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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Ethics, etc. > (No Subject)
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 1/27/2006 1:00 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Been trying to think about what Joy is, what gives is, whhy it gives it, why it should give it...all that sort of thing. Any thoughts? | | Back to Top | | |
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 1/30/2006 2:23 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Hmm... good question. Sometimes I get glimpses of it, and oftentimes I forget what those glimpses were like once they've passed. But regarding the times I do remember of what Joy is, well, here's my thought of the day...
It's just those glimpses of what heaven is truly like, what it's like to be in God's presence, enraptured in pure True Love, and where "my cup runneth over". At this point, I think that Joy is something I've never fully experienced at its true height- sure I've imagined it. But even so, I think that ultimately Joy is in the giving... I think that's how we've been designed. The times when I've truly given God my all (which is much, much less often than I'd like to admit) is when I've felt that "cup running over".
Wonder why kids are so addicted to IPODs? (Perhaps this results from being a "musician" of sorts...) I think that God's given us (i.e. all humans) music to help facilitate that connection to His Joy, in order to get a taste of what ultimate Joy could be like. But out of all the music I've heard, as U2 said so well, I still haven't found what I'm looking for.
So to answer some of your questions... my guess is, God's given us those tastes of Joy to draw us closer to Him.
[As Bill and Ted approach Socrates]:
Bill: "Yo Ted, say something profound, dude."
Ted: "Oh, yeah. Right. All we are...is dust in the wind dude."
Bill: ..."Dust".... "Wind" ... "Duuuude".
Socrates: (gasping in awe) "Like sands through the hour glass, so are the days of our lives."Post Edited (Violin for God) : 1/30/2006 1:26:13 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 2/1/2006 3:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Nope, nope, nope...
I gotta stand my ground here ~
It's all about U2. Achtung, Baby. (Any music group that uses 2+ languages in a quasi-sentence is numero uno in my book!)
Yes, it's late. I just had to respond with a little bit of humor.
[As Bill and Ted approach Socrates]:
Bill: "Yo Ted, say something profound, dude."
Ted: "Oh, yeah. Right. All we are...is dust in the wind dude."
Bill: ..."Dust".... "Wind" ... "Duuuude".
Socrates: (gasping in awe) "Like sands through the hour glass, so are the days of our lives." | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/1/2006 11:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Let's use Naomi Wolf's experience here. (thanks, Brandon)
www.sundayherald.com/53663
Listen to her words...
“I was completely dumbfounded but I actually had this vision of … of Jesus, and I’m sure it was Jesus.” Anticipating a raised eyebrow, she adds quickly: “But it wasn’t this crazy theological thing; it was just this figure who was the most perfected human being – full of light and full of love. And completely accessible. Any of us could be like that. There was light coming out of him holographically, simply because he was unclouded. But any of us could become that as human beings.”
This was very telling...
“I absolutely believe in divine providence now, absolutely believe God totally cares about every single one of us intimately, that we’re not alone, that we’re surrounded by love. That everything is OK.”
Now, practically speaking, does it even MATTER whether or not her experience with "Jesus" was an actual occurance or not? Nope. The point is the here INTERPRETATION of her experience gave her warrant to believe what she does.
The seemingly immense amount of peace and purpose that she has is LINKED to her belief in this being of overwhelming love. Her new absolute.
“ I am not going to be in the closet about this any more. I’m on a spiritual path, I answer to a higher authority,”
I really wonder do we not see how obvious it is how psychologically complex religious experience and belief REALLY are...anyways...
There is probably NOTHING you could do or say to get her to disbelieve her experience. Moreover, the existential kudos and JOY that she's getting from it will likely insure that this will be at least somewhat enduring. Of course later she have to do some theological tinkering...like we ALL do...to maintain the coherency of her belief with what reality lays on her front door. But she has the MOTIVATION to do the interpretational gymnastics now...whereas before she didn't.
Sound familiar?
Anyways...just more on joy...
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/1/2006 12:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
I know this has NOTHING to do with "joy" and it should be on the other thread where this link is, but Meph Man do you think it is concieveable that God would give her a vision such as sending her in another direction thus decieving her? Mind you, this may or may not kill the joy but if it did give her more joy, certainly it would reinforce her pathway in another direction right? This was the response to the question I was looking for on the other thread.
I think I understand the question...let's see.
If God does all that God can, including working with screwed-up patterns of thought, wouldn't it be in the activity for God to work WITHIN the realm false beliefs (or plausibility schemes) of persons to draw them CLOSER to truth than they were before? It seems so to me.
This is why I feel it's important to talk about how God USES fallen aspects of this world for God's purposes...INCLUDING certain empowered LIES!
Could God give a lapsed Catholic on the verge of suicide a vision of Mary holding the baby Jesus...in order to bring him closer to where God wants to be?
Could God give a Muslim who is on the verge of complete atheism an experience with the Koran that convinces the person of the reality of a gracious God?
I think so.
If we say that God can use fallen systems for divine purposes, I sure don't see why we can't say that God can use UNTRUTHS towards God's own ends.
And we didn't even go into the LYING SPIRIT that God sent (or allowed, however you want to play it) for his own purposes. (1 Kings 22)!
Hmmm...
But let's get deep. If this is the case, doesn't this make things even MORE AMBIGUOUS as far as what's definitely God and and what's NOT God?
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/1/2006 12:38 PM (GMT -6) | | And let me pre-empt something. Some people will be like...
HEY, dude. God can't lie. The bible says so!
I won't even go into the problems with that. Let's just assume that as being fact, ok?
Ok. God can't lie. But scripture shows us that God can use people who DO lie...and that God can use people's OWN BELIEVED lies...and that God can bring DELUSIONS UPON people.
Even the most hardcore biblicist couldn't deny this.
Unfortunately, the idea of "conspiracy" doesn't apply to God. Hell, you see how much problem we have with the friggin word "complicity"!! Sheesh...
So...just because God cannot tell a lie...doesn't mean that God doesn't USE untruths in some ways significantly in God's working in the world.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 2/1/2006 5:31 PM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...
Now, practically speaking, does it even MATTER whether or not her experience with "Jesus" was an actual occurance or not? Nope. The point is the here INTERPRETATION of her experience gave her warrant to believe what she does. . . . There is probably NOTHING you could do or say to get her to disbelieve her experience.
I understand and accept that our subjective selves access objective reality in a mediated way. However... you know what I'm going to say, don't you? Beliefs that are formed in a properly basic way are as reliable as they come; it would be epistemically IMPROPER for her to doubt these beliefs.
In properly basic beliefs, the interpretive layer between the self and reality is very thin.
Post Edited (Corey) : 2/1/2006 5:49:30 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 2/3/2006 6:40 AM (GMT -6) | | | Oh wow - last time I looked at this thread it had no responses and now there are hundreds. I shall have to read it all. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 2/3/2006 6:24 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Corey or Meph Man, what sayest thou to the scripture that says:
12 But I will continue to do what I am doing, in order to cut off the opportunity of those who want an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in what they are boasting about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself is disguised as an angel of light. 15 So it is no great thing if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their destiny will be according to their works.
Sorry to high jack this thread but this is something that I've been pondering for some time now. D? This is why I asked a little bit of more info on this issue of God actually lying.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 2/3/2006 5:29:37 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/3/2006 6:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
Corey or Meph Man, what sayest thou to the scripture that says:
12 But I will continue to do what I am doing, in order to cut off the opportunity of those who want an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in what they are boasting about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself is disguised as an angel of light. 15 So it is no great thing if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their destiny will be according to their works.
Sorry to high jack this thread but this is something that I've been pondering for some time now. D? This is why I asked a little bit of more info on this issue of God actually lying.
I need some more clarity on what you are looking for, Brandon. I'm not getting it, I think.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/3/2006 6:49 PM (GMT -6) | | But if you think about it...you could have someone supposedly saying all the right stuff including Jesus being Lord...and being deceived. Isn't that partly what Matthew 7 talks about?
TOM! Doesn't that Bible saaaaaay..."I never knew yaaaa"
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/3/2006 6:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Resynopsizing. Joy comes from certain interpretations of experiences that have a certain positive aesthetic nature. These interpretations do NOT have to align totally with reality.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/3/2006 6:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
So you are simply positing the possibility of God using such an ambiguous experience. Well then, how does THAT help?
How does it help what?
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 2/3/2006 7:00 PM (GMT -6) | | How does it help that God would use an AMBIGUOUS experience to bring people to himself with the real possibility of genuine deception, not to mention that you say that God could bring delusions on his creatures, how does this help in bringing that person to himself? Just asking for clarity.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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