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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Ethics, etc. > (No Subject)
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 12/1/2004 3:49 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 12/1/2004 7:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Great post Jo-Anne.
I think that we have relativized much so that we no longer deal with issues in the context of "sin" but of ethics. I believe that Christians have liberty where God has not defined and action/inaction sin. I have ethical dilemmas but I find them where I have 2 bad choices, and I am forced to choose. The ethincs concept...it deserves more discussion.
Regarding discipleship, I think that programs are often areas of liberty and training in life. I think that discipleship itself would be better understood if we approached it through the concept of "means of grace." The concept is that God has given defined means of grace both for initial salvation and growing in that salvation (sanctification). If we practice these means we will grow in grace. I thnk that John's concept of a small group of people fellowshipping arounf the apostle's teaching is one of them. Look up the concept (there is much on it) and it may be helpful.
I like the idea of cell groups. We haven't put it into practice yet (formally) as a church, though I've been involved in one elsewhere in the past.
Sometimes I think we do as John has said, we confuse activity with spirituality. When we do this we short change ourselves, and others. We may even contribute to the struggle of believers by not emphasizing relationship with the Father,and replacing this with activity. Our worth cannot come from activity. Works need to flow out of relationship. I believe in the belong, believe, behave model of discipleship. Too often it's believe, behave and then belong, which defeats believers.
Thanks for chiming in here Spen. I appreciate your insights.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 12/3/2004 11:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
The church I used to attend started charging for their counseling services, how's that for programs.
For a fee you can attend their "bible school". ( since they disbanded the sunday school years ago this is the only source of teaching )
peace, don
Mighty Don,
While it would be a "negative" to sell the gospel for those who sold it (i.e. like those who preached it from bad motives in Phil 1), if it were really the true gospel those that bought it would be blessed. I think that the point of Jo-Anne is that there are "substitutes" that are being offered instead of the real "means of grace." She called it "activity" that is substituted for the real. I think that what is worse is that we charge for "counseling" that is not the real means of grace. Psychology may ease pain and give temporal comfort, like giving food, but it isn't the gospel and doesn't offer eternal life. Going to hell in less pain and well fed seems a poor offering to sell.
If people "must" sell something, I wish it would be the gospel.
Recently my husband suggested that we might pay people to teach Sunday school...now that would be a sad state. I think that activity for acitivity's sake, is one of the enemy's greatest ploys. He can't have our eternal soul, but he can ruin what we have here, and discourage us from sharing it with others. He can cause us to "lose heart"...I know...I've been there.
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 12/4/2004 5:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Jo-Anne,
It seems to me that people are ready to invest in what they actually believe to be valuable. I think that this is consistent with 1 John 4:1. A reason that people are not asking to teach Bible school is that they do not consider it as "central" or important as what they really want to be doing. In my circles the more important consisted of forming "worship bands" and "drama teams" and "prophetic intercessor teams" (none of this necessarily "sin) that would fight back the kingdom of Satan. This is what was confessed and Sunday school was given to the "servers" on the bottom of the heap. If the curriculum of Sunday school is the Bible and the gospel, then we should have those wanting to teach it if we train them right and give the proper confession ourselves because we consider it valuable.
The suggestion to pay Sunday school teachers came as a result of discouragement. I think we get boxed in at times, and don't see that teaching can happen in a number of ways, and it is easier to want to jump in with both feet, rather than pray and see what fits our particular group of people, what the needs are, where God is at work. Bible study is critical, but how it happens is not so critical. I'm treading on thin ice here, I know. I come from a strong Baptist heritage, and Bible study was foundational to growth. I personally don't think we are equipping new believers with the most important "tool" - one that will help them cultivate their relationship with Jesus Christ. We are great at "worship." It seems to be our focus. We have a wonderful worship team (and I'm not just saying that because I'm on it!  ). Sunday morning is a great time of praise, and sharing, and of course some teaching takes place during the message...but there is no interactive Bible study. I think we're starting to realize that it needs to happen, but perhaps it doesn't need to happen the traditional way. Our services already go from 10:00 to 12:00. Any ideas?
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 12/7/2004 12:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Jo-Anne,
It seems to me that people are ready to invest in what they actually believe to be valuable. I think that this is consistent with 1 John 4:1. A reason that people are not asking to teach Bible school is that they do not consider it as "central" or important as what they really want to be doing. In my circles the more important consisted of forming "worship bands" and "drama teams" and "prophetic intercessor teams" (none of this necessarily "sin) that would fight back the kingdom of Satan. This is what was confessed and Sunday school was given to the "servers" on the bottom of the heap. If the curriculum of Sunday school is the Bible and the gospel, then we should have those wanting to teach it if we train them right and give the proper confession ourselves because we consider it valuable.
The suggestion to pay Sunday school teachers came as a result of discouragement. I think we get boxed in at times, and don't see that teaching can happen in a number of ways, and it is easier to want to jump in with both feet, rather than pray and see what fits our particular group of people, what the needs are, where God is at work. Bible study is critical, but how it happens is not so critical. I'm treading on thin ice here, I know. I come from a strong Baptist heritage, and Bible study was foundational to growth. I personally don't think we are equipping new believers with the most important "tool" - one that will help them cultivate their relationship with Jesus Christ. We are great at "worship." It seems to be our focus. We have a wonderful worship team (and I'm not just saying that because I'm on it! ). Sunday morning is a great time of praise, and sharing, and of course some teaching takes place during the message...but there is no interactive Bible study. I think we're starting to realize that it needs to happen, but perhaps it doesn't need to happen the traditional way. Our services already go from 10:00 to 12:00. Any ideas?
Hey Jo-Anne and Spen and ...
I so identify with many things you all are saying. My church too needs more bible-study and understanding. I think some of the very best I've had has been in small group settings. Our church has had a couple 6-8week seesions like this, but not like the ones I'm remembering. I love the teaching books on this subject by Ted Haggard and Karen Hurston ( she came to my church once and is awesome) also John Eldredge. I am thinking of the kind of group that is made up of the truly thirsty, as well as the very patient, with a format and plan that gives an idea of what to expect at the outset. It does seem that much of what we share here has the flavor of what I'd love in a small group. It does seem like pastors often have problems with small groups as they are often breeding grounds for dissentors and church starters...but, I think the benefits can be so good. My present church was born in a small group setting...one not started by any particular church but just a group of men meeting weekly to share praise, needs, and the Word!
Love to All,
BArry
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 1/6/2005 3:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jo-Anne and everyone,
I just read this section and thought I'd just toss out the ideas I have.
Jo-Anne, I definitely agree with what you wrote about the problems of just plugging people into programs, thinking: it's all about "getting connected" or "plugged in". And this is just my 2c as well; there unfortunately is not a lot of emphasis on true discipleship in most churches (anymore?)... and of course, I don't believe it's at all intentional. But here is an example of a "house-church" that a couple of friends are in:
The house-church actually meets in the pastor's house and everyone stays there all day. Most are too small to really have music every Sunday, but they still have "worship" time, which starts around 10am. (They can come early for breakfast.) For this, individual people simply bring whatever they have to offer to the Lord. (We visited one of their larger group meetings, called a "collective"... when a house-church starts getting too big, they divide into two house-churches. The pastor mentors a group of "elders" to share in teaching, so when a house-church divides, they are fully equipped to lead the house-church, and they in turn mentor others to become elders. To keep in contact, every month, all house-churches get together for a "collective", a larger meeting led by the main pastor during another time in the week. Anyway, here we had a chance to see what they typically do for worship.) People can bring whatever they want for worship (reading a poem, painting a picture, dancing, bringing pomegranate jelly they made by hand, etc.) explaining to the others what is being presented. If someone wants to draw something beautiful for the Lord, he can, even if he can only draw stick-figures -- it's all about the heart, not the product, humbling oneself before God. This stuff was really humbling to me. It's just hard to explain-- kinda like "ya had to be there". Weekly, the pastor writes a Bible study and posts it on the internet for the people to use in studying the Bible every day. On Sunday, everyone comes to house-church and discusses what was learned (like a typical Bible study). Afterward, they stay and socialize for as long as they want...they eat lunch, play with the kids, watch a movie, discuss other issues, etc. The last people leave around 5:00pm or so. Anyone can come. The house-church becomes like a family. They all keep in close contact throughout the week. They also do various outreaches, such as sponsoring other families, homeless outreaches, etc. In these house-churches, it seems to have strong mentoring and outreaches, but people don't become isolated from the rest of the world (like in cults).
(This next part is just an IMO:) Unfortunately, it seems like many pastors start becoming the "CEO" instead of being the pastor. (That doesn't seem to be happening with the house-church my friends go to). He has to become the delegator of responsibilities (the employer), the main bill payor, the speaker, the decider of church programs, the reason people go to that particular church. I think this puts way too much burden on the pastor in having to put on too many hats, drawing the pastor away from what he originally wanted to do...to spread the Good News, to teach, and to set people on fire for the Lord (metaphorically speaking, of course. ) I also think it's the fault of our "entertaining ourselves to death" culture (and I'm very guilty of this too) because most church-attendees expect the pastor and the small (comparatively) group of elders/leaders to do all the work. Now when church is not exciting or people believe they're "not being fed anymore", they leave. I don't think that we were designed to be this transient, but originally designed for lifetime fellowship.
Anyway, that's just my 2c 
Oh... also about paying sunday school teachers... I think that could be also a result of this: when things are free, people may be less compelled to stay/attend class and may not regard the class as highly.
(I hope this doesn't offend anyone... sometimes I just have strong opinions, esp. re: things very important and dear to me.) | | Back to Top | | |
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