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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Ethics, etc. > (No Subject)
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 10/23/2004 8:32 PM (GMT -6) |   | Here's an ethics question for you. I would love your feedback. I am involved in a 5 couple pastoral team. Lately we've been talking about the importance of transparency about our lives, and I agree. As leaders we should be in a place where we are not afraid to be transparent about our lives. Their is healing in that, and it often takes away a foothood of the enemy...BUT...what do you believe about confidentiality in ministry? We are encouraged to be transparent, but there are mixed views on the meaning of confidentiality.
Some say that it means: You need to trust me, that I will handle what you share with me appropriately.
Some believe that it is fine to encourage people to come to an elder in the church - to talk about another elder (confidentially)
Some believe that confidentiality is as it is for counsellors, or professionals who are sworn to confidentiality - a sacred trust - unless there is a bonafide legal reason to disclose what is shared (ie: child abuse, or in the case of a minor who may be putting himself at risk, or others at risk).
What do you believe about this, and why?
Thanks,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/24/2004 2:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Here's an ethics question for you. I would love your feedback. I am involved in a 5 couple pastoral team. Lately we've been talking about the importance of transparency about our lives, and I agree. As leaders we should be in a place where we are not afraid to be transparent about our lives. Their is healing in that, and it often takes away a foothood of the enemy...BUT...what do you believe about confidentiality in ministry? We are encouraged to be transparent, but there are mixed views on the meaning of confidentiality.
Some say that it means: You need to trust me, that I will handle what you share with me appropriately.
Some believe that it is fine to encourage people to come to an elder in the church - to talk about another elder (confidentially)
Some believe that confidentiality is as it is for counsellors, or professionals who are sworn to confidentiality - a sacred trust - unless there is a bonafide legal reason to disclose what is shared (ie: child abuse, or in the case of a minor who may be putting himself at risk, or others at risk).
What do you believe about this, and why?
Thanks,
Jo-Anne
I am a refugee from a system where abuse of authority and leader's escape from accountability for their actions happened under the guise of "confidentiality." I am certain that there is a place for confidential, the protection of the sheep. I am extremely cautious when this becomes an excuse or protection for the leaders. I believe that an aspect of walking in the light involves being open as a congregation, not just among leadership.
quote:
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 10/25/2004 6:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
Just a thought...
If your going to do the work of a counsellor, play by the rules of a counsellor.
If your going to do the work of an elder, play by those rules.
I would suggest that you don't confuse the two jobs. A church elder leads by example how to live a life pleasing to God, they shouldn't be playing counsellor.
It's like this... A man enlisted a guide to show him how to get from New York to California. Along the way, the man became hungry, so the guide led him to a diner. That night, the man became sleepy, so the guide led him to a motel. This man completed his journey.
Another man also chose a guide and started the journey. After a while the man became hungry and the guide fixed him lunch. That night when the man became sleepy the guide built a room and they slept. After a short time the guide became tired trying to carry the burden and they both failed to complete the journey.
peace, don
Hi Don,
I do see what you are saying. There are counsellors, though few and far between, and definitely not enough for churches. I believe, as Larry Crabb suggests, that most healing takes place within the context of a loving community. I myself was involved in prayer counselling a couple of years ago, and it was an instrument used by God to radically change my life.
Of the five couples, my husband and I are pastoral care. Counselling, and practical aspects of ministry are part of that care. Confidentiality is essential. Sometimes though, as part of a leadership team, it is like walking a tightrope. Another couple on the team are actually counselors, but it is impossible to defer all counselling to them. The third couple (head elder and his wife) have administrative, teaching gifts, the fourth couple is over worship in the church, and a fifth leads in community care (our physical community in the city), and also sheperding. We have a multiplicity of leaders for a very small church (about a hundred people), but our vision goes beyond the church.
We've discussed transparency in leadership, ideally in the body, and confidentiality. We are all in agreement when it comes to transparency. It is confidentiality that gets dicy. A counsellor's role in confidentiality is clear. But as leaders we constantly deal with people's hurts, and do not have the luxury of referring everyone to a counsellor. Even if we did, I don't believe that is always necessary, or even necessarily scriptural.
I appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 10/27/2004 8:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
Another thought...
The only reason I can see for confidentiality is the belief that those around us do not love us.
Sad.
peace, don
Don,
Do you really believe that all those around you - love you? I've seen so many Christians crushed because they've shared sensitive things with their brothers and sisters in Christ. They took a step of faith, and were transparent, in the hopes that there would be healing, and comfort, but instead there was gossip, and harsh judgement. Now, that doesn't happen all the time, but churches are full of people who do not love the way Christ loves us...not even close.
People need to be able to trust those who shepherd them. I'm not talking about keeping things hidden that need to be exposed and healed, but handling things with sensitivity, and recognizing that everyone does not need to know.
I guess I've see way too much pain, and I believe the reason a lot of marriages fall apart when "we didn't know anything was wrong" is because people are too fearful to share, to be vulnerable. I've been vulnerable as a leader, and I would love to think that community can actually look like Larry Crabb describes it. I'm a dreamer, and I still have that dream that it will be - one day.
Perhaps it will begin with church leadership being transparent, and showing by example the response that is needed when others are transparent with their lives.
Don...I'm a lovable person, but everyone doesn't love me.
God BLess,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/27/2004 9:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Kublai Khan
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Don...I'm a lovable person, but everyone doesn't love me.
get a dog, unconditional <love?> something, anyways
Dogs come with crap as well. Ask Laika.
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 10/29/2004 11:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
Another thought...
The only reason I can see for confidentiality is the belief sad fact that those around us do not love us.
This is why we don't convince the world that Jesus makes any difference. We don't love one another and they take notice.
Yes, we have a small circle that we can bring in, but that's no different than the world.
peace, don
Don,
Amen, and Lord - may it begin with me.
'Nite and God Bless you. Thank you for your thoughts.
Jo-Anne
I hate computers. I just wrote for 20 minutes and hit the wrong key and it was "POOF' GONE!
What i had tried to say was I have been badly burned on both sides of this deal. I have been the counselor, sharing with another what I now see I should not have. I have been the counselee too, hearing later that what I totally thought would be kept "in house" was spouted out somewhere else and I was very damaged.
I have been told things about an elder or pastor in confidence. I went to the one charged and got an earful. I mean I felt as though I had been transported to another universe...the stories were soooo different.
I learned in these things that Matt 18 has much wisdom. If I hear someone having a problem with an elder here locally, I try not to even allow them to tell me...I say you go to him yourself. It seems so often the truth is not what that person has heard, but something far different. And I have done this. I have approached the elder to simply ask...what is going on, sir?
Now in the home, I think confidentiality is hard to exactly define. One example: my wife goes to a holiday with the rest of my family...brothers and their kids, my folks and their siblings...and later she has many offenses from the day. Can I tell my family anything? Or suppose my wife is considering leaving me...can I tell my family anything? I know she'd hate to have them "in the Know" yet I may be feeling that they should know. Just how private should we keep our married troubles?
I have also had ones I thought loved me and knew better, go and tell my wife things I'd never, ever tell her. I had thought we were close and knew better. So here, I felt the pain of one confiding in another, and hearing later that our talk was NOT closed.
I do think every person needs another who will love them and hear them and not react in a parental way when hearing questionable or sinful behavior or thoughts.
In general, the experience I've had for 28 years in church living is that most people are not safe to confide in. I myself am a not a perfect confidant..but believe I am gaining in maturity. The counselor who is tempted to reveal these private things, I think often has ulterior motives that are wrong. THEY may want to be more esteemed than the one counseled..and revealing secret things may bring up thier esteem level, at least among some.
I have had issues even with family on how they want me to not say anything, at all, about problems we have in the family. I think this pressure has been harmful. I think too, that there is a certain amount of privacy all families need to protect.
There seems to be no cut and dried, simple answers.
Love this kind of real discussion.
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 10/29/2004 2:39 PM (GMT -6) | |
I hate computers. I just wrote for 20 minutes and hit the wrong key and it was "POOF' GONE!
What i had tried to say was I have been badly burned on both sides of this deal. I have been the counselor, sharing with another what I now see I should not have. I have been the counselee too, hearing later that what I totally thought would be kept "in house" was spouted out somewhere else and I was very damaged.
I have been told things about an elder or pastor in confidence. I went to the one charged and got an earful. I mean I felt as though I had been transported to another universe...the stories were soooo different.
I learned in these things that Matt 18 has much wisdom. If I hear someone having a problem with an elder here locally, I try not to even allow them to tell me...I say you go to him yourself. It seems so often the truth is not what that person has heard, but something far different. And I have done this. I have approached the elder to simply ask...what is going on, sir?
Now in the home, I think confidentiality is hard to exactly define. One example: my wife goes to a holiday with the rest of my family...brothers and their kids, my folks and their siblings...and later she has many offenses from the day. Can I tell my family anything? Or suppose my wife is considering leaving me...can I tell my family anything? I know she'd hate to have them "in the Know" yet I may be feeling that they should know. Just how private should we keep our married troubles?
I have also had ones I thought loved me and knew better, go and tell my wife things I'd never, ever tell her. I had thought we were close and knew better. So here, I felt the pain of one confiding in another, and hearing later that our talk was NOT closed.
I do think every person needs another who will love them and hear them and not react in a parental way when hearing questionable or sinful behavior or thoughts.
In general, the experience I've had for 28 years in church living is that most people are not safe to confide in. I myself am a not a perfect confidant..but believe I am gaining in maturity. The counselor who is tempted to reveal these private things, I think often has ulterior motives that are wrong. THEY may want to be more esteemed than the one counseled..and revealing secret things may bring up thier esteem level, at least among some.
I have had issues even with family on how they want me to not say anything, at all, about problems we have in the family. I think this pressure has been harmful. I think too, that there is a certain amount of privacy all families need to protect.
There seems to be no cut and dried, simple answers.
Love this kind of real discussion.
Barry
I love computers! The computer has opened up a whole new world for me! I've decided to pursue a career in editing, and eventually hope to get manuscripts by Christians everywhere! (Well...maybe not everywhere, but who knows! He's the God of the possible right?)
Anyway, a bit off topic. I hear what you're saying Barry. As much as I love Larry Crabb (his writing), and am an absolute idealist (some might say dreamer) when it comes to community - I fear that what you say is right. The encouraging thing is that there are believers out there (treasures) who can keep a confidence. I want to be that kind of believer. I want to be transparent with those I can be transparent with, and be the kind of friend who goes to the grave with confidences. How many hurting people long for someone to share their deepest burdens with?
There are too few treasures out there in Christian leadership, too few fragrant aromas, but I also know that He is passionate about us, as imperfect as we are with Him, and with each other.
We are to love each other, as evidence that we are His disciples - so "the world may know." Quite a task, but if we walk in the light, we should be shining examples of that kind of love. Perhaps we do not walk enough in the light? Could that be it? We can philosophize, and debate theology, and "give a cup of water in Jesus' name, but still spend too little time walking in the light. The most righteous man on earth would have been tossed out on his ear (or at least hotly debated  on this site. He was not an open theist. He might have even been viewed as a Calvinist (heaven forbid  )! Nothing he believed made him righteous. The law did not make him righteous. But, he had one thing that counted. He had an honest heart. If you have nothing else, I pray that you have an honest heart.
Obviously from the transparency of your posts Barry - you have an honest heart. It is not mere philosophy, or religiosity, but just plain and simple, and wonderful transparency. That makes you vulnerable, but it also makes you adorable to God, and a shining example for your brothers and sisters in Christ.
Does any of this solve the problem of transparency, and confidentiality? Not really. But I find that the closer I draw to Him, the less it matters to me what others say about me. Where it upsets me is where others get hurt.
I'm not thick-skinned, so this is surprising to me. Perhaps I have just finally come to the place in my life where what He thinks of me matters more than what others think. So I'll keep tryng to be transparent (but not so transparent on this board) with those that I know are "treasures" in this world.
God help me be a treasure!
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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