sin" and it is only in this one answer that we find true freedom and healing from our incurable disease of sin. He didn't come to deliver improved techniques in counseling or tolerance, but freedom from sin to those that believe in His work.
None of us has the right to judge the "sins" of others, making us superior to them. There is one, however, who is coming to judge sins, my sins and those of this couple. To the extent that we have failed to believe in the grace extended to us, this is not a good thing. May God grant us all the healthy fear of God that trembles before the coming wrath of God. "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?"
Thankfully, John has spoken to us a real hope that is sure.
Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/4/2004 3:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
The last thing people need is judgment...discernment perhaps - judgment no.
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
None of us has the right to judge the "sins" of others, making us superior to them.
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain 1. You did this specific thing wrong and need to repent of it. The good kind of guilt. specific and solvable
Judgment means to separate, make a distinction and discriminate.
To judge and separate between "things" can be good.
Judgment that separates "people" is bad. It destroys relationships and blocks the flow of love. Separation from God is the root of all sin. Ironically and unfortunately, sin separates us from God, resulting in an endless loop of sin. Repentance is the only thing that can break the loop and restore our relationship with God. All other relationships will be strained, to say the least, when we are not right in our relationship with God.
Repent - Trust- Forgive - Love
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 9/4/2004 11:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
yes, the sooner your friends realize how worthless and bad they are, the sooner they can.... um, realize how worthless and bad they are
that should make things better for them
once they realize how worthless and bad they are, they can start telling others how worthless and bad they are as well
Um...I’m all ears!
people respond better to positive influences then negative ones, especially when the issue isn't one of physical harm
ever worked for a boss that always and only gave you negative feedback?
ever worked for a boss that mostly gave you positive feedback?
notice the difference in your response?
did you marry the girl that thought you were worthless or the girl that thought very highly of you?
piling more scorn upon two people who are struggling with their marriage and thus probably feel like failures at marriage isn't going to get a positive response, imhfo
Hey Wicker Man et al
Welcome to the board! I just read quickly your posts and think I may really like and agree with you!
I came on board here asking the community about marriage issues. I have been more blessed than ever. I have many new friends. I also have some lovingly challenging me. Both are good. You seem more on my direction. I always try to get folks to go the positive way if possible.
I do think though...sometimes after so long in relationship, we may actually tend toward the negative people and ideas. this is an unconsious tendency. I'm nearly 50, and have been so shocked as people I know of keep going back to hurtful or toxic people..even in marriage...and think it just fate...when it seems surely they actually are searching for the kind of person they've been familiar with.
Have you seen this?
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 9/4/2004 9:37 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
yes, the sooner your friends realize how worthless and bad they are, the sooner they can.... um, realize how worthless and bad they are
that should make things better for them
once they realize how worthless and bad they are, they can start telling others how worthless and bad they are as well
Um...I’m all ears!
people respond better to positive influences then negative ones, especially when the issue isn't one of physical harm
ever worked for a boss that always and only gave you negative feedback?
ever worked for a boss that mostly gave you positive feedback?
notice the difference in your response?
did you marry the girl that thought you were worthless or the girl that thought very highly of you?
piling more scorn upon two people who are struggling with their marriage and thus probably feel like failures at marriage isn't going to get a positive response, imhfo
Hey Wicker Man et al
Welcome to the board! I just read quickly your posts and think I may really like and agree with you!
I came on board here asking the community about marriage issues. I have been more blessed than ever. I have many new friends. I also have some lovingly challenging me. Both are good. You seem more on my direction. I always try to get folks to go the positive way if possible.
I do think though...sometimes after so long in relationship, we may actually tend toward the negative people and ideas. this is an unconsious tendency. I'm nearly 50, and have been so shocked as people I know of keep going back to hurtful or toxic people..even in marriage...and think it just fate...when it seems surely they actually are searching for the kind of person they've been familiar with.
Have you seen this?
Barry
Sad Scenario...
It's been quite a week here...dealing with ministry issues, and having this gentleman stay with us for the past 5 nights. It has been intense and very tiring. I went to worship practice tonight very tired, then ended up nearly totalling my car on the way home...single vehicle accident. It was dark, rainy, and I was very tired. I'm afraid I've really made a mess of the car, but I praise God that I didn't hit anyone. Haven't had an accident since I was 17 or 18. Sometimes ministry gets to be overwhelming. But here's a thought for you: the celtic style of evangelism: belong, believe, behave (in that order). Sometimes I wonder if we don't expect more from each other than God expects from us...
Just a thought. I like the celtic perspective (bein a wee bit Irish meself  )
'Nite and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/5/2004 3:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
yes, the sooner your friends realize how worthless and bad they are, the sooner they can.... um, realize how worthless and bad they are
that should make things better for them
once they realize how worthless and bad they are, they can start telling others how worthless and bad they are as well
Um...I’m all ears!
people respond better to positive influences then negative ones, especially when the issue isn't one of physical harm
ever worked for a boss that always and only gave you negative feedback?
ever worked for a boss that mostly gave you positive feedback?
notice the difference in your response?
did you marry the girl that thought you were worthless or the girl that thought very highly of you?
piling more scorn upon two people who are struggling with their marriage and thus probably feel like failures at marriage isn't going to get a positive response, imhfo
Hey Wicker Man et al
Welcome to the board! I just read quickly your posts and think I may really like and agree with you!
I came on board here asking the community about marriage issues. I have been more blessed than ever. I have many new friends. I also have some lovingly challenging me. Both are good. You seem more on my direction. I always try to get folks to go the positive way if possible.
I do think though...sometimes after so long in relationship, we may actually tend toward the negative people and ideas. this is an unconsious tendency. I'm nearly 50, and have been so shocked as people I know of keep going back to hurtful or toxic people..even in marriage...and think it just fate...when it seems surely they actually are searching for the kind of person they've been familiar with.
Have you seen this?
Barry
If "positive outlook" and "positive ideas" is what appeals to you, there is a group of many people described in scripture that have that message exclusively. They say "peace, peace." There is another message of "good news" but its focus is death. First it focuses on the death of God, for which we are responsible by our actions. Then is focuses on our own embracing our own death out of gratitude for the death of the one who died for us. This leads to the true good news of a resurrection and eternal life. There is true peace to be found here but it is only reached through death. A positive peace built on positive self-image, feelings and ideas may bring a temporary comfort but this is the message of those that proclaim "peace, peace."
Spen Lake
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 9/5/2004 7:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
Hey Wicker Man et al
Welcome to the board! I just read quickly your posts and think I may really like and agree with you!
thanks
quote:
I do think though...sometimes after so long in relationship, we may actually tend toward the negative people and ideas. this is an unconsious tendency. I'm nearly 50, and have been so shocked as people I know of keep going back to hurtful or toxic people..even in marriage...and think it just fate...when it seems surely they actually are searching for the kind of person they've been familiar with.
Have you seen this?
i'm aware of it, people tend to stick with what's familiar to them, it's a certain inertia and fear of the unknown
what's sad is how many children grow up in negative situations and think that's normal, perpetuating the condition down the generations
jo-anne, i'm very interested in your celtic perspective, being a student of all things celtic, pictish, scottish, gaelic and having a granny of the johnstons of ayr
uromancer to the stars | | Back to Top | | |
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 9/5/2004 10:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
yes, the sooner your friends realize how worthless and bad they are, the sooner they can.... um, realize how worthless and bad they are
that should make things better for them
once they realize how worthless and bad they are, they can start telling others how worthless and bad they are as well
Um...I’m all ears!
people respond better to positive influences then negative ones, especially when the issue isn't one of physical harm
ever worked for a boss that always and only gave you negative feedback?
ever worked for a boss that mostly gave you positive feedback?
notice the difference in your response?
did you marry the girl that thought you were worthless or the girl that thought very highly of you?
piling more scorn upon two people who are struggling with their marriage and thus probably feel like failures at marriage isn't going to get a positive response, imhfo
Hey Wicker Man et al
Welcome to the board! I just read quickly your posts and think I may really like and agree with you!
I came on board here asking the community about marriage issues. I have been more blessed than ever. I have many new friends. I also have some lovingly challenging me. Both are good. You seem more on my direction. I always try to get folks to go the positive way if possible.
I do think though...sometimes after so long in relationship, we may actually tend toward the negative people and ideas. this is an unconsious tendency. I'm nearly 50, and have been so shocked as people I know of keep going back to hurtful or toxic people..even in marriage...and think it just fate...when it seems surely they actually are searching for the kind of person they've been familiar with.
Have you seen this?
Barry
Sad Scenario...
It's been quite a week here...dealing with ministry issues, and having this gentleman stay with us for the past 5 nights. It has been intense and very tiring. I went to worship practice tonight very tired, then ended up nearly totalling my car on the way home...single vehicle accident. It was dark, rainy, and I was very tired. I'm afraid I've really made a mess of the car, but I praise God that I didn't hit anyone. Haven't had an accident since I was 17 or 18. Sometimes ministry gets to be overwhelming. But here's a thought for you: the celtic style of evangelism: belong, believe, behave (in that order). Sometimes I wonder if we don't expect more from each other than God expects from us...
Just a thought. I like the celtic perspective (bein a wee bit Irish meself )
'Nite and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
JO-Anne,
Take time for yourself to recharge!
I wouldn't want anyone counseling me who was so exhausted they didn't drive right...what might they do wrong in the minstry to me?
I have learned it's ok, even good, to get some space with paole we're trying to help.
Do like the reference to celtic...belong, believe, behave is so oo right. Noticed that behavior follows, belonging leads and believing is the middle of the sandwich...Seems like we in the church now are often told behavior is first...believing next and belonging is optional.
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 9/5/2004 11:45 AM (GMT -6) | | A couple of thoughts today after worship.
Wicker...a friend of mine is reading a book on celtic evangelism. I'll get the name of it for you, and pass it along. He shared that thought with me. But I wholeheartedly agree in the belong, believe, behave approach to evangelism. He died for us all, and people need to belong, then they will believe, and from that comes behavior. We often expect people to behave before they belong, and that defeats people before they even get started.
I'm a wee bit 'o the Irish, but my grandfather was born in Edinburough, Scotland (I know I spelled that wrong).
Here's another thought - reflections from Jonah and psalm 103 (which Jonah probably recited from while meditating in the fish!) God has amnesia! (Psalm 103:12, and Jonah 3). What a wonderful thought. I love the "as far as the east is from the west" of Psalm 103. Our worship leader wrote a beautiful song from that psalm.
Barry,
Thanks for your words of care and caution. I can't chalk it up to being just tired, or to ministry - though that was part of it I'm sure - that and the wet road...etc. It has been quite a week as I've said, but I'm thankful. The car was the least of the week's hardships. A car can be replaced.
Spen - I believe I understand where you're coming from, and you bring the reminder of holiness to us. We need to be challenged to live lives out of who we are in Christ - and that will result in lives that bring honour to Him, and blessing - fruitful lives. I guess some of us lean more toward that than others. Though I agree with you, I lean more toward expressing grace in impossible situations. I know that both are needed; the expression of grace, and the challenge to live holy lives for Him. What I think is missing is the reminder to people of who they ALREADY are in Him, and the challenge to live out of that reality.
God Bless. I'm thankful for each of you, and what your insights on this board add to my life and ministry, and for the challenges you bring to me personally (and the encouragement)! We are all - after all - just sheep! 
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 9/9/2004 9:29 AM (GMT -6) | | 'Kay people. None of us knows exactly what's wrong in this couple's marriage so let's not get all divided on the "what if" scenarios. Let's start with what we know: 1. God created marriage and declared it good. (Oops! I almost forgot to type the letter "d" at the end of the word "good"!) 2. God considers it a sin when someone tears a married couple asunder. 3. God said that if a spouse is being sexually unfaithful - that's grounds for divorce, but He'd prefer it if there was forgiveness and restoration instead, but recognizes that that doesn't always happen.
Granted, these truths don't solve whatever other issues a couple may be facing, but it does state God's heart clearly on the matter overall - He wants the couple to stay married. Anything that's causing one member of the marriage covenant to be or feel hurt needs to stop so that the marriage can work.
And I do believe that if there's some form of abuse going on, that could also fall under the category of marital unfaithfulness - though not sexual unfaithfulness. Each member is supposed to be doing for the other member whatever is in the other member's best interest no matter what, no ifs ands or buts, if to do nothing more than to obey Christ's command to love your neighbor as yourself. So, whatever it is that's getting between this couple you know, Joanne, needs to be dealt with and stopped. That sounds like a pat answer and in some ways it is, but it's also what every Christian is commanded to do in every situation anyway. It's just much more inconvenient for the person in a marital relationship because that relationship defines their whole life. A married person can't get away from his/her spouse and must constantly be thinking about how to do what's best for that person all the time. All their decisions have to be made based upon how those decisions will affect their spouse. That's why I honestly believe that God never intended for a majority of the people in this world to ever even get married - because it's an extremely and excruciatingly difficult thing to do!
So, anyway, I don't know if any of that helped, but that's my two cents. 
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Leviathan
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 9/9/2004 10:01 AM (GMT -6) | | We all struggle with our human nature also...
No matter how Christ-like we are we are still men and women.
Women marry a man hoping to change them... and they don't change
Men marry a woman hoping they DON'T change...and the do change | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 9/10/2004 3:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Leviathan
We all struggle with our human nature also...
No matter how Christ-like we are we are still men and women.
Women marry a man hoping to change them... and they don't change
Men marry a woman hoping they DON'T change...and the do change
Amen! I wish God always "got what He wanted" - with all my heart, but then...wait a minute. Wouldn't that be lovely? NOT! Because that would make him a dictator, and us puppets...so even with sin, and the challenges of living for Him in an imperfect world - it is worth it all. That is what Jesus thought when He went to the cross. He went "for the joy that was set before Him" (for us).
Our friends have tried, literally for years and years...years and years upon years of counselling, and gut wrenching pain, and now...relief, mixed with a deep sadness. We are not counselling them to "get on with their lives" - though that may end up being the merciful thing to do. We are still holding out the hope, which I know is real, and powerful - but which also depends on two peoples' choices, and on their willingness to make Him the first and most important relationship in their lives. I make it sound simple, like it is just a matter of discipline. I haven't "walked a mile in their shoes" either. My place is to love them, encourage them, pray for them. I do understand some of what they're experiencing. I changed - radically - and it "uncorked my husband's rowboat" so to speak, and what followed was about 2 years of intense pain and struggle in our marriage. The changes were wonderful, but when one person in a relationship goes through radical changes in their life - it changes the relationship radically. It's no longer the same, and it can't be the same again. What has made a difference for us, and continues to make a difference, is the willingness to "go after God" as individuals, to pray for each other, to listen...but most of all - to be friends, and to forgive each other's trespasses. It takes "two to tango" - actually 3 in a Christian marriage. I do not judge them. I just love them, and hope for them, and cry with them on occasion - and I hope that 5 years from now we'll be going out to supper together - just the four of us, and celebrating our marriages.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 9/11/2004 6:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
'Kay people. None of us knows exactly what's wrong in this couple's marriage so let's not get all divided on the "what if" scenarios. Let's start with what we know: 1. God created marriage and declared it good. (Oops! I almost forgot to type the letter "d" at the end of the word "good"!) 2. God considers it a sin when someone tears a married couple asunder. 3. God said that if a spouse is being sexually unfaithful - that's grounds for divorce, but He'd prefer it if there was forgiveness and restoration instead, but recognizes that that doesn't always happen.
Granted, these truths don't solve whatever other issues a couple may be facing, but it does state God's heart clearly on the matter overall - He wants the couple to stay married. Anything that's causing one member of the marriage covenant to be or feel hurt needs to stop so that the marriage can work.
And I do believe that if there's some form of abuse going on, that could also fall under the category of marital unfaithfulness - though not sexual unfaithfulness. Each member is supposed to be doing for the other member whatever is in the other member's best interest no matter what, no ifs ands or buts, if to do nothing more than to obey Christ's command to love your neighbor as yourself. So, whatever it is that's getting between this couple you know, Joanne, needs to be dealt with and stopped. That sounds like a pat answer and in some ways it is, but it's also what every Christian is commanded to do in every situation anyway. It's just much more inconvenient for the person in a marital relationship because that relationship defines their whole life. A married person can't get away from his/her spouse and must constantly be thinking about how to do what's best for that person all the time. All their decisions have to be made based upon how those decisions will affect their spouse. That's why I honestly believe that God never intended for a majority of the people in this world to ever even get married - because it's an extremely and excruciatingly difficult thing to do!
So, anyway, I don't know if any of that helped, but that's my two cents.
Tigress,
I surely agree with most of your words above. Surely, you can imagine and have known some marital situations where abuse was so awful, continual, and unrepented of that a divorce or separation was called for? I know God doesn't want these. I know He also doesn't want either party to live being continually attacked by the other. Drawing any lines here is what is difficult. My pastor asked me what I'd advise a husband whose wife beat him in the head with a golf club? I'm rather a mercy type person and I was supposing it should depend on how repentant the wife was and if the man lived through it. This is an extreme example...sadly though, physical violence is common. I wonder about more subtle abuses...the spouse never being agreeable, always finding fault, refusing to go for help, undermining the other in parental roles...How long and how deeply must the other suffer these things? Surely, after years of in depth counsel and prayer, most counselors are going to feel sure that some marriages are better off abandoned. As one wanting the mind of Chrsit on these things, I already have struggles with some that I love and counsel and I am wondering right now, if these Christian people would be better off alone.
One other thing...it seems it must be God's will for most of us to marry. I know my own drive...I would be one of those Paul said should marry for it's better than "burning". Regardless of the struggles in my marriage, the blessings of sons and daughters...both for me, for my wife, and for this society, as well as for God, far outweigh the temporary pains of marriage. These offspring are eternal. The marriage is not.
I must add that Larry Crabb's "The Marriage Builder" is a great book on the subject. I wish, though, that he had more on the in's and out's of divorce and separation.
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 9/13/2004 5:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
[quote]
Tigress,
I surely agree with most of your words above. Surely, you can imagine and have known some marital situations where abuse was so awful, continual, and unrepented of that a divorce or separation was called for? I know God doesn't want these. I know He also doesn't want either party to live being continually attacked by the other. Drawing any lines here is what is difficult. My pastor asked me what I'd advise a husband whose wife beat him in the head with a golf club? I'm rather a mercy type person and I was supposing it should depend on how repentant the wife was and if the man lived through it. This is an extreme example...sadly though, physical violence is common. I wonder about more subtle abuses...the spouse never being agreeable, always finding fault, refusing to go for help, undermining the other in parental roles...How long and how deeply must the other suffer these things? Surely, after years of in depth counsel and prayer, most counselors are going to feel sure that some marriages are better off abandoned. As one wanting the mind of Chrsit on these things, I already have struggles with some that I love and counsel and I am wondering right now, if these Christian people would be better off alone.
One other thing...it seems it must be God's will for most of us to marry. I know my own drive...I would be one of those Paul said should marry for it's better than "burning". Regardless of the struggles in my marriage, the blessings of sons and daughters...both for me, for my wife, and for this society, as well as for God, far outweigh the temporary pains of marriage. These offspring are eternal. The marriage is not.
I must add that Larry Crabb's "The Marriage Builder" is a great book on the subject. I wish, though, that he had more on the in's and out's of divorce and separation.
Barry
barryakt,
I clearly stated that where abuse is concerned, the couple should get a divorce if the abuse doesn't stop. As for all the other stuff you mentioned, that's something that is between God and the people involved.
Your statement about your need for marriage is valid and I agree that most people probably need marriage for sex but I believe that that can be a slippery slope because if you rush into marriage just because you burn, you might end up with the wrong person and both you, your spouse and your children will suffer heartache in the long run. When Paul told those who were burning to go ahead and get married, he was specifically addressing the people who already were engaged to someone that they were anticipating a marriage with. But, for those of us who aren't currently dating or engaged, I think it's wiser to learn how to be celebate. I know dozens of people in their 30's and 40's who desperately want to be married for the sex, as well as for all the other right and good reasons, but for whatever reason they haven't been able to find someone to say yes to their proposals. They burn just as much as anyone but they can really do nothing about it. That tells me that anyone is capable of remaining celebate - anyone. These people don't really want to be celebate, but they're doing it because they have to and it's the right thing to do. Anyone can do it with the Lord's help.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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