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CalvinnHobbes
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 88
 
   Posted 12/13/2008 1:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Many Christians past and present have considered God to be atemporal/eternal. In other words, God stands completely outside of time and doesn't undergo or experience any change or duration/time of any kind whatsoever. Some of these thinkers have held that God forever remains atemporal (e.g., those following Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, etc.). Some of them consider God to be atemporal in the absence of creation, but temporal from the point of creation on (I think especially of contemporary apologist/philosopher William Lane Craig).
 
What do we make of an atemporal intra-trinitarian relationship? I can at least make some sense of an atemporal intra-trinitarian relation, but I struggle to find any such thing worthy of the term relationship. I suspect such a God would make a better triangle than a trinity. What is an atemporal, static relationship that lacks any sort of relating? The quick answer, I suppose, is that I'm asking questions well beyond my pay grade here, but I'd like to probe a bit deeper.
 
Thoughts? hmmm


"There is no fit search after truth which does not, first of all, begin to live the truth which it knows." ~Horace Bushnell

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Corey
Five with a Four-wing




Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
 
   Posted 12/13/2008 5:49 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is one point on which Tom and I disagree. Here I tend to be persuaded by Craig; I'm more bothered by the implication that an actual infinite sequence of events has been traversed to arrive at the present moment. It's less unthinkable to me to suppose that God could satisfyingly relate within godself in a sort of eternal moment before the dance begins. There's at least a sort of logical priority that the structure of the trinity must exist before the members can relate creatively.

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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 12/13/2008 11:24 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
C&H: What do we make of an atemporal intra-trinitarian relationship?
 
Jeff: I can't make any sense of it all. To me, the most fundamental thing about persons is consciousness. But I have no idea what consciousness even means without the relations before and after. I have no categories to even conceive of it. Thus, atemporal consciousness is a meaningless phrase to me. There is a reason why philosophers speak of a "stream" of consciousness.


 

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CalvinnHobbes
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 88
 
   Posted 12/13/2008 12:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Corey: I'm more bothered by the implication that an actual infinite sequence of events has been traversed to arrive at the present moment.

Shane: Does this kalaam-ian concern look the same if we're not talking about a sequence of physical events?

Corey: It's less unthinkable to me to suppose that God could satisfyingly relate within godself in a sort of eternal moment before the dance begins.

Shane: See, I find this more unthinkable than an infinite regress of spiritual relating, at least if the trinitarian community is to be anything more than static states of mind in some kind of geometrical relation. But again, shouldn't there be something more to a genuine interpersonal relationship? What makes God more than a really neat idea here?

Corey: There's at least a sort of logical priority that the structure of the trinity must exist before the members can relate creatively.

Shane: Certainly, but to what extent is the notion of relating creatively in a static, atemporal situation even meaningful?

Thanks for the thoughts, both of you. I appreciate them.

Shane


"There is no fit search after truth which does not, first of all, begin to live the truth which it knows." ~Horace Bushnell

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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 12/14/2008 6:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
interesting, and well expressed


(o)

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