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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 9/1/2004 8:42 PM (GMT -6) |   | I've spent the last several days watching friends go through pain and misery as they struggle with whether or not they should separate. Years of untold pain and misery, painful communication, no intimacy, and a lack of friendship and respect. They've hung in there far longer than most people would that I know, so how could I judge them - no matter what choice they make?
We've spent days (overnighters) with long conversations, and prayers, and the conclusion that I'm coming to -more and more- is this: We choose out of who believe we are in Christ. Transformation is largely a result of our understanding of who we are in Him, and the choices that we make as a result of that understanding. Perhaps that is why scripture says to bring "every thought captive". Perhaps the real battlefield takes place in our mind? Any thoughts on this?
"Nite, and God Bless,
A "fellow" saboteur 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/2/2004 2:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
I've spent the last several days watching friends go through pain and misery as they struggle with whether or not they should separate. Years of untold pain and misery, painful communication, no intimacy, and a lack of friendship and respect. They've hung in there far longer than most people would that I know, so how could I judge them - no matter what choice they make?
We've spent days (overnighters) with long conversations, and prayers, and the conclusion that I'm coming to -more and more- is this: We choose out of who believe we are in Christ. Transformation is largely a result of our understanding of who we are in Him, and the choices that we make as a result of that understanding. Perhaps that is why scripture says to bring "every thought captive". Perhaps the real battlefield takes place in our mind? Any thoughts on this?
"Nite, and God Bless,
A "fellow" saboteur
It seems to me that there is a problem in that God hates divorce and that they know that they are under pressure to obey the objective commands of God. This pressure is revealing to them the extent of their own selfishness and failure to conform to the commands of God. God loves marriage. Whatever your view on guidance, it is extremely clear that God put them together for Jesus told us with certainty that God has joined them (Matt 19:6). Divorce was given because we have hardened hearts. Sin is the problem. What is the solution for sin?
I agree with you that the problem is that they have weak faith and are not believeing in Christ and His work for them. Sin is manifesting itself instead of faith. Where do we find "faith?" You have the option to encourage them to go to a calm place and seek a mystical experience for the answers they need. Give them candles and help them think of a warm fuzzy place and they can experience God and find faith in their feelings and dreams. Perhaps they need to rework their memories before they will be able to find faith and deal with their sin and inability to obey God's commands (this is not what I believe but what others have proposed).
Another approach would be to go through the scriptures, asking God to speak through them by His Holy Spirit. We know that faith comes through hearing the word of God and we believe that the scriptures are the word of God. The Gospel was given and is the only way to exchange a heart of stone for one of flesh. They both need to acknowledge and "believe" the badness of their own sins before God. This badness is made clear in the scriptures and is very clear on divorce. Whatever separation exists between them because of their actions this is nothing compared to how their actions have created an unbridgeable gulf between them and God. It is to this utter broken mess and hopeless separation that they have caused between themselves and God that God Himself comes. He didn't come in a "feeling" but with a real body that was physically beaten and killed. This is how He came. Jesus, as told to us by real men who witnessed it, came to these people who would not obey His commands regarding marriage, whose actions are not according to the expressed will of God and who cannot change themselves. Jesus came and died for them, and paid the price for their actions. He Himself became the bridge to reconcile even them to God the Father. He offers them a new heart and new desires that are according to God's commands - all they need to do is believe in what He has done for them and that He came already in a real body that suffered and died. Their gratitude for the actions of Jesus to them is a source of power to reconcile themselves to each other. If they believe in the reconciliation with the Father that Jesus has purchased with His life and confirmed its effectiveness with His resurrection, there is a path of life and hope. They cannot help forgiving each other because Jesus forgave them as a gift. If this faith is alive and growing in their hearts there will be incremental changes and life will blossom between them.
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2004 3:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Another approach would be to go through the scriptures, asking God to speak through them by His Holy Spirit. We know that faith comes through hearing the word of God and we believe that the scriptures are the word of God. The Gospel was given and is the only way to exchange a heart of stone for one of flesh. They both need to acknowledge and "believe" the badness of their own sins before God. This badness is made clear in the scriptures and is very clear on divorce. Whatever separation exists between them because of their actions this is nothing compared to how their actions have created an unbridgeable gulf between them and God. It is to this utter broken mess and hopeless separation that they have caused between themselves and God that God Himself comes. He didn't come in a "feeling" but with a real body that was physically beaten and killed. This is how He came. Jesus, as told to us by real men who witnessed it, came to these people who would not obey His commands regarding marriage, whose actions are not according to the expressed will of God and who cannot change themselves. Jesus came and died for them, and paid the price for their actions. He Himself became the bridge to reconcile even them to God the Father. He offers them a new heart and new desires that are according to God's commands - all they need to do is believe in what He has done for them and that He came already in a real body that suffered and died. Their gratitude for the actions of Jesus to them is a source of power to reconcile themselves to each other. If they believe in the reconciliation with the Father that Jesus has purchased with His life and confirmed its effectiveness with His resurrection, there is a path of life and hope. They cannot help forgiving each other because Jesus forgave them as a gift. If this faith is alive and growing in their hearts there will be incremental changes and life will blossom between them.
AMEN
Repent - Trust- Forgive - Love
Humbly repent, faith is to trust, forgave is to forgive, truth is love. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2004 3:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
yes, the sooner your friends realize how worthless and bad they are, the sooner they can.... um, realize how worthless and bad they are
that should make things better for them
once they realize how worthless and bad they are, they can start telling others how worthless and bad they are as well
Um...I’m all ears! | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2004 3:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
yes, the sooner your friends realize how worthless and bad they are, the sooner they can.... um, realize how worthless and bad they are
that should make things better for them
once they realize how worthless and bad they are, they can start telling others how worthless and bad they are as well
Um...I’m all ears!
people respond better to positive influences then negative ones, especially when the issue isn't one of physical harm
ever worked for a boss that always and only gave you negative feedback?
ever worked for a boss that mostly gave you positive feedback?
notice the difference in your response?
did you marry the girl that thought you were worthless or the girl that thought very highly of you?
piling more scorn upon two people who are struggling with their marriage and thus probably feel like failures at marriage isn't going to get a positive response, imhfo
For some reason that "imhfo" did not seem to "positive".
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2004 4:02 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
For some reason that "imhfo" did not seem to "positive".
sorry, i forget the audience
imho
by the way, it's neither positive nor negative, but emphatic
if my spouse and i were grumpy with each other, i'd look back on the positive reasons i married them and the positive times we had together, not dwell on how worthless and bad we are
Understandable, a very sensitive subject.
I’m sorry; I missed the part about calling our spouse “worthless”. Can you please point that sentence out?
I agree, we should dwell on the positives. | | Back to Top | | |
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 9/2/2004 4:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
For some reason that "imhfo" did not seem to "positive".
sorry, i forget the audience
imho
by the way, it's neither positive nor negative, but emphatic
if my spouse and i were grumpy with each other, i'd look back on the positive reasons i married them and the positive times we had together, not dwell on how worthless and bad we are
Understandable, a very sensitive subject.
I’m sorry; I missed the part about calling our spouse “worthless”. Can you please point that sentence out?
I agree, we should dwell on the positives.
"their own selfishness and failure to conform"
"Sin is the problem"
"they have weak faith and are not believeing in Christ and His work for them"
"inability to obey God's commands"
"heart of stone"
"They both need to acknowledge and "believe" the badness of their own sins before God"
"an unbridgeable gulf between them and God"
"this utter broken mess and hopeless separation that they have caused between themselves and God"
the guy's not making any general assumptions about a couple he knows nothing about?
do you think all disagreements between you and your spouse (she likes blue, you like red) are "selfishness", "failure to conform", "sin", "weak faith", "not believing in christ", "inability to obey God's commands", "heart of stone", "the badness of their own sins", "an unbridgeable gulf between them and God", etc.?
uromancer to the stars | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2004 4:14 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
do you think all disagreements between you and your spouse (she likes blue, you like red) are "selfishness", "failure to conform", "sin", "weak faith", "not believing in christ", "inability to obey God's commands", "heart of stone", "the badness of their own sins", "an unbridgeable gulf between them and God", etc.?
No, but do you really think people get divorced because of such trivial differences as their favorite color. If so, that would classify as being pretty “selfish”.
I don’t have time right now to get to deep with this. I would be happy  to hear you out on this. I’m always looking for helpful input on this very important and complicated topic. Thanks, Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 9/2/2004 4:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
do you think all disagreements between you and your spouse (she likes blue, you like red) are "selfishness", "failure to conform", "sin", "weak faith", "not believing in christ", "inability to obey God's commands", "heart of stone", "the badness of their own sins", "an unbridgeable gulf between them and God", etc.?
No, but do you really think people get divorced because of such trivial differences as their favorite color. If so, that would classify as being pretty “selfish”.
.
wow, you need an example?
dick and jane's children have grown up and moved away
dick wants to move to the coast and sail his boat
jane wants to stay where they are and watch the grandchildren grow up
is either desire "bad", "weak faith", "selfish", "failure to conform"?
no, morally neutral. dick and jane have some differences that need to be ironed out. so how do we proceed to iron them out?
realize each of them is "bad", has "weak faith", is "selfish", is "failing to conform", has an "inability to believe god's commands", has a "heart of stone", etc.?
are all disagreements and differences of opinion sin?
some are, but are all?
uromancer to the stars | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2004 4:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
dick and jane's children have grown up and moved away
dick wants to move to the coast and sail his boat
jane wants to stay where they are and watch the grandchildren grow up
is either desire "bad", "weak faith", "selfish", "failure to conform"?
no, morally neutral. dick and jane have some differences that need to be ironed out. so how do we proceed to iron them out?
realize each of them is "bad", has "weak faith", is "selfish", is "failing to conform", has an "inability to believe god's commands", has a "heart of stone", etc.?
are all disagreements and differences of opinion sin?
some are, but are all?
Do you see one being more selfish then the other?
1. I want my boat!
2. Let’s stay and help others. | | Back to Top | | |
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 9/2/2004 4:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
dick and jane's children have grown up and moved away
dick wants to move to the coast and sail his boat
jane wants to stay where they are and watch the grandchildren grow up
is either desire "bad", "weak faith", "selfish", "failure to conform"?
no, morally neutral. dick and jane have some differences that need to be ironed out. so how do we proceed to iron them out?
realize each of them is "bad", has "weak faith", is "selfish", is "failing to conform", has an "inability to believe god's commands", has a "heart of stone", etc.?
are all disagreements and differences of opinion sin?
some are, but are all?
Do you see one being more selfish then the other?
1. I want to use my boat to help others.
2. Let’s stay and help others.
not on the surface
so all differences of opinion are sin?
we're sinning with our "hearts of stone" right now
uromancer to the stars | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2004 5:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
so all differences of opinion are sin?
Of course not, if we had no differences, why would we need each other? Do you complete your self or does the Triune love of God and your spouse make you whole? | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2004 5:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sometimesisquint
That's a relative concept. You assume that simply staying closer to family is "helping others". I've known and witnessed similar scenarios where the selfishness is apparent on both sides or even on the supposed more concerned and caring individual.
I suppose most assumptions are relative. Are all of our good deeds relative. Do we all have interior motives, did Mother Teresa help others because it made “her” feel relatively good inside?
P.S. What is the good kind of "guilt"? The responsibility and awareness of our own wrongdoings, maybe? | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/2/2004 6:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
P.S. What is the good kind of "guilt"? The responsibility and awareness of our own wrongdoings, maybe?
1. You did this specific thing wrong and need to repent of it. The good kind of guilt. specific and solvable
2. You are bad. Period. The bad kind of guilt. nebulous, generic, vague and unsolvable, always available as a blunt hammer to be used against you by others
You can repent and turn from the good kind, the bad kind condemns you for life.
Guess which one the Holy Spirit uses.
Guess which one the accuser of the saints uses.
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2004 6:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
P.S. What is the good kind of "guilt"? The responsibility and awareness of our own wrongdoings, maybe?
1. You did this specific thing wrong and need to repent of it. The good kind of guilt. specific and solvable
2. You are bad. Period. The bad kind of guilt. nebulous, generic, vague and unsolvable, always available as a blunt hammer to be used against you by others
You can repent and turn from the good kind, the bad kind condemns you for life.
Guess which one the Holy Spirit uses.
Guess which one the accuser of the saints uses.
Change a couple of “you”s to “I”s and by George I think you’ve got it, Scotty. 
The confusion always seems to stem from the right reflection we don’t’ see in the mirror.
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/2/2004 6:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Change a couple of “you”s to “I”s and by George I think you’ve got it, Scotty.
The confusion always seems to stem from the right reflection we don’t’ see in the mirror.
Change ewes to eyes?
Isn't that "transmogrification"? 
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2004 6:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Change a couple of “you”s to “I”s and by George I think you’ve got it, Scotty.
The confusion always seems to stem from the right reflection we don’t’ see in the mirror.
Change ewes to eyes?
Isn't that "transmogrification"?
The garden always seems greener on the other side. Before we jump backwards over the stick, we should check our pockets for weeds.
P.S. Can a ewe  save a marriage? | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/2/2004 7:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
The garden always seems greener on the other side. Before we jump backwards over the stick, we should check our pockets for weeds.
Pity the paraplegic who wants to jump over the stick with someone, but can't...... 
quote:
P.S. Can a ewe save a marriage?
Big softball floating in the air, I'll pass on it
<STEE_RIKE>
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2004 7:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Pity the paraplegic who wants to jump over the stick with someone, but can't......
I hear down south they have a cure for someone that wants to, but just can't quite jump over the stick and get married. I think they call the cure a shotgun!
P.S. Good eye. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/2/2004 8:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Pity the paraplegic who wants to jump over the stick with someone, but can't......
I hear down south they have a cure for someone that wants to, but just can't quite jump over the stick and get married. I think they call the cure a shotgun!
"We had a formal wedding, white shotguns."
-Hank Penny, Hillbilly Bebop
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/2/2004 8:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Pity the paraplegic who wants to jump over the stick with someone, but can't......
I hear down south they have a cure for someone that wants to, but just can't quite jump over the stick and get married. I think they call the cure a shotgun!
"We had a formal wedding, white shotguns."
-Hank Penny, Hillbilly Bebop
Alllllllllrighteeee then….you win. You made me laugh.
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