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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 8/7/2008 7:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | |
For anyone who cares...
"...freely obedient..."
Let everyone be persuaded in their own minds. For real...
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Post Edited (Love's Child) : 8/7/2008 7:05:15 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 8/7/2008 7:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | |
http://www.divinewill.org/Church%20and%20Saints%20-%20St.%20Maximos%20-%20Deification.htm
St Maximos the Confessor On Deification
The introduction on St. Maximus and the quotes are from Volume II of the PHILOKALIA as translated and edited by G.E.H. Palmer, Philip Sherrard, and Kallistos Ware and published by Faber and Faber.
The extreme importance of St Maximos the Confessor (580-662) for the Orthodox spiritual tradition is indicated by the fact that no other writer is assigned so much space in the Philokalia. A member of the aristocracy, after receiving an elaborate education St. Maximos served at first in the civil service, perhaps as secretary to the Emperor Heraklios. Around 614 he became a monk at the monastery of Philippikos in Chrysopolis (Scutari), close to Constantinople, subsequently moving to another monastery not far distant at Cyzikos (Erdek). In 626, at the time of the Persian invasion, he fled to Crete and eventually to Africa, where he remained for some years. From 633-4 onwards he played a leading part in opposing the heresies of Monoenergism and Monotheletism, and because of this he was arrested in 653 by the imperial authorities, brought to Constantinople for trial, and sent into exile. Further trials and condemnations followed, the last being at Constantinople in 662, after which he was flogged, his tongue was plucked out and right hand cut off. He died soon afterwards as an exile in the Caucasus. His memorial is observed in the Orthodox Church on 21 January, and also on the day of his death, 13 August. In his numerous writings St. Maximos discusses almost all aspects of Christian truth, including the interpretation of Scripture, the doctrine of the incarnation, ascetic practice, and the Divine Liturgy. He insists upon the close link between dogma and prayer. When he opposed Monotheletism, this was not because of some technicality, but because such a view subverted the understanding of the full reality of man's salvation and deification in Christ. The Monotheletes wished to reconcile the supporters of the Council of Chalcedon (451), who ascribed two natures to the incarnate Christ, with the Monophysites, who believed that He has only one nature; and so they proposed as a compromise the theory that Christ has two natures, the one divine and the other human, but only a single will. Against this St. Maximos maintained that human nature without a human will is an unreal abstraction: if Christ does not have a human will as well as a divine will, He is not truly man; and if He is not truly man, the Christian message of salvation is rendered void. What we see in Christ our Saviour is precisely a human will, genuinely free yet held in unwavering obedience to His divine will; and it is by virtue of this voluntary co-operation of manhood with divinity in Christ, which restored the integrity of human nature, that we are enabled to make our own will freely obedient to the will of God and so attain salvation. St. Maximos' teaching was confirmed after his death by the Sixth Ecumenical Council, meeting at Constantinople in 680-1.
"God made us so that we might become 'partakers of the divine nature' (2 Pet. 1:4) and sharers in His eternity, and so that we might come to be like Him (cf. 1 John 3:2) through deification by grace. It is through deification that all things are reconstituted and achieve their permanence; and it is for its sake that what is not is brought into being and given existence." p. 173
"A sure warrant for looking forward with hope to deification of human nature is provided by the incarnation of God, which makes man god to the same degree as God Himself became man. For it is clear that He who became man without sin (cf. Heb. 4:15) will divinize human nature without changing it into the divine nature, and will raise it up for His own sake to the same degree as He lowered Himself for man's sake. This is what St. Paul teaches mystically when he says, '…that in the ages to come He might display the overflowing richness of His grace' (Eph. 2:7). p. 178
"Deification, briefly, is the encompassing and fulfilment of all times and ages, and of all that exists in either. This encompassing and fulfilment is the union, in the person granted salvation, of his real authentic origin with his real authentic consummation. This union presupposes a transcending of all that by nature is essentially limited by an origin and a consummation. Such transcendence is effected by the almighty and more than powerful energy of God, acting in a direct and infinite manner in the person found worthy of this transcendence. The action of this divine energy bestows a more than ineffable pleasure and joy on him in whom the unutterable and unfathomable union with the divine is accomplished. This, in the nature of things, cannot be perceived, conceived or expressed." p. 240
"The Lord gave clear evidence of His supreme power in what He endured from hostile forces when He endowed human nature with an incorruptible form of generation. For through His passion He conferred dispassion, through suffering repose, and through death eternal life. By His privations in the flesh He re-established and renewed the human state, and by His own incarnation He bestowed on human nature the supranatural grace of deification." p. 246
"Since the devil is jealous both of us and of God, he persuaded man by guile that God jealous of him (cf. Gen. 3:5), and so made him break the commandment. The devil is jealous of God lest His power should be seen actually divinizing man: and he is jealous of man lest through the attainment of virtue man should become a personal participant in divine glory."
"To reconcile us with the Father, at His Father's wish the Son deliberately gave Himself to death on our behalf so that, just as He consented to be dishonoured for our sake by assuming our passions, to an equal degree He might glorify us with the beauty of His own divinity." p. 248
"And as in His providence He became man, so He deified us by grace, in this way teaching us not only to cleave to one another naturally and to love others spiritually as ourselves, but also, like God, to be more concerned for others than for ourselves…" p.263
"Everyone who does not apply himself to the spiritual contemplation of Holy Scripture has, Judaic-wise, also rejected both the natural and the written law; and he is ignorant of the law of grace which confers deification on those who are obedient to it. He who understands the written law in a literal manner does not nourish his soul with the virtues. He who does not grasp the inner principles of created beings fails to feast his intellect on the manifold wisdom of God. And he who is ignorant of the great mystery of the new grace does not rejoice in the hope of future deification. Thus failure to contemplate the written law spiritually results in a dearth (lack, an indequate supply) of the divine wisdom to be apprehended in the natural law; and this in its turn is followed by a complete ignorance of the deification given by grace according to the new mystery." p. 267
"A crown of goodness (cf. Ps. 65:11) is a pure faith, adorned with eloquent doctrine, and with spiritual principles and intellections, as if with precious stones, and set as it were on the head of the devout intellect. Or rather, a crown of goodness is the Logos of God Himself, who encircles the intellect as if it were a head, protecting it with manifold forms of providence and judgement - that is, with mastery of the passions that lie within our control and with patient endurance of those we suffer against our will; and who makes this same intellect more beautiful by enabling it to participate in the grace of deification." p.271
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Whatever.
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Post Edited (Love's Child) : 8/7/2008 7:10:01 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 8/7/2008 7:43 AM (GMT -6) |   | Stupid me. I don't want to let this go...
Tom: There's one agent responsible for the exercise of both wills. That's why I'm fine with positing two wills. But as soon as you locate the determining agency for the human will in a created "I" not identical to the uncreated "I" of the Son, you will appear Nestorian to me. So when you say as you do a few posts back that the only way to posit two wills in Christ is to say the human will is "freely obedient" to the divine will, I'm going to object and say, "Well, what can 'freely' mean here IF it's the case that the Son is the only agent doing the determining of the human will?" If you think the human, non-divine, created "I" is that "agent" (that you're just not 'calling' a 'person') freely deciding to align his will to that of the Son's, then we have problems, because then you have at least a separable human individual (identical to what each of us is) in addition to the Son.
1) Our faith is the the divine person (God the Son) took on a full human nature...meaning EVERYTHING that a "human individual" would have, just without "gnomic distance" from whence the created person emerges. Everything. Human spirit (possesing human freedom) Human mind. Human body. Human ego-development. Human mind/brain interpenetration.
2) The divine will is the ONE will of the Trinity...which is the will of the Father. (Please recheck the "Emptiness of Christ" piece by Fr. Stephen again) Christ's divine/uncreated personal will was truly "one" with the Father's Will without any "learning" or "effort". It was what it was. Christ's human/non-divine/created will...in it's human freedom...FOLLOWED this "oneness of will" of his divine will...in being perfectly obedient to the Father's will as he understood it with his human development and understanding (via Scripture, worship, "growing in wisdom and stature" etc). All we have to do to confirm this is to look at a) the Wilderness Temptations and how he withstood that, b) his own claims about doing EVERYTHING to, for, and by the Father, c) Gethsemane, and finally d) the testimony in Hebrews about how Christ LEARNED "obedience" ...
During the days of Jesus' fromlife on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the One who could save him death (GOD THE FATHER), and he was heard because of his reverent submission (TO GOD THE FATHER). Son though he was, he learned obedience (TO GOD THE FATHER'S WILL) from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
As I understand things, all this is historic Christian faith, dear Turtle.
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Post Edited (Love's Child) : 8/7/2008 7:49:21 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 8/7/2008 7:58 AM (GMT -6) |   | Lord Christ...help me.
Ok...
Jesus shows US the way to deification. We can make the SAME KIND OF MOVEMENT that Jesus' human spirit had with the Holy Spirit...even though we do NOT have the same "personal will". We are NOT divine persons...additions to the Trinity. We are, at best, emergent, self-reflective, self-determining "realities" (Tom! You agreed to attributive monism/mentalism as LONG AS the "emergent realities" (not merely properties) were truly self-determining.) that are hypostatically inherent in the Eternal Uncreated Logos. But, because the Logos assumed all essential dimensions of a human individual (ENHYPOSTASIS)...we KNOW that our spirits can "move in the Spirit" just like Jesus' did. This is simply Christology applied to anthropology, in my mind.
Very truly I tell you, all who have faith in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
Sending of the Holy Spirit, baby.
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Post Edited (Love's Child) : 8/7/2008 8:27:10 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 8/7/2008 8:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | All Kallistos Ware. Orthodox Way.
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“On the walls of the catacombs in Rome there is sometimes painted the figure of a woman praying, the Orans. She is gazing towards heaven, her open hands raised with the palms upwards. This is one of the most ancient of Christian ikons. Whom does she represent—the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Church, or the soul at prayer? Or perhaps all three at once? However, it is interpreted, this ikon depicts a basic Christian attitude: that of invocation or epiclesis, of calling down or waiting upon the Holy Spirit.
There are three main positions that we can assume with our hands, and each has its own symbolic meaning. Our hands may be closed, our fists clenched, as a gesture of defiance or in an effort to grasp and to hold fast, thus expressing aggression or fear. At the other extreme our hands may hang listlessly by our sides, neither defiant nor receptive. Or else, as a third possibility, our hands may be lifted up like those of the Orans, no longer clenched by open, no longer listless but ready to receive the gifts of the Spirit. An all-important lesson upon the spiritual Way is understanding how to unclench our fists and to open our hands.
Each hour and minute we are to make our own the action of the Orans: invisibly we are to lift our opened hands to heaven, saying to the Spirit, Come.
The whole aim of the Christian life is to be a Spirit-bearer, to live in the Spirit of God, to breathe the Spirit of God.”
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Only a few Christians in each generation become elders, and still fewer become fools in Christ. But all the baptized without exception are Spirit-bearers. "Do you know realize or understand your own nobility?" ask The Homilies of St. Macarius. "...Each of you has been anointed with the heavenly Chrism, and has become a Christ by grace; each is king and prophet of the heavenly mysteries."
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Just as the Spirit sends the Son at the Annunciation, the Baptism, and the Transfiguration, and just as the Son in his turn sends the Spirit at Pentecost, so after Pentecost it is the Spirit's task to bear witness to Christ, rendering the risen Lord ever present among us. If the aim of the Incarnation is the sending of the Spirit at Pentecost, [then] the aim of Pentecost is the continuing of Christ's Incarnation within the life of the Church. This is precisely what the Spirit does at the epiclesis in the Eucharistic consecration; and this consecratory epiclesis serves as a model and paradigm for what is happening throughout our whole life in Christ.
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"Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matt 18:20). How is Christ present in our midst? Through the Holy Spirit. "Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world" (Matt 28:20) How is Christ always with us? Through the Holy Spirit. Because of the Comforter's presence in our heart, we do not simply know Christ at fourth of fifth hand, as a distant figure from long ago, about whom we possess factual information through written records; but we know him directly, here and now, in the present, as our personal savior and our friend. With the Apostle Thomas, we can affirm "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). We do not merely say "Christ was born"--once, very long ago; we say "Christ is born"--now, at this moment, in my own heart. We do not say merely "Christ died" but "Christ died for me". We do not say merely "Christ rose" but "Christ is risen"--he lives now, for me and in me. This immediacy and personal directness in our relationship with Jesus is precisely the work of the Spirit."
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Post Edited (Love's Child) : 8/7/2008 8:20:51 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 8/7/2008 8:10 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thanks for the google-book links.
Love's Child said...
For anyone who cares...
"...freely obedient..."
Let everyone be persuaded in their own minds. For real...
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 8/7/2008 8:24 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Hey, Bruce. Is what I'm saying making sense to YOU? Am I off on something from what you see?
This really does just seem pretty standard. What I'm saying has already been said, over and again, in the Church...hasn't it?

See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. | | Back to Top | | |
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