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|  Similitude Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2004 Total Posts : 4968 | Posted 9/26/2008 12:12 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
Here's my interpretation of Christ's teaching on divorce. You guys tell me if you think it's plausible. Let's look at all the biblical data I'm going to try to explain, and then I'll give you my synthesis of it.
1) Christ, per some gospel texts (at least one occurrence in Luke), says that those who put away their spouses and marry again commit adultery.
2) In other gospel texts (two occurrences in Matthew), Christ says if a husband puts away his wife for any cause other than fornication and remarries, he commits adultery.
3) Hosea the prophet was told by God to put away his adulterous wife, which also symbolized the fact that God was divorcing Israel for their idolatry, which was likened by God to adultery.
4) And Christ said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law OR PROPHETS until heaven and earth passed away (i.e., until all was fulfilled).
5) Christ, in Matthew 19. said that from the beginning, divorce was not provided for, and that Moses allowed it for the hardness of heart. This chapter follows immediately Matthew's account of a parable where Christ says he who does not forgive will not be forgiven.
6) Paul claims that the Lord (I assume he's referring to Christ's teachings) commands that believers remain married, and that if they are separated, to remain separated AND unmarried until they can be reconciled TO ONE ANOTHER.
7) Paul adds a new piece of information that Christ did not address--that if an unbelieving spouse wishes to leave, let them leave as we are called unto PEACE.
8) Paul claims that we are bound to our spouses by, for one thing, the duty to render due benevolence to one another lest we be tempted to commit fornication. He even advised those who had no such "burning" to remain single because of an "imminent distress" that he believed would cause complications for married people. This seems to be not so much of a moral adivsory as one that was quite practical. It may have been the same thing that Christ alluded to when he said that many "make themselves eunuchs on account of the kingdom of God" when his disciples said it was unprofitable to marry if the only "out" was fornication. I.e., Christ may have been agreeing with Paul's point that those who do not "burn" might very well be better off to remain single because of the extra problems that marriage can result in under certain kinds of tribulations that can be experienced.
OK, how do we synthesize all this. In the first place, the fact that Paul says he is adding teaching that Christ did not provide makes it seems reasonable to suppose that Christ was not trying to be exhaustive in his teaching about divorce. In specific, much of Christ's doctrine was given as corrections to the false teaching of the scribes and Pharisees. So here's my synthesis, which I think reasonably reconciles all the passages.
First, 7) and 3) are related. An unbelieving spouse who wants to leave may do so. But a spouse who is an habitual adulterer/fornicator, as Hosea's wife was, has practically the same implications, for both Christ and Paul seem to teach that habitual fornicators/adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God, as their lifestyle is compelling evidence that they have no true heart belief. The one caveat to this is Paul's claim, in 1 Cor. 5, that God's corrective discipline may result in death. But in any case, this latter would imply that a believer could not live INDEFINITELY in a state of habitual fornication/adultery. Paul even says that God will judge us if we don't judge ourselves LEST we be condemned with the world (1 Cor. 11). Thus, once a believer is convinced that his/her spouse is unbelieving, by word and/or life-style, and has no intentions of living in a peaceful marital state, the marriage is not binding.
This leaves to us the explanation of how to reconcile the more absolute sounding words of Christ with his seeming conditional ones. On the one hand Christ says divorce was not provided from the beginning and that Moses provided for it for the hardness of heart. On the other hand, he talks about the single case of fornication as grounds for divorce. The way to reconcile these is to see the contexts of the cases where Christ mentions the "cause" of fornication. The first is the Sermon where he is re-affirming the law and the prophets by contrasting his interpretation of them to that of the scribes and pharisees. The second is Matt. 19, right after his lesson about forgiving to BE forgiven.
These can be reconciled with each other and the other more absolute sounding passages as follows. Paul tells us to restore those that are overtaken in an offense with meekness CONSIDERING OURSELVES lest we also be tempted. The clear implication of this is that we are to forgive our spouses of adultery if that adultery is not an act of habitual fornication, as was that of Hosea's wife. For in that latter case, they weren't overtaken in an offense. Rather, they were doing it with no regard for right-relating.
Therefore, the context of Matthew 19 right after the lesson about forgiveness seems to be this:
Divorce was not provided for from the beginning. But for two professing believers in the Torah, Moses allowed divorce for the ONE specific cause of adultery, even when that adultery was a case of being "overtaken in sin", on account of the hardness of heart of the offended spouse. IOW, insomuch as the Torah was a CIVIL law for a society, allowances were provided so that in cases where there could only be a LESSER of evils, the lesser evil was permitted. Rember, if there were 2 or 3 witnesses to adultery, the option to divorce over the adultery wouldn't even have existed. This allowance for hardness of heart was given for a case where only the divorcing spouse had evidence of the adultery. There was no way to prove, with appropriate due process, who was right. But Christ is telling us that NO SUCH hardness of heart is tolerated for his disciples. We are to FORGIVE our spouses in such cases. Only when the adultery is analogous to that of Hosea's wife, where it is evidence of unbelief, can adultery be grounds for divorce for married believers. Indeed, Christ is claiming that his teaching on this matter was the very intent of Moses from the get-go. The Torah golden rule ENTAILS the duty to forgive, insomuchas we wish to be forgiven.
So, in conclusion, when Christ speaks absolutely, he is meaning just what Paul says he means--that believers are NOT be be divorced under any circumstances. We are to FORGIVE! When he speaks of the exception of fornication, he is explaining what always was the ONLY grounds of divorce that Moses addressed, and that even that case was for the hardness of heart as a provision for a lesser of evils.
Of course, none of this even addresses physical abuse or such. These fall under the Hosea case. Habitual physical abusers will not inherit the kingdom of God and are, thus, covered under the unbelieving spouse case of being called UNTO PEACE. In short, when contextual intent is considered, all these passages are reconcilable in a plausible, coherent manner, to my mind. It simply involves a distinction between sinful behavior that is consistent with true heart belief, and which is therefore no ground for divorce, and that which is not.
Post Edited (Similtude) : 9/26/2008 12:51:43 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Similitude Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2004 Total Posts : 4968 | Posted 9/26/2008 4:30 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Good deal, D. I'm glad it makes some sense to you. I think I should reword that last sentence of mine, though, to say:
It simply involves a distinction between sinful behavior that is consistent with true heart belief, and which is therefore no ground for divorce because of our duty to forgive, and that behavior which is NEITHER consistent with true heart belief NOR that peace unto which we are called. For if the unbelieving spouse is willing to live in that peace unto which we are called, their unbelief, per se, is no grounds for divorce.
These considerations require judgment on the part of each of us, as only general principles are provided, if I'm right in my understanding. There is no hard fast rule we can apply in every circumstance. We have to do the best we can in faith, doing that which we are fully persuaded in. Post Edited (Similtude) : 9/26/2008 4:34:57 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  BBBCanada Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 9/26/2008 11:37 PM (GMT -6) |   | Years ago on these boards I remember Greg talking about divorce using the analogy of a dead horse. Made such an impact on me. Basically his idea was, say you have a horse that dies and you keep holding on to it. After a while, that horse is going decompose and sooner or later is going to infect you and make you sick. Well, some marriages are like that. They are dead and at some point you need to let them go or else they are going to infect you. This is how I see Christ being. There was a certain liberality he had when it came to divorce. Not making legalisms either way. You could liken the Hosea incident as describe above to this.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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 |  Corey Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1893 | Posted 9/27/2008 4:10 AM (GMT -6) |   | As far as I'm concerned, and with no little amount of personal reflection and appropriation, I simply don't believe there is such a thing as a "dead horse" in this regard. That's the whole point of the cross! If God can over come THAT, overcoming a dead-horse marriage ain't no thang. There WILL be a time when God has overcome this misrelation as well. Especially if we accept universalism, there will be a time of perfect reconciliation to every "each other." At that time, I want to hear both from God and my wife, "Well done, good and faithful." It all comes down to the fact that God NEVER quits us, and we're to be about the father's business, doing what we see him doing. So I simply will never quit my wife, regardless. Any and all evil is temporary, and beauty is coming! She may leave me, she may divorce me, she may cheat, who knows. That doesn't change the essential nature of love. This too will pass, but love endures. Faith, hope and love! I see it! I know it! I'm determined to be found beautiful by God -- and by her -- on that Day. God is my one love, and Anna is my one focus of that love, for my whole life.
Go ahead, sagaciously tell me I'm naive.
Thy kingdom come: thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Post Edited (Corey) : 9/27/2008 4:44:06 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Corey Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1893 | Posted 9/27/2008 4:32 AM (GMT -6) |   | Jeff: Thus, once a believer is convinced that his/her spouse is unbelieving, by word and/or life-style, and has no intentions of living in a peaceful marital state, the marriage is not binding.
Corey: All it says is to let them go. This text doesn't say my marriage is no longer binding -- on me. If my wife leaves me, it is my vow to nonetheless remain faithful to her alone the rest of my life. Because love doesnt' quit, period.
That being said... I understand remarriage happens, and I'm not condemning that in those cases that BOTH person's hearts have become hardened toward their first spouse. But I don't see how the hardening of one's heart toward another is ever God's will. But where it has already happened, I believe God would prefer THEN that we learn to un-harden in relation to another. So, as a conciliation, I believe God will bless a subsequent marriage, but more beautiful than that is when one chooses by faith to remain unhardened in the face of grievous marital offense.
Post Edited (Corey) : 9/27/2008 9:55:49 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Corey Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1893 | Posted 9/27/2008 4:59 AM (GMT -6) |   | Jeff: Habitual physical abusers will not inherit the kingdom of God...
Corey: You KNOW this to be true? I don't. And then to use this as a justification for hardening of one's heart... come on!
Yes, of course, separate from the jerk. Yes, of course, make yourself and and your kids safe! But.... this is not grounds for the hardening of your heart toward that abuser. You should love them from afar, but you should love them. This doesn't not release you from your vow of faithfulness.
Post Edited (Corey) : 9/27/2008 5:03:23 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  BBBCanada Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 9/27/2008 9:46 AM (GMT -6) |   | Is not the actual divorce the "funeral" of a dead marriage? Paul calls us to live in peace. So he allows for divorce. Jesus allows it. I believe God CAN reconcile relationships. But sometimes those things don't happen for hardness of heart. The trinitarian relational love that is suppose to be exemplified in the relationship is not there and probably never WILL be there. Only that couple can tell that.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/27/2008 10:50 AM (GMT -6) |   | Let me share this. I believe God calls us to peace. I believe God does the best he can with the situations in which we place ourselves. And sometimes, that may mean separation and dissolution of a marriage.
I know this: If I would have stayed in that marriage, I probably would not be here talking to you all.
If you know what I mean.
Straight up.
I just praise God that my ex-wife and I are still alive.
Yeah...
God calls us to peace and sanity.
Does God LIKE divorce or want divorce? Of course not.
Does God deal with our broken realities, forming what he can our of the shards of our lives? Sure.
That's what I hear Jeff's stuff saying.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Corey Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1893 | Posted 9/27/2008 10:54 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/27/2008 11:05 AM (GMT -6) |   | What I centrally hear you saying, Corey, is that there is never an excuse not to continue to "love your neighbor" who is your spouse. Though separation and dissolution of the marriage may be necessary (even Jesus gives room for this), hardness of heart should NEVER exist between the Christian and the spouse that had been taken in marriage...regardless of the issue or the outcome. Your spouse is PRIMARILY your "neighbor" before she's your wife, as I see it. The wife status can change, the "neighbor" status cannot. This is how we "never quit" on God or our neighbor...meaning our spouse.
Is this somewhat right?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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 |  BBBCanada Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 9/27/2008 11:13 AM (GMT -6) |   | Yep.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/27/2008 11:45 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thought for consideration...just thinking eschatologically...
Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question. "Teacher," they said, "Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were seven brothers. The first one married a woman and died childless. The second and then the third married her, and in the same way the seven died, leaving no children. Finally, the woman died too. Now then, at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?"
Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
Some of the teachers of the law responded, "Well said, teacher!" And no one dared to ask him any more questions.
As I see it, we no longer operate purely by "human categories" in Christ. (Gal 3, 2 Cor. 5) We "love God" and "love our neighbor as ourselves" and experience the eternity of God as we do so...here on earth...while we are "married" or "unmarried."
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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 |  Corey Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1893 | Posted 9/27/2008 11:46 AM (GMT -6) |   | Yes, it includes what you described, but marriage -- even failed ones -- remains qualitatively different different than the love of neighbor. It's as if God knows that we really suck at loving our neighbor, so he says, "Okay, how 'bout you figure out how to love just one then? Whatever she does, love her, as I do. Let's see if you will follow me in this smaller task. Let's see if you understand enough of my faithfulness to you to live out faithfulness to her."
Post Edited (Corey) : 9/27/2008 11:50:15 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/27/2008 11:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | Corey: Yes, it includes what you described, but marriage -- even failed ones -- remains qualitatively different different that the love of neighbor. It's as if God knows that we really suck at loving our neighbor, so he says, "Okay, how 'bout you figure out how to love just one then? Whatever she does, love her, as I do."
Right. We love as God loves. And when God "divorced" his people (for a time, admittedly), that didn't diminish his love for his people in the least in the midst of that necessary separation. Even though Jesus (and Paul) allows for dissolution of marriage in certain situations, that never overturns the Great Commandments for the married person.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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  |  Similitude Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2004 Total Posts : 4968 | Posted 9/27/2008 11:58 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Corey: All it says is to let them go. This text doesn't say my marriage is no longer binding -- on me. If my wife leaves me, it is my vow to nonetheless remain faithful to her alone the rest of my life. Because love doesnt' quit, period.
That being said... I understand remarriage happens, and I'm not condemning that in those cases that BOTH person's hearts have become hardened toward their first spouse. But I don't see how the hardening of one's heart toward another is ever God's will. But where it has already happened, I believe God would prefer THEN that we learn to un-harden in relation to another. So, as a conciliation, I believe God will bless a subsequent marriage, but more beautiful than that is when one chooses by faith to remain unhardened in the face of grievous marital offense.
Jeff: I think D has addressed the principle of my response. Just because a divorce occurs, that doesn't mean that the couple can justly harden their hearts to one another. For we are still NEIGHBORS. But in the same way that a believer's behavior can merit the cessation of certain types of fellowship with the local church, so too can a lack of a certain kind of peace merit a divorce or separation. None of this has anything to do with a hardening of the heart or an absolute lack of forgiveness. Hosea could have (and probably did) forgive his adulterous wife, but he committed no wrong in putting her away. His duty to render due benevolence was mute as she was getting those needs met independent of him. And those very relationships may have threatened the very physical health of both spouses.
Jeff: Habitual physical abusers will not inherit the kingdom of God...
Corey: You KNOW this to be true? I don't. And then to use this as a justification for hardening of one's heart... come on!
Jeff: We have to make judgments. I could say, if I was willing to be ludicrous, that all living humans are believers, and that those who deny that are just lying, but that believers CAN lie. All people have to make this judgement for themselves with the aid of scriptural statements about divine discipline, etc. That is what I mean when I say that what we are given is principles. We have to use judgment in discerning how to apply those principles. My particular judgment is that physical abusers and fornicators who show no remorse and evidence no visible discipline of the kinds scripture tells us God visits upon His own disobedient children ARE unbelievers. I could be dead wrong. I'm just making my own judgment on that matter. You have to make yours. Though we probably both agree that my ludicrous example above is, indeed, ludicrous. Though it truly is a logical possibility if we want to stretch the scriptural language to absurd lengths.
As for your dedication to your wife, I think that truly IS a beautiful thing. Paul does NOT say that allowing an unbeliever to go is equivalent to an allowance for re-marriage--that's true. But since he had just got through saying that believing spouses could NOT remarry if they had separated, the fact that the subject about allowing the unbeliever to go is brought up as a SEPARATE case, unaddressed by Christ, it may have a contextual implication that remarriage is allowed in that case. I"m not arguing hard and fast one way or the other. I just think it's a plausible logical possibility, given the case with Hosea. But I think waiting for reconcilation even in those cases is most definitely a beautiful thing. Because it may very well happen. And why not give it every chance when children are involed as well? And for believers, it's downright imperative, per Paul (and seemingly, Christ).
Post Edited (Similtude) : 9/27/2008 12:14:40 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/27/2008 12:14 PM (GMT -6) |   | Similtude: As for your [Corey] dedication to your wife, I think that truly IS a beautiful thing. Paul does NOT say that allowing an unbeliever to go is equivalent to an allowance for re-marriage--that's true. But since he had just got through saying that believing spouses could NOT remarry if they had separated, the fact that the subject about allowing the unbeliever to go is brought up as a SEPARATE case, unaddressed by Christ, it may have a contextual implication that remarriage is allowed in that case. I"m not arguing hard and fast one way or the other. I just think it's a plausible logical possibility, given the case with Hosea. But I think waiting for reconcilation even in those cases is most definitely a beautiful thing. Because it may very well happen. And why not give it every chance when children are involed as well? And for believers, it's downright imperative, per Paul (and seemingly, Christ).
Agreed.
I think this is why relying on the Spirit is ESSENTIAL with these things. Only God knows how much "possibility" lies for a particular type of human relationship. We've got to rely on Christ's Spirit, whichever way it takes us, admitting our sin and trusting his leading. He knows that we are "but dust"...
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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