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One Love
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| Posted 11/24/2008 2:06 PM (GMT -6) |   | Corey:
It felt incomplete. He left us hanging... he seemed to be saying that Chalcedon didn't offer coherent explanatory power, and that's because the authors held actually conflicting pictures of the Father and the Son. And of those two, he seemed to suggest that it was their picture of the Father which was off, as it was overly informed by greek categories. The participants at Chalcedon inherited notions of "normal" in regards to the Father that were false.
Yep. And that's what he believes. And on that basis, he said that he felt it best to look at everything through the lens of Jesus...and letting THAT define how we think of God. Start off the right way, as it were. That way, we wouldn't assume things like the divine impassibility, trying to fit Jesus into that view artificially.
Of course, I don't disagree with Christocentricity. I'm all over that. Unfortunately, one cannot take this stance effectively without 1) a good understanding of the distinction between person and nature...AND...2) taking ALL of who Christ-the-Logos is into account. I don't know if Greg does this well...which is why he ends up in functional monothelitism trying to keep the UNITY of Christ's Person.
Looking at Christ through the 1st seven Ecumenical councils, we see this is based NOT primarily on Greek metaphysics more than the LIVED EXPERIENCE of the 3 divine persons of the Trinity within the salvation of humanity seen in the lives of believers throughout history...and explaining things in those terms.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/24/2008 2:54:53 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 11/24/2008 3:53 PM (GMT -6) | |
| 11/23/2008 – Revolting Against Normal, Greg Boyd – sermon length is 49:53 minutes |
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Most of the time we try to fit Jesus into our culturally-accepted view of God, and the early Christians did the same thing. But Jesus doesn’t fit into our categories. As Kingdom people, we’re meant to follow Jesus’ example and revolt against what’s normal in our culture. Three disciplines that can help us are practicing God’s presence, fasting and community. |
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Audio - 6.01 mb
High-Quality Audio - 23.1 mb
Presentation Slides
| (I'll update this as the video becomes ready...)
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/24/2008 3:00:48 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 11/24/2008 4:13 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Hmmmm...
Anglicanism and Protestantism: accept #1-#6 with reservations
Many Protestants (especially those belonging to the magisterial traditions, such as Anglicans and Lutherans, or those, such as Methodists, that flow out of the Anglican tradition) accept the teachings of the first seven councils, but do not ascribe to the councils themselves the same authority as Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox do. The Thirty-Nine Articles show an example of this attitude: "General Councils ... when they be gathered together, forasmuch as they be an assembly of men, whereof all be not governed with the Spirit and word of God, they may err and sometime have erred, even in things pertaining to God. Wherefore things ordained by them as necessary to salvation have neither strength nor authority, unless it may be declared that they be taken out of Holy Scripture." The Lutheran World Federation, in ecumenical dialogues with the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople has affirmed all of the first seven councils as ecumenical and authoritative. Many Protestants do not accept Nicea II, which allows for the veneration of Icons. This includes the historical Lutheran position as evidenced by the effacing of statues throughout Germany during the time of Luther.
Some Protestants, including some fundamentalist and nontrinitarian churches, condemn the ecumenical councils for other reasons. Independency or congregationalist polity among Protestants involves the rejection of any governmental structure or binding authority above local congregations; conformity to the decisions of these councils is therefore considered purely voluntary and the councils are to be considered binding only insofar as those doctrines are derived from the Scriptures. Many of these churches reject the idea that anyone other than the authors of Scripture can directly lead other Christians by original divine authority; after the New Testament, they assert, the doors of revelation were closed and councils can only give advice or guidance, but have no authority. (OL's Note: Uh...this is pretty much Woodland. We are formally a Baptist General Conference church. And we never talk about the councils, confessions, or creeds very much. [Which was why I was kinda surprised that Greg even MENTIONED Chalcedon at all in his sermon!] Again, I've been on staff for years. I know this. ) They consider new doctrines not derived from the sealed canon of Scripture to be both impossible and unnecessary, whether proposed by church councils or by more recent prophets.
Supporters of the councils contend that the councils did not create new doctrines but merely elucidated doctrines already in Scripture that had gone unrecognized. Proponents often argue that the early councils serve as a good benchmark or tool for scriptural interpretation to guard against the individualistic or idiosyncratic interpretations of Bible that ultimately leads to schism. The thinking is that an ecumenical council representing the whole church is much less likely to misunderstand the voice of the Holy Spirit in expounding the Scriptures than is a handful of zealous believers. (OL's Note: Amen!)
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/24/2008 4:15:21 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 11/24/2008 8:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Actually...now that I really think about it, it kinda makes sense.
One of the things I noticed about Greg's Trinity and Process was how implicitly consonant it was with Maximus the Confessor's ideas...AND the Essence/Energies thing. That's why I asked him why he didn't use more EO in his stuff. Surprisingly, when I asked him about Maximus the Confessor, he didn't know who I was talking about. So, looking at all that, it makes sense that Greg wouldn't understand and/or appreciate Maximus' significant contribution to the Church in defending the Church against monothelitism and its theological ramifications for the life of faith. Or why the 6th Council is so important to the same.
But still... 
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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Tom
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| Posted 11/25/2008 10:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey: It felt incomplete. He left us hanging... he seemed to be saying that Chalcedon didn't offer coherent explanatory power...
Tom: More people than just Greg feel Chalcedon is incoherent, or if it's coherent, it's barely coherent and created as many problems as it got close to solving.
T | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/25/2008 11:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey: It felt incomplete. He left us hanging... he seemed to be saying that Chalcedon didn't offer coherent explanatory power...
Tom: More people than just Greg feel Chalcedon is incoherent, or if it's coherent, it's barely coherent and created as many problems as it got close to solving.
If it's so incoherent, how come I've learned to comprehend it (and it's reality continually changes my life)? Like for real. I was a solid memorialist before...and didn't give a damn about creeds, confessions, or liturgies. Greg and I SHARED a heavy relativization of the Councils. But that's because I didn't really comprehend them as much as I could have. Now, I BELIEVE in epicletic reality, inhomization, and deification...as well as what the Divien Liturgy really reveals (and conceals). And somehow then...Chalcedon makes perfect sense.
It's paradoxical...certainly. But NOT incoherent.
Maybe you have to be crazy to find it coherent.
Yeah...that's it.
PS: In Loder's "The Knight's Move", he has a whole chapter called "Complementarity and Christology: Kierkegaard and the Logic of Chalcedon." He straight up kills it. Maybe he's crazy too. 
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/25/2008 1:39:54 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 11/25/2008 11:58 AM (GMT -6) | | D: If it's so incoherent, how come I've learned to comprehend it?
T: Dang. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 11/25/2008 12:11 PM (GMT -6) | | D: It's paradoxical...certainly. But NOT incoherent.
C: The only one qualified to know the difference between a paradox and a contradiction is God himself, as he is the only one without our limited perspectives. As it is, to declare one thing a "paradox" and another a "contradiction" is a matter of preference. Tom made this point to me a long time ago, and I was persuaded. I didn't like it... but I believe he's right.
Yes. Only the Spirit of the God-Man Christ can reveal paradoxical truth, right?
Only the Spirit of Christ can bestow the "mind of Christ" that believers can have.
Only the Spirit of Christ can break the human being into living the "positive absurdity" of life in Christ (SK?)
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/25/2008 11:40:53 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 11/25/2008 12:15 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/25/2008 12:15 PM (GMT -6) | | D: If it's so incoherent, how come I've learned to comprehend it?
T: Dang.
Fill that quote. " (and it's reality continually changes my life)"
For me, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The simple fact of the matter is that the reality of Chalcedon has been LIFE SAVING for me. I'm not exaggerating. Understanding Chalcedon's importance has skyrocketed my understanding and appreciation for the Father's Love, Christ's Person, the Spirit's Reality and human existence.
So, it's not just satisfying on an intellectual level, but a deeply personal level. The knowledge of God's plan for the salvation of humanity.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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Tom
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| Posted 11/25/2008 12:18 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/25/2008 12:29 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/25/2008 1:49 PM (GMT -6) | | | The Spirit so radically expands the horizons of awareness, or space and time, of life and death (as noted by Calvin and others in the Reformed tradition such as Torrence and Barth), that such reductionistic notions become almost trivial. Thus, it should be stressed that the main thrust of 1 Cor. 2 is not negative but overwhelmingly affirmative. It is not to denegrate "nous" or mind but to proclaim what is in the 'nous Christou.' It is here that one sees and participates in "what eye has not seen and ear has not heard." What has not entered into the human mind, God has prepared for thos who love him. This is open to those whose spirits, in agreement with the Holy Spirit, search out the deep things of creation and of God, and whose relationship to God preserves the vital relationality that marks them as bearers of the image of God. To be endowed by the Holy Spirit with the 'nous Christou' is not other-worldly, but it is instead to percieve and to behold this world as if for the first time because it is knowing the world through [Christ] the Logos, the One through whom all things have been made. The natural order becomes, remarkably, the creation of God in which every moment is sustained by God's Grace alone.
James Loder. The Knight's Move. Page 49.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/25/2008 12:57:18 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 11/25/2008 1:50 PM (GMT -6) | | | On "paradoxical" living...
Alexei V. Nesteruk
Light from the East: Theology, Science, and the Eastern Orthodox Tradition
Page 28
"Detachment from Nature and the Love of Nature"
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Though fascinated by the natural world and appreciating its great beauty, the Fathers clearly understood that if the mind were to be distracted by the puzzles of nature and to consider them as ends in themselves, then the knowledge of nature would itself become an obstacle in trying to know God. Thus a tension was created between the appreciation of nature and the danger of being trapped by its investigation. On the one hand, the natural world is accepted and affirmed, while, on the other, it is renounced as having no meaning without its spiritual ground. The necessity to rise above nature in order to find God was always experienced as the difficulty of being detached from a natural world that at the same time was highly appreciated.
In the contemplation of the logoi of creation (Maximus) [OL's Note: which are inseparable from God the Logos , Christ], the Greek Fathers found an ingenious way of resolving this tension, freeing themselves from the demands of nature, on the one hand, while enjoying nature, on the other. They never experienced any fear of nature, which was the creation of a God "who loves mankind." Their detachment from the material world provided a paradoxical freedom to treat this world in a way that never subverted their spiritual vision of reality, that is, their faith. The secret of the Greek Fathers' freedom to enjoy nature was their detachment from it. Their spiritual vision of nature freed them to love and appreciate nature without condemning its created origin and without fearing its demands, for the natural world, like all of creation, is good because everything done by God through his Word (Logos) is good.
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This is how to "practice Divine Presence"...contemplating God the Logos, through his "logoi" everywhere and everywhen!
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/25/2008 12:54:56 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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